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      10-26-2009, 12:39 PM   #45
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Let's look at the evidence.

- The hard part about using anthrax as a weapon is the 'weaponization' of the samples not obtaining the samples. We did not transfer weaponized anthrax to Iraq.

- The Iraqis never used anthrax, botulism, or any other bio weapon against Iran. They used only chemical weapons.

What evidence do you have to support your idea of why we allowed the transfer?
And you sold them helicopters with sprayers on them for crop use only.

Just to make sure I've got your world view right, anything Democrats in power say is a lie and anything Republicans say is the truth?
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      10-26-2009, 12:53 PM   #46
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And you sold them helicopters with sprayers on them for crop use only.

Just to make sure I've got your world view right, anything Democrats in power say is a lie and anything Republicans say is the truth?
The Iraqi's generally used artillery and air dropped bombs for their chemical attacks. Spraying from helicopters is not a normal method of dispersing chemical weapons unless you can get your helicopters deep enough that you do not risk spraying your own guys.

And no, when Bill Clinton said Saddam was a threat and was tied to al Qaeda he was telling the truth. He also was telling the truth when he said he raised taxes too much.
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      10-26-2009, 01:14 PM   #47
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The Iraqi's generally used artillery and air dropped bombs for their chemical attacks. Spraying from helicopters is not a normal method of dispersing chemical weapons unless you can get your helicopters deep enough that you do not risk spraying your own guys.

And no, when Bill Clinton said Saddam was a threat and was tied to al Qaeda he was telling the truth. He also was telling the truth when he said he raised taxes too much.
a quote from Dr. Stephen Bryen "Halabja is a perfect example of what you do with helicopters filled with chemicals."
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      10-26-2009, 01:35 PM   #48
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a quote from Dr. Stephen Bryen "Halabja is a perfect example of what you do with helicopters filled with chemicals."
I do not know who Dr. Bryen is but the attacks on Halabja was conducted by fixed wing aircraft dropping bombs along with artillery.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/d...00/4304853.stm

http://www.terrorismcentral.com/Libr.../ChemIraq.html

http://www.hrw.org/legacy/reports/1991/IRAQ913.htm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2855139.stm
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      10-26-2009, 01:48 PM   #49
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Let's see, maybe Iraq had been considered a threat since they invaded Kuwait and had to be forcibly removed. Maybe 9/11 changed the risk the US was willing to accept. Maybe the belief that terrorists were more interested in making a statement than in causing mass casualties was no longer operative. Maybe given this new reality, the threat posed by a tyrant who had a long history of supporting terrorists, a long history of developing and using the types of weapons that if used in a terror attack could make 9/11 look like a traffic accident, was suspected (by everyone) of maintaining stocks of those weapons, and had proven himself impervious to the most stringent sanctions ever imposed by the international community was a threat the US could no longer tolerate.

Makes more sense than oil.
Any yet you sit idly by while North Korea and Pakistan wave their military might in your face. All a bunch of lip service if you ask me. Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, had no WMD's, their military was a joke, etc. Its all about the US securing resources in the region aka oil. The fact that 9/11 happened was exactly what Cheney needed to invade Iraq to get a foothold in the region under the guise of 'terrorism' and you lap it up like gospel. Afghanistan and Pakistan are the center of terrorism but all but forgotten by the US.


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That is their prerogative. Don't bitch at us because we made a different decision.
See most nations consider the future impact of its peoples needs and that of other nations.


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No we are going to get environmental lectures from the guy with the 300hp sub-compact?
No one is lecturing anyone about the environment...do you have a guilty conscience or something.
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      10-26-2009, 02:02 PM   #50
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Any yet you sit idly by while North Korea and Pakistan wave their military might in your face. All a bunch of lip service if you ask me. Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, had no WMD's, their military was a joke, etc. Its all about the US securing resources in the region aka oil. The fact that 9/11 happened was exactly what Cheney needed to invade Iraq to get a foothold in the region under the guise of 'terrorism' and you lap it up like gospel. Afghanistan and Pakistan are the center of terrorism but all but forgotten by the US.
Pakistan and north Korea? Are you suggesting we invade Pakistan? The last I checked the Pakistani government was fighting al Qaeda under very difficult political circumstances. Does Pakistan also have a history of using chemical weapons? Have they ignored a dozen or so UN resolutions ordering them to disarm?

