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      04-08-2010, 10:58 AM   #309
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Feck me i'm famous at last!!!!

PS - Tony - I will get my agent to contact you about my photo appearance fee.
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      04-08-2010, 11:27 AM   #310
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Tony,

Don't want to jack your thread , but why do your turbo's look different from the ones i have and all the others we see on this forum? The mounting of the wastegate and the compressor housing is different on yours compared to mine.
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      04-09-2010, 10:06 AM   #311
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Originally Posted by Funkmob View Post
Tony,

Don't want to jack your thread , but why do your turbo's look different from the ones i have and all the others we see on this forum? The mounting of the wastegate and the compressor housing is different on yours compared to mine.
I think it has to do with the steering wheel is mounted in the wrong side-the right side is not the right side
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      04-09-2010, 02:00 PM   #312
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I think it has to do with the steering wheel is mounted in the wrong side-the right side is not the right side
Thanks man
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      04-11-2010, 02:58 AM   #313
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Funkmob View Post
Tony,

Don't want to jack your thread , but why do your turbo's look different from the ones i have and all the others we see on this forum? The mounting of the wastegate and the compressor housing is different on yours compared to mine.
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Originally Posted by Aridk View Post
I think it has to do with the steering wheel is mounted in the wrong side-the right side is not the right side
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Originally Posted by Funkmob View Post
Thanks man

Can you post up a picture of the turbos you have seen, so that we can compare accurately?

If you are comparing the configuration of my Stage 2 turbos to your regular ones, then yes there is a slight difference, because the exhaust turbine and associated components have been either changed or modified. The orientation of the oil and water lines have also changed. However there should not be as noticeable a difference as you have suggested.

Also, these turbos are the original specification turbos from 2006. There have been running updates to the OEM turbos over the years, but these are component changes rather than design.
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      04-13-2010, 07:33 AM   #314
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E92Fan: did you experience increased lag on your Stage 2?
how did it go on the ring?
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      04-13-2010, 09:50 AM   #315
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BIG UPDATE!


As some of you will know, my car has now been running successfully with the Stage 2 turbo upgrade and has covered 2000 miles since installation

I'll talk about the results first, as that's what everyone wants to read mainly! The installation procedure will follow in the next post...

The car has been on a long run over to Germany, completed 300 hard and fast miles of the Nurburgring, sat at 160mph on the autobahn for dozens of miles, sat in bumper-to-bumper traffic, and I have to say so far it has been an utter dream. It is quick, seriously seriously quick. I chased a superbike on the autobahn (with RagingKileak watching on from inside the M3 behind me) and when the biker gunned it at 110mph, I changed down to 4th, pinned the throttle, and stayed the exact same distance away from him all the way to beyond 180mph. The car was still pulling hard but traffic stopped any further progress. Fuel consumption isn't so good at those speeds - I registered 8.6mpg (UK) at 180mph!!

It is very docile when driving around town - part throttle response is excellent, with very little apparent lag. The response for the first 2000 revs is sharp yet normal and linear, although you get the sense of something muscular building from within the engine. Over 2000 revs, the mid-range is astonishingly strong and goes utterly mental at 4000 revs. Power runs all the way to redline, and the next gear change just places the revs right in the meatiest part of the torque band. I wheelspin in 4th gear easily and if you don't have a LSD installed, you have absolutely no chance of making decent progress. There is so much power that it would completely overwhelm the DSC system.

The car on the Nurburgring was a revelation. The rate at which my car overtakes a race-prepped Porsche 997 GT3 RS going uphill after Breidscheid (second entrance on the 'Ring) is astonishing. This part of the circuit is notoriously power-sapping and demands as much torque as possible from an engine. The owner of a Porsche 996 GT2 who had a passenger lap with me said that my car doesn't feel as explosive as a GT2 in a straight line as it is actually more linear in its power delivery, but judging by the speedo my car was significantly faster than his GT2. The linear power delivery is very much a key to how well the car drives with the new turbos - it's supremely easy to judge where the power comes in and consequently apply the power to the tarmac without lurid tail slides.

