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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > BMW E90/E92/E93 3-series General Forums > Regional Forums > UK > UK Technical Forum > 335i Turbos - Stage 2 now installed and reviewed!!



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      02-12-2010, 10:52 AM   #221
dxb335d
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what is standard size?
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      02-12-2010, 11:07 AM   #222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dxb335d View Post
what is standard size?
6mm

I suspect alot of drivers dont push their cars hard enough to get the problems, so alot of the older cars may not have the newer 8mm ones retro fitted

I only got the problems when driving hard for 2 hours +

Mate from your posts Ive read, I'm betting you would fookin love the 335i, + plenty of modding for you to do
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      02-12-2010, 11:48 AM   #223
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Oh yes, its either than or an M3 for my next car.
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      02-12-2010, 12:09 PM   #224
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Quote:
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Oh yes, its either than or an M3 for my next car.
i wouldn't bother Carlos neither can keep up with the mighty DXB!
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      02-12-2010, 12:14 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by E902717 View Post
i wouldn't bother Carlos neither can keep up with the mighty DXB!
Oh a 450HP 335i will

M3 will be quicker once I hit 130+
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      02-12-2010, 12:37 PM   #226
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Oh yes, its either than or an M3 for my next car.
want to swap?
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      02-12-2010, 12:45 PM   #227
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Quote:
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Oh a 450HP 335i will

M3 will be quicker once I hit 130+
How can that be? The DXB actually reverses time, so it will win before the 335i/M3 has even moved! It will win the race without actually starting it
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      02-12-2010, 01:47 PM   #228
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E92 fan - great thread, good work so far and good luck to your end product.
Question : your car seems to be running well - even before your re map - why did u and TD decide to replace the turbine wheel also ?

Rob: good to see you in this thread !!!

Best to all
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      02-12-2010, 03:54 PM   #229
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Can't wait for more info!

I have a set of stock turbos on their way ready for upgrades

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Scheduled Delivery Date: 02/16/2010
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Last edited by jpsimon; 02-13-2010 at 01:41 AM.
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      02-12-2010, 10:06 PM   #230
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more info please!!!!!!!!!

soon as that happens i'm sending in a stock set!!
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      02-13-2010, 04:24 AM   #231
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dxb335d View Post
If someone was in the market for a used 335i. What mileage car would be ''OK'' as it weree.

I know thats a vague question.

Would you steer clear of High mileage cars Tony or not?
There may be differing views on here, but I would think carefully about buying the earliest 335i's if they hadn't seen a lot of use. In that situation some of the initial warranties issues may still need to be addressed.

I'd rather get a slightly newer one with higher mileage, where things like the actuator rods had been sorted.
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      02-13-2010, 04:45 AM   #232
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Quote:
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I'd rather get a slightly newer one with higher mileage, where things like the actuator rods had been sorted.
Slightly newer - weren't the actuators changed to 8mm from Sept 09, so they have to be less than 6 months old to avoid this problem.

A retrofit under warranty will be common place before long.
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      02-13-2010, 06:07 PM   #233
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      02-13-2010, 06:31 PM   #234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahoo View Post
Slightly newer - weren't the actuators changed to 8mm from Sept 09, so they have to be less than 6 months old to avoid this problem.

A retrofit under warranty will be common place before long.
What I mean is that I would rather find a car that had been used well, that was not one of the first production run. Ideally one where this warranty retro fit had already been done.
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      02-14-2010, 04:28 AM   #235
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      02-15-2010, 08:18 PM   #236
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Hopefully E92Fan can give us more details soon including price..
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      02-21-2010, 06:35 PM   #237
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E92Fan,

Did you ever find the part #s for these new 8mm rod actuators?

Thanks,
Rob

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Originally Posted by E92Fan View Post
Three months? That's about the time the changes were happening as retrofit kits - late October / early November. I wonder if you have the previous version... I'll get the part numbers on Monday for the latest actuators and you can compare that to what you ordered...
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      02-24-2010, 03:02 PM   #238
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+1, could you let us know the part #?
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      02-26-2010, 06:04 PM   #239
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Winter is almost over Tony... time to pump up the turbo's
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      03-21-2010, 09:06 PM   #240
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Spring is finally here, and I'm finally back in the UK too so time to give everyone an update - sorry for the delay!!!



The Stage 1 turbos were finished many months ago, and had accumulated over 4000 miles of testing. The testing went without a hitch from the turbos - the only issues I had were not turbo related, but more to do with a poor design of oil return pipe by BMW More on that later...

The net result of the Stage 1 upgrade, which was compressor wheel + reprofiled exhaust turbine, was an approximate 65hp increase at the flywheel over stock. Torque figures went up by about 50lbft. This was over and above the performance I was already getting from the various engine mods that have been done to my car

The real-world improvement was signifcant - mid-range pull was stronger, making 4th gear feel like 3rd, and there was a noticeable improvement in top-end power with much less tapering off as the revs climbed towards red-line. The car felt as strong at 5000rpm as it did at 3500rpm, whereas a normally-configured engine would start tapering off at 5000rpm, becoming a bit breathless in comparison at 6000rpm.

Low speed pickup was not really hindered - there seemed to be no appreciable increase in turbo lag. Spool up times seemed very quick - from 1300rpm there was considerable shove, and by 1800rpm the car was pulling very hard. I could wheelspin easily in 3rd gear just by being aggressive with the throttle

Fuel economy whilst cruising is totally unaffected, although the consumption increased noticeably when pushing on as the fuel rate is increased to match the rise in air flow. I averaged 28mpg (UK) over the 4000 miles, which is pretty damn good considering I spent two days at Brands Hatch doing my best to break the turbos!!