I'm all for blasting north Korea's nuclear and missile capability. Unfortunately the war crazed Bush chose to follow the advice you seem to believe he should have followed re: Iraq. Multilateral negotiations and pressure from the "international community" have led to nothing being accomplished.

I can't help but notice that you have yet to provide any evidence to support your notion that the war was for oil. Could that be because there isn't any?

Maybe you missed it but 14 Americans died today in Afghanistan, not indicative of being forgotten is it?

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See most nations consider the future impact of its peoples needs and that of other nations.
I like the fact that my government considers the needs of my nation first.


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No one is lecturing anyone about the environment...do you have a guilty conscience or something.

"The rest of the world suffers so you can drive a Hummer. "
I think that qualifies as a lecture. Kind of hypocritical too considering what you drive.
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      10-26-2009, 02:58 PM   #51
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Pakistan and north Korea? Are you suggesting we invade Pakistan? The last I checked the Pakistani government was fighting al Qaeda under very difficult political circumstances. Does Pakistan also have a history of using chemical weapons? Have they ignored a dozen or so UN resolutions ordering them to disarm?

I'm all for blasting north Korea's nuclear and missile capability. Unfortunately the war crazed Bush chose to follow the advice you seem to believe he should have followed re: Iraq. Multilateral negotiations and pressure from the "international community" have led to nothing being accomplished.

I can't help but notice that you have yet to provide any evidence to support your notion that the war was for oil. Could that be because there isn't any?
Any you haven't provided any proof that it wasn't for oil.

Hers is some light reading http://www.thedebate.org/thedebate/iraq.asp
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Maybe you missed it but 14 Americans died today in Afghanistan, not indicative of being forgotten is it?
Their are not enough American troops deployed to Afganastan to win the war. This is pretty well known. I believe Obama committed more manpower to the region.

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I like the fact that my government considers the needs of my nation first.

Again the problem is that their is no consideration of future generations domestic or not. We ALL have to stop living in the now.


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"The rest of the world suffers so you can drive a Hummer. "
I think that qualifies as a lecture. Kind of hypocritical too considering what you drive.

To quote myself....
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No one is slamming Hummers, just used it as an example..replace hummer with Toyota if it makes you feel better. the cost per gallon at the pump is the same.
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      10-26-2009, 03:10 PM   #52
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Any you haven't provided any proof that it wasn't for oil.

Hers is some light reading http://www.thedebate.org/thedebate/iraq.asp
If you are really going to point to a website complete with conspiracies of the New World Order, Jews harvesting Palestinian organs, and all the other black helicopter nonsense I simply cannot take you seriously.
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      10-26-2009, 08:14 PM   #53
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If you are really going to point to a website complete with conspiracies of the New World Order, Jews harvesting Palestinian organs, and all the other black helicopter nonsense I simply cannot take you seriously.
Are you honestly that naive? Do really believe the Iraq was was about anything other then oil? Bush admitted it.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...110401025.html

Tell us then great wise one? What is the reason for the war?

Face it, the Bush administration misled americans period...end of story.
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      10-26-2009, 08:30 PM   #54
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Are you honestly that naive? Do really believe the Iraq was was about anything other then oil? Bush admitted it.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...110401025.html

Tell us then great wise one? What is the reason for the war?

Face it, the Bush administration misled americans period...end of story.
You point us to a website chock full of 'New World Order', Bilderberg', 'Masonic secrets', and other assorted consiracy nonsense for PROOF of your claim that the war in Iraq was for oil (BTW they also claim Afghanistan was about oil) but you think I am naive?? Seriously?

I have already said what I think the war was about. No one lied.

Can you honestly not see the difference between, "we went to war for oil" and "if we leave Iraq too soon the radical Islamists we are fighting may gain control of Iraq's oil"?
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      10-26-2009, 08:43 PM   #55
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You point us to a website chock full of 'New World Order', Bilderberg', 'Masonic secrets', and other assorted consiracy nonsense for PROOF of your claim that the war in Iraq was for oil (BTW they also claim Afghanistan was about oil) but you think I am naive?? Seriously?

