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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > What the heck, Shiv & Terry fix bog at same time whos is better



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      09-16-2009, 02:05 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com View Post
So now you think its easier to keep the pressure differential under 4psi than it is to keep it under 6-10psi? LOL. For consistency in testing and to avoid funny business lets just agree to only use the stock diverter valves.

Mike
I for one, can attest to the drop of boost pressure without this feature even with forge DVs with yellow springs....
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      09-16-2009, 02:10 PM   #68
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I for one, can attest to the drop of boost pressure without this feature even with forge DVs with yellow springs....
Yep... as seen on the video I posted yesterday. Without our fix, it drops to 0psi between shifts just like with stock bypass valves. With the fix, it drops to ~10psi.

As you know, the secret isn't in the spring rate. It's in keeping the physical triggering conditions from occurring in the first place. And since the bypass valve is a mechanically driven device, we can't do that directly through piggyback tuning. We just have to create the right condition through boost control, throttle activation and ignition timing offsets.

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      09-16-2009, 02:13 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by jpsimon View Post
Did Terry ever pick up a 6MT car?
As far as I know BMS has an automatic 135i and an automatic 335i. Probably explains why their automatic mapping has always been so much better. But I have a manual 335i and have been helping with the MT changes/developments lately.

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      09-16-2009, 02:15 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
Mike-- What are you talking about?
Really?

To bring you in the loop, heavier springs require a greater pressure differential to open, between the charge pipe in front of the throttle body and diaphragm on top of the diverter valve. When we're talking about tuning a "no lift shift" as you put it, where the DV is intended to stay closed during the shift, it is much more challenging to keep the pressure differential below 4psi (stock DV levels) than those of heavier springs (aftermarket DV).

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      09-16-2009, 02:24 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com View Post
Really?

To bring you in the loop, heavier springs require a greater pressure differential to open, between the charge pipe in front of the throttle body and diaphragm on top of the diverter valve. When we're talking about tuning a "no lift shift" as you put it, where the DV is intended to stay closed during the shift, it is much more challenging to keep the pressure differential below 4psi (stock DV levels) than those of heavier springs (aftermarket DV).

Mike
Thanks for bringing me in the loop. Yes, tuning is challenging. And in some cases (ie, when you can't read things like actual throttle position, clutch position, etc,.) is downright impossible. And yes, we see 10psi min during the shift with even the stock diverter valves.

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      09-16-2009, 02:40 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
Thanks for bringing me in the loop. Yes, tuning is challenging. And in some cases (ie, when you can't read things like actual throttle position, clutch position, etc,.) is downright impossible. And yes, we see 10psi min during the shift with even the stock diverter valves.

Shiv
You and Adrian act like the throttle blade position is some great mystery. Given the same parameters it always gives you the same position. And who needs clutch when you have rate of gain on RPM? Anyway like I said in the beginning, it may just be a case of two methods to achieve the same goal. Our customers on the track or in Mexico will ultimately decide which method works best.

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      09-16-2009, 02:46 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com View Post
You and Adrian act like the throttle blade position is some great mystery. Given the same parameters it always gives you the same position. And who needs clutch when you have rate of gain on RPM? Anyway like I said in the beginning, it may just be a case of two methods to achieve the same goal. Our customers on the track or in Mexico will ultimately decide which method works best.

Mike
Mike Shiv has already said he would take me up on my offer to do the comparison on my stock e92xi MT are you interested see my previous post. I am serious and also will be buying the winners system look forward to working with you soon.
regards,
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      09-16-2009, 02:55 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com View Post
You and Adrian act like the throttle blade position is some great mystery. Given the same parameters it always gives you the same position. And who needs clutch when you have rate of gain on RPM? Anyway like I said in the beginning, it may just be a case of two methods to achieve the same goal. Our customers on the track or in Mexico will ultimately decide which method works best.

Mike
This is what cracks me up about how Terry goes about things. How can he assume that every and all current and future DME software versions have the same actual throttle behavior? His bogfix logic is based upon an assumption of where the actual throttle is, given just the 3 inputs that the jb3 can read (boost, applied TPS and rpm). Do you see what I'm getting at?

Cheers
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      09-16-2009, 02:59 PM   #75
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      09-16-2009, 03:04 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by inthemiddle View Post
I for one, can attest to the drop of boost pressure without this feature even with forge DVs with yellow springs....
Don't blame the DVs, it's just bad tuning. No matter what DVs you have.

However, with fixed tuning the yellow springs enable you to hold boost really well during the shift.
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      09-16-2009, 03:19 PM   #77
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Looks like the legendary BMS double-speak/obfuscation machine is running a full court press.
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      09-16-2009, 04:03 PM   #78
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I forgot what this thread was actually about...
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      09-16-2009, 04:17 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by jippii ensio View Post
Don't blame the DVs, it's just bad tuning. No matter what DVs you have.

However, with fixed tuning the yellow springs enable you to hold boost really well during the shift.
I wasn't blaming the DVs ... just pointing out that Mike's request to test only with stock DVs is not needed..... pointing out as Shiv's video demonstrates, that without the new map/logic, boost still drops... regardless of having the upgraded DVs....