A few forum members have had the chance to experience the upgraded car over the Easter and I'm sure they'll be along to comment shortly.

With the latest round of supporting mods, including a secondary oil cooler from AR Design and a high-spec Setrab core replacing the main oil cooler behind the bumper, the engine reached a maximum oil temperature of 125 degrees celsius after hot-lapping around the 'Ring. This was a spectacular result and in no small part down to the efficiency and placement of AR Design's oil cooler. There were ZERO limp modes, no strange fuel surges, no dodgy starts. 100% reliable. At a constant 160mph the oil temperature stayed at 120 degrees. At normal autobahn speeds (100mph) the oil temperature stays at 110 degrees

I have decided to move away from a flash-based tune for the moment and asked Shiv @ Procede to send me his latest V4 device. Thanks to Shiv and his guys for managing to ship me a new unit from the States to the UK in two days flat The reason why I've gone to Procede is mainly due to the customer-base in the States - there are so many people interested in the turbos from over there, a lot of which are using Procede, that I wanted to see how the car would run in its new configuration with the external tuning box.

Shiv created a basic map at 15psi for me to run with, and it is this map that I've done all the testing on. It's ONLY 15psi!! I had planned to run 17psi as my normal tune, but judging by how fast the car is at the moment, I can't begin to think how quick it will be at 17psi



The bottom line is this -
  • The Stage 2 turbos are EPIC and a considerable improvement over the Stage 1 modifications
  • There is immensely strong power all throughout the rev range right up to the red line
  • Properly tuned, the car feels every bit as normal to drive as a regular car, just with a HUGE amount more power in reserve
  • It's been 100% reliable so far
  • They are expensive, but you get what you pay for
  • Do not underestimate the benefit of retaining all cooling lines - upgrading turbos without using the water lines is an utter disaster waiting to happen


However, there are some things that anyone considering Stage 2 turbos need to be aware of, and you should read my next post on the installation aspects
  • You need new oil and water lines
  • Installation is a BITCH
  • You NEED NEED NEED supporting mods - oil cooler, intercooler
  • You must reduce the backpressure in the exhaust - downpipes, freeflow exhausts etc
  • You must use the highest quality oil possible that resists degradation at high temperatures - Silkolene ProS 5W-40 is the ideal oil
  • Most importantly, you need the most competent workshop team possible. You simply cannot install these using the local mechanic from down the road, because things will go wrong, I guarantee it!


The cost of the Stage 1 and Stage 2 turbos has now been determined, for customer-supplied units
  • Stage 1 - £750 + VAT per turbo (if original turbos are in good condition)
  • Stage 2 - £1,695 + VAT per turbo, not including oil and water lines (if original turbos are in good condition)
  • Bespoke remanufacturing of the wastegate (in addition to the above) - £175 + VAT per turbo
  • Oil and water lines for Stage 2 - approximately £350 + VAT for a full set

  • * Oil and water lines are not necessary for the Stage 1

The turbos and lines can be sourced from Birds Garages (www.birdsauto.com) or Turbo Dynamics (www.turbodynamics.co.uk). Birds will in due course have stock of Stage 2 turbos ready on an exchange basis - contact them for more information.

Installation in the UK is available at Birds - they are currently the only people who know exactly how to modify certain parts to ensure seamless fitment of the new turbos!

I cannot stress enough how important it is to have a garage/workshop that is competent. For those of you in Europe, it would be worth a trip to the UK to have the install done.
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      04-13-2010, 09:58 AM   #316
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Sounds immense. 335i FTW!
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      04-13-2010, 10:00 AM   #317
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Talking

INSTALLATION

To say it was a trauma getting to the stage of having the car running is a complete and utter understatement! I had pre-planned a long weekend at the Nurburgring over Easter, and the idea was to meet up with some friends in the UK and travel over to Germany mid-afternoon on the Thursday before Easter. There were many people waiting for me to be there over the weekend, so they could experience first hand the new turbos! However, the car was still up in the air on ramps by the time everyone was getting on the Eurotunnel, with only one turbo attached and the other one on the workbench...! It had taken the best part of seven working days to get the new turbos onto the car