I have already said what I think the war was about. No one lied.

Can you honestly not see the difference between, "we went to war for oil" and "if we leave Iraq too soon the radical Islamists we are fighting may gain control of Iraq's oil"?
Regardless of what other stories are on the website the footnotes point to credible sources.

Believe what you like friend.

- Their were no WMDs
- Iraq did not sponsor past terrorist attacks against America.
- Iraq was not operating in concert with al-Qaida.

Do you seriously believe Cheney and Bush? Wow. You are definitely in the minority.
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      10-26-2009, 08:58 PM   #56
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Regardless of what other stories are on the website the footnotes point to credible sources.

Believe what you like friend.

- Their were no WMDs
- Iraq did not sponsor past terrorist attacks against America.
- Iraq was not operating in concert with al-Qaida.

Do you seriously believe Cheney and Bush? Wow. You are definitely in the minority.
Most conspiracy kooks point to little snippets of truth as evidence of the overall accuracy of their lunacy. Why don't you try to provide some evidence that is at least a little bit credible?

- Iraq did have WMD, they used it & admitted having it. That they refused to destroy it under supervision as they were obligated to do, convinced every major intelligence agency that they retained some.

- Iraq did have a history of attempting terror attacks against American targets. They tried to assassinate George HW Bush in Kuwait.

- Iraq did have ties ti al Qaeda affiliated groups.

Not just Bush & Cheney but Clinton, Gore, & other assorted Dems who made exactly the same claims against Iraq.
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      10-26-2009, 10:48 PM   #57
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It's easy to be an armchair quarterback.

How people think that our elected officials make these decisions based solely on their own knowledge is beyond me. Until you know what the people in charge of our military know via coordinated efforts from all major intel groups don't tell us you know what went down.

The FACT is that we don't have all the information needed to give an intelligent opinion.
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      10-26-2009, 11:33 PM   #58
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In the end, it doesn't make a shit bit of difference WHY we are there, simply because we ARE THERE now. It just doesn't matter if the war was to stop Saddam's regime, destroy WMDs, provide cheap gas to Americans or fulfill some revenge vendetta for Bush Sr.

It just doesn't MATTER at this point in time! What matters is how we clean up the sandbox and leave it behind. Of course, the debate now is how much cleaning there is, how long it will take, who will do it and who will pay for it and the usual "why?".

I don't think we should say "Sorry, we fucked up and created a hell of mess here. Good luck cleaning it up, see you later!" Didn't work out so well for Afghanistan in the late '80's. It came back to bite us in the ass, and now we have to deal with it again......
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      10-27-2009, 07:18 AM   #59
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In the end, it doesn't make a shit bit of difference WHY we are there, simply because we ARE THERE now. It just doesn't matter if the war was to stop Saddam's regime, destroy WMDs, provide cheap gas to Americans or fulfill some revenge vendetta for Bush Sr.

It just doesn't MATTER at this point in time! What matters is how we clean up the sandbox and leave it behind. Of course, the debate now is how much cleaning there is, how long it will take, who will do it and who will pay for it and the usual "why?".

I don't think we should say "Sorry, we fucked up and created a hell of mess here. Good luck cleaning it up, see you later!" Didn't work out so well for Afghanistan in the late '80's. It came back to bite us in the ass, and now we have to deal with it again......
I have to disagree. While I agree that the path forward is the priority it is also important to prevent a false narrative from becoming 'the' narrative. We did not invade Iraq to steal their oil. It is simply demonstrably not true and everytime someone claims we did and is not called on it, the probability that this will become the conventional wisdom increases.
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      10-27-2009, 08:03 AM   #60
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I have to disagree. While I agree that the path forward is the priority it is also important to prevent a false narrative from becoming 'the' narrative. We did not invade Iraq to steal their oil. It is simply demonstrably not true and everytime someone claims we did and is not called on it, the probability that this will become the conventional wisdom increases.
In the end we agree to disagree as to the reasons why the war was started.