I also wouldn't say bad tuning.... just not yet fully enhanced tuning (as i anxiously await the release of the new maps, and am totally happy with current maps)
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      09-16-2009, 04:35 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by inthemiddle View Post
I wasn't blaming the DVs ... just pointing out that Mike's request to test only with stock DVs is not needed..... pointing out as Shiv's video demonstrates, that without the new map/logic, boost still drops... regardless of having the upgraded DVs....

I also wouldn't say bad tuning.... just not yet fully enhanced tuning (as i anxiously await the release of the new maps, and am totally happy with current maps)
You must have misunderstood the conversation. Everybody agrees on that the boost drops with bad tuning no matter what DVs you have.

The outcome with good tuning depends on the DVs and the springs used. So testing the tunes with the same DVs is obviously better than testing the tunes with different DVs.

The fix/no fix is the major difference. However DVs have a small effect as well.
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      09-16-2009, 04:43 PM   #81
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Shiv - but is the new procede compatible with mac?

very interested in newest version, will it work when i swap to my2010 335?

thanks
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      09-16-2009, 05:37 PM   #82
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Mike Shiv has already said he would take me up on my offer to do the comparison on my stock e92xi MT are you interested see my previous post. I am serious and also will be buying the winners system look forward to working with you soon.
regards,
Michael
Shiv is the manufacturer of the PROcede, so its easy for him to give them away for marketing if you ask him. I'm a distributor so I don't have that luxury. Nor would be be fair to the thousands of JB customers who ordered as normal. But we do offer a 14 day satisfaction guarantee if you'd like to give the JB3 a shot!

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      09-16-2009, 05:40 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
This is what cracks me up about how Terry goes about things. How can he assume that every and all current and future DME software versions have the same actual throttle behavior? His bogfix logic is based upon an assumption of where the actual throttle is, given just the 3 inputs that the jb3 can read (boost, applied TPS and rpm). Do you see what I'm getting at?

Cheers
Shiv
I'm not a tuner but I think you just like to make things more complicated than they need to be.

This really isn't rocket science. If the DME boost is below the target boost, and the gas pedal is pushed in 100%, the throttle is 100% open until close to redline. When you detect a reduction in the rate of change of RPM AND the gas pedal value drops, a manual shift is taking place. If the gas pedal value
does not drop, an automatic shift is taking place.

If the DME intervenes to cut boost due to loss of traction, overboost, etc, you'll see it in the TMAP input and solenoid duty cycle values. Reading the throttle blade position seems not nearly as useful as the DME target boost would be in terms of overall boost control logic. But the JB3 is designed in such a way that we never need to know the exact target, just within 1psi or so. It is designed to work without that information, just like your REV1 is.

I suppose much of these details are of no interest to the general forum. Really all that matters is that it works well. There are currently 109 people testing 1.4 beta R8.3 and feedback among manual drivers has been very positive.

Mike
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      09-16-2009, 06:23 PM   #84
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Easy test

All this complicated testing talk....All we need is 2 willing 6mt cars. And say 4 good N54 6mt drivers.
Put shiv and terrys best new units in the cars. Let them test independently with out talking to one another. Film there reactions and vote on witch car better fixed the bogggggy man. If I ran both cars I could tell in a couple runs weather the fix is bull or the cats meow. And anyone else who is a DRIVER can tell also.
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      09-16-2009, 06:44 PM   #85
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Looks like the legendary BMS double-speak/obfuscation machine is running a full court press.
So what does that make you, besides the most epic drama queen I've run across on automotive forums to date?
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      09-16-2009, 06:46 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com View Post

I'm not a tuner but I think you just like to make things more complicated than they need to be.

This really isn't rocket science. If the DME boost is below the target boost, and the gas pedal is pushed in 100%, the throttle is 100% open until close to redline. When you detect a reduction in the rate of change of RPM AND the gas pedal value drops, a manual shift is taking place. If the gas pedal value
does not drop, an automatic shift is taking place.

If the DME intervenes to cut boost due to loss of traction, overboost, etc, you'll see it in the TMAP input and solenoid duty cycle values. Reading the throttle blade position seems not nearly as useful as the DME target boost would be in terms of overall boost control logic. But the JB3 is designed in such a way that we never need to know the exact target, just within 1psi or so. It is designed to work without that information, just like your REV1 is.

I suppose much of these details are of no interest to the general forum. Really all that matters is that it works well. There are currently 109 people testing 1.4 beta R8.3 and feedback among manual drivers has been very positive.

Mike
Not really wanting to pick on you, but I wouldn't have the jewels to engage a medical specialist in a conversation and then presume to explain his specialty to him.

But that's just me. Continue if you must.
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      09-16-2009, 06:49 PM   #87
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So what does that make you, besides the most epic drama queen I've run across on automotive forums to date?
It makes me happy knowing that I bug the bejesus out of you.
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      09-16-2009, 06:52 PM   #88
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It makes me happy knowing that I bug the bejesus out of you.
Doesn't really bug me that much. You are quite good at stirring the pot, which honestly is needed from time to time.
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