The turbos arrived back with me at the beginning of the week and the long process of installing the units started. In hindsight, we should have taken the gearbox and engine out of the car completely as opposed to trying to install the units within the confines of the engine bay. It would have made the design and installation of the oil and water lines much easier

The new Stage 2 turbos come with a different core assembly, still retaining oil and water lines, but using different fittings to the original Mitsubishi TD03 turbos, and also with the fittings in a different orientation. We knew early on that we would have to fabricate new oil and water lines, butchering the original BMW fittings and reusing them together with new banjo fittings on the turbo side. The design of these lines was done with the turbos off the car, using the original BMW parts as templates for orientation.

The Stage 2 turbos also alter ever so slightly the overall dimensions of the turbos - the compressor housing sits a few millimetres further away from the exhaust manifold, thus creating a difference in the location of the compressor inlet pipes. This therefore requires some alteration of the OEM inlet pipes to match the location of the turbos. It's not a major modification, but is worth noting as it's an important item to get sorted.

With the turbos test fitted to the engine, we set about installing the various lines and it was here that we discovered a major problem and what would turn out to be our biggest headache. None of the lines that had been designed previously would fit properly, as the layout of the core and the positioning of the lines had changed so much. Not to mention the fact that the company responsible for fabricating the lines were the biggest shower of crap I've ever known. In fact, the lines were so far out that the guys at Birds (who as ever were handling the installation for me) had to start again from scratch. You can see from the image below the poor positioning of the first set of lines and the foul conditions that they were causing on the actuator rod.

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You can also see the poor layout of one of the original lines and the problem to oil flow it would have caused had it been left like this...

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Dennis, the Master Tech at Birds, decided that he would design his own oil and water lines, creating new routes and layouts so that they would maximise the flow rate of the oil and water. At the same time, he designed the lines so that they would use the OEM BMW heat shields that originally are installed around the OEM lines to prevent heat soak. He also took the decision to wrap the lines in a Nomex heatproof sock, to help keep everything cool. Just working out the layout of all the lines took two days, not to mention all the travel back and forth from the fabricators to the workshop. The setback in time was huge, and I don't even want to think at the cost involved in having these lines redesigned. I'm still in a rage about the incompetence of the original fabricators

Thankfully the new lines are a work of art and fit perfectly. The routing is exact, no foul conditions are caused, and maximum flow of oil and water has been retained

By the time everything was ready for reinstallation it was late Tuesday afternoon and the car hadn't even turned a wheel. After a day of frantic installation the car was fired up, only to produce a big oil leak on the workshop floor. Bugger!

Cue frantic disassembly of the engine to locate the source of the oil leak. We discovered that the two main oil supply lines from the engine block into the turbos had moved in their connection by literally 1mm. Doesn't sound a lot, but it was enough to allow the oil to squirt out. In any case, to remedy the situation both turbos had to come off the engine again. This problem highlighted the difficulty in installing the oil lines and takes me back to the thought in hindsight that we should have taken the engine out of the car completely to do the install.

In the end, Dennis stayed till 8pm on Thursday evening to finish the car and get it rolling. It hadn't even been on a road test - we made sure that no oil was leaking, and then I took it and drove straight to the Eurotunnel to get on a train over to France, before driving onwards to Germany!! Talk about road testing the complete unknown - we had no idea at all whether it would work, whether the new components would stay together. Dennis and I knew that the car was reassembled perfectly, that mechanically there should be no problems, but you just never know!

In any event, the car covered 2000 miles over five days - 300 miles of hard and fast driving on the 'Ring, and some tortuous endurance tests on the autobahn on the way home. The car is currently up on ramps again to make sure everything is in order - initial reports are that everything is perfect



On a personal note,

Dennis @ Birds: Thanks very much for all your time and effort. It was a major rush, the complications didn't help, but your skills and thought in the design of new products to overcome the problems ensured the car made it to Germany on time (almost!) The blood spilled has been well worth it...

Kevin @ Birds: Thanks for donating half the workshop and ramps to the cause!! A few 'squeaky bum' moments always help the day to pass quickly!