It is quite obvious to most that the Bush administrations original reasons were unjustified in the end and who has profited from the war will give you a more clear indication of the motif.

I am glad that you see it as an 'invasion' however.
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      10-27-2009, 08:52 AM   #61
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Wow! I thought this thread was going to talk about health care and how this administration wants to fix a leak in the roof by bulldozing the building down and rebuilding it for 1000000000x as much as it would cost to just fix the existing problems.
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      10-27-2009, 12:12 PM   #62
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In the end we agree to disagree as to the reasons why the war was started.

It is quite obvious to most that the Bush administrations original reasons were unjustified in the end and who has profited from the war will give you a more clear indication of the motif.

I am glad that you see it as an 'invasion' however.
OK, we can agree that I will continue to believe what is demonstrably true while you can continue to believe your conspiracy nonsense.

Only one of the many reasons given for the war has been proven to have been incorrect. The others were and remain accurate.

Usually when the armed forces of one country cross the border of another it is an invasion. We invaded France on D-Day too.
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      10-27-2009, 01:51 PM   #63
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OK, we can agree that I will continue to believe what is demonstrably true while you can continue to believe your conspiracy nonsense.

Only one of the many reasons given for the war has been proven to have been incorrect. The others were and remain accurate.

Usually when the armed forces of one country cross the border of another it is an invasion. We invaded France on D-Day too.

I am still waiting for this demonstration of the truth you speak of. the number one reason was WMDs....Did they find any?

Also we all know that Sadams regime had nothing to do with 9/11.

As for WW2. The way you say it sounds a little off. The Nazis "invaded" France. The Alied troops landed along the French coastline to defeat the Nazis and push them back across Europe.

PS. It only took the US two years to get involved with the rest of us fighting Hitler.
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      10-27-2009, 02:26 PM   #64
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I am still waiting for this demonstration of the truth you speak of. the number one reason was WMDs....Did they find any?
Yes they did find them. I guess living in your liberal shell listening to leftist propaganda stations you would of not heard the reports. They were to busy telling you Bush lied and he invaded Iraq for the oil.

http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/...20/85636.shtml
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3009082.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3872201.stm
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/22/wo...s-uranium.html
http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/...7/170427.shtml
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      10-27-2009, 03:58 PM   #65
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Yes they did find them. I guess living in your liberal shell listening to leftist propaganda stations you would of not heard the reports. They were to busy telling you Bush lied and he invaded Iraq for the oil.

http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/...20/85636.shtml
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3009082.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3872201.stm
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/22/wo...s-uranium.html
http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/...7/170427.shtml

Are you kidding with newsmax.com? Speaking of propaganda.


"The repository, at Tuwaitha, a centerpiece of Saddam Hussein's nuclear weapons program until it was largely shut down after the first Persian Gulf war in 1991, holds more than 500 tons of uranium, none of it enriched enough to be used directly in a nuclear weapon"
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      10-27-2009, 04:51 PM   #66
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I am still waiting for this demonstration of the truth you speak of. the number one reason was WMDs....Did they find any?

Also we all know that Sadams regime had nothing to do with 9/11.

As for WW2. The way you say it sounds a little off. The Nazis "invaded" France. The Alied troops landed along the French coastline to defeat the Nazis and push them back across Europe.

PS. It only took the US two years to get involved with the rest of us fighting Hitler.
The truth:

1. It is demonstrably untrue that the US invaded Iraq for oil. The proof is that we have in fact, taken no oil.

2. Iraq was in violation of the cease fire agreement that ended the first Gulf War.

3. Iraq continued to support international terrorists.

4. Iraq had long standing ties with al Qaeda affiliated organizations.

5. Iraq had a history of developing and using chemical weapons, developing biological weapons, and attempting to develop nuclear weapons.

That all by itself, even with none of the suspected stores of chemical and biological weapons that every major intelligence agency in the world believed Iraq maintained, was sufficient justification for the invasion. Heck, just the first one is enough.

Encyclopedia Britannica calls D-Day the invasion of Normandy, that is good enough for me.
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