Roll forward to the end of February, and I sent the car away again to be taken apart so that the various components could be inspected. The turbos came off and were sent back for examination, and for the next stage of the upgrades to take place. It was during this dismantling process of the engine that we noticed the OEM oil return lines have a serious flaw in their design. These lines serve to return the oil from the turbo to the sump. However the line itself, which is made up of an initial fixed metal pipe joining onto a braided line, has an almost 130 degree kink in it's layout. This curve only serves to impede the oil return flow, and therefore gives an increased likelihood to oil pooling in the turbo itself (which I suffered from in the form of a little white smoke coming from the exhausts).

We have therefore decided, in conjunction with the Stage 2 turbo upgrade, to remanufacture the oil lines with extended versions, which will serve to alleviate the existing kink, and will also allow an easier installation of the Stage 2 upgrade on the turbos...



So, to the Stage 2 upgrade...

Originally, the turbo upgrades were going to be done in one go - compressor wheel and exhaust turbine together. However TD wanted to spend more time looking at the exhaust turbine side of things, so we decided to pursue with the Stage 1 upgrades first (all documented previously in this thread) and tackle the Stage 2 job later on.

For those who have yet to catch on, the Stage 1 upgrade is an enlarged compressor wheel with a reprofiled exhaust turbine wheel. Stage 2 further enlarges the compressor wheel over and above Stage 1, and also has an enlarged exhaust turbine wheel.

The Stage 2 process is hugely involved, and presents a serious engineering challenge. Of primary concern was the desire to keep both oil and water cooling for the upgraded exhaust turbine assembly. Using a Garrett core (as others have done) was deemed an unacceptable solution, especially given the heat-induced wear these turbos potentially suffer from. The other main issue was one of physical dimensions - how to fit an enlarged turbine in a small housing, and maintain good airflow.

These were the challenges facing the design team, but after a lot of consideration to wall strength and potential flow constrictions etc, the TD engineers came up with a very intelligent solution. Not only does the upgraded turbine use both water and oil cooling (with the new oil lines manufactured for this application), the compressor wheel is being enlarged again (over and above Stage 1) to maintain the correct flow characteristics.

The Stage 2 turbos are 95% completed now, and I should have them back on Tuesday or Wednesday this coming week. Before the process to Stage 2 began, the turbos were inspected and declared to be in excellent health, with barely any wear or carbonisation after the 4000 miles of Stage 1 testing. This is excellent news, and points to the long-term reliability of these upgraded units. The wastegates and actuator bearing also showed no signs of deterioration

Plans are afoot to pursue a different course in mapping solution for the new engine requirements... more news on that next week!

Pictures below will show the state of the Stage 1 turbos coming off the car, before the processing into Stage 2 variants.


Old turbine housing (Stage 1, 4000 miles)
Name:  Old turbine housing 2.JPG
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Old turbine housing & manifold, before cleaning (Stage 1, 4000 miles)
Name:  Old turbine housing and manifold (before cleaning).JPG
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Bearing housing & ringlang, before cleaning (Stage 1, 4000 miles)
Name:  Bearing housings and ringlang before being cleaned..JPG
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Bearing housing with thrust bearing - very little sign of wear (Stage 1, 4000 miles)
Name:  bearing housing with thrust bearing (not too much wear in there!).JPG
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Compressor cover prior to Stage 2 conversion
Name:  Compressor cover before modification to stage 2 spec - small.jpg
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Old core assembly (Stage 1, 4000 miles)
Name:  Old Core Assembly.JPG
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Old core assembly next to new shaft and compressor wheel
Name:  Old core assembly next to new shaft and compressor wheel.JPG
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Old core assembly next to new shaft
Name:  Old core assembly next to new shaft.JPG
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      03-21-2010, 09:25 PM   #241
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nice!
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      03-21-2010, 09:25 PM   #242
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobBeck View Post
E92Fan,

Did you ever find the part #s for these new 8mm rod actuators?

Thanks,
Rob

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you.

I've been told by both people in the UK and also by my contacts in BMW Germany that BMW are not making the 8mm actuators and bearings available commercially as a retrofit upgrade to the original spec TD03 turbos. They have deemed that the replacement (modified) 6mm actuators they originally released are perfectly ok in terms of long-term reliability of those early turbos. Later spec turbos are coming with the 8mm assembly as a precautionary measure.

BMW discovered that the original 6mm actuators did not have enough stroke reserve, and the consequential wear in the wastegate bearing prevented the wastegate flaps from closing correctly. This caused the rattling, and in some extreme cases situations of underboost and resultant limp codes. The revised 6mm actuators that BMW are supplying have an increased stroke which alleviates the premature bearing wear. Newer turbos have an 8mm design for the actuator to further protect against any degradation.

The 8mm actuator assembly can be obtained, but only via BMW Germany and only if you are very persuasive with their technical team The part numbers for these assemblies are not publicly available.


Part numbers for the revised 6mm assemblies -

11 65 7 585 745 - Actuator cylinders 1-3 (LHD & RHD)

11 65 7 585 746 - Actuator cylinders 4-6 (LHD only)

11 65 7 585 747 - Actuator cylinders 4-6 (RHD only)
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