Martin @ Turbo Dynamics: We got there in the end! Thanks for getting this project started, and for sticking it through to the end! Hopefully you won't ever have me phoning you up again swearing blindly in rage about sodding oil lines and vices!! The turbos are great - long process but the effort has been well worth it and I'm happy that the testing phase has gone so successfully. Let's see what the magazines make of it all!


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      04-13-2010, 10:02 AM   #318
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Very very promising!!! thanks for the update , my stage 2 are now ordered !
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      04-13-2010, 10:13 AM   #319
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thats alot of drool.
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      04-13-2010, 10:20 AM   #320
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Quote:
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Very very promising!!! thanks for the update , my stage 2 are now ordered !
Don't forget about the oil and water lines!
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      04-13-2010, 11:05 AM   #321
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Originally Posted by E92Fan View Post
Can you post up a picture of the turbos you have seen, so that we can compare accurately?

If you are comparing the configuration of my Stage 2 turbos to your regular ones, then yes there is a slight difference, because the exhaust turbine and associated components have been either changed or modified. The orientation of the oil and water lines have also changed. However there should not be as noticeable a difference as you have suggested.

Also, these turbos are the original specification turbos from 2006. There have been running updates to the OEM turbos over the years, but these are component changes rather than design.

Tony,

Here are the pictures that show the difference. Its in the housing of the turbo's and the mounting points of the wastegate actuators on the rear turbo.

I thought mine were from some other model , but they seem similar with JPsimpson's and others . Just yours look different.

Here they are:

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      04-13-2010, 11:10 AM   #322
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Great news, all of this. And excellent work, from all parties - kudos to Tony for getting all of this research and development done, we'll all profit from this. An excellent new choice has been given to us N54 owners!

And yes, I can personally attest that this stage 2 equipped car is monstrously fast. Saying that when driving a 400+hp car myself is quite a statement, I would imagine. Flooring it in any gear and Tony just whisked away from anyone on his tail. Just a pity that the weather on the 'Ring was not ideal for such torque-monsters. Roll on 22/23 May!

And I'm already saving up for my stage 2 turbos that should be TurboDynamics at the moment, even though I haven't heard from Martin until today. I will certainly have them installed at Birds, just like my Quaife - always nice to have an excuse for a trip to London!

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      04-13-2010, 11:19 AM   #323
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that really sounds epic. I am happy for you that it all turned out well. Looking forward to the updates and hopefully I can once join a round around the ring!

Thumbs up for Birds and Turbo Dynamics as well.
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      04-13-2010, 11:20 AM   #324
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E92Fan View Post
Don't forget about the oil and water lines!
yes thanks, my shop will fix them and your pics and experience will help a lot for sure.
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      04-13-2010, 11:23 AM   #325
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Originally Posted by Alpina_B3_Lux View Post
Great news, all of this. And excellent work, from all parties - kudos to Tony for getting all of this research and development done, we'll all profit from this. An excellent new choice has been given to us N54 owners!

And yes, I can personally attest that this stage 2 equipped car is monstrously fast. Saying that when driving a 400+hp car myself is quite a statement, I would imagine. Flooring it in any gear and Tony just whisked away from anyone on his tail. Just a pity that the weather on the 'Ring was not ideal for such torque-monsters. Roll on 22/23 May!

And I'm already saving up for my stage 2 turbos that should be TurboDynamics at the moment, even though I haven't heard from Martin until today. I will certainly have them installed at Birds, just like my Quaife - always nice to have an excuse for a trip to London!

Alpina_B3_Lux
hahaha, you crazy B***** Cool you are going this road as well. I am really jealous Now I am looking forward even more to meet you up at the Ring
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      04-13-2010, 11:40 AM   #326
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Holy cow, I can attest Alpinas car is already seriously fast, so I can only imagine what Tony's beast must be like

Hopefully I can find out in May at the Ring!

Awesome work Tone!!
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      04-13-2010, 11:43 AM   #327
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Has it been round the Top Gear track yet?
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      04-13-2010, 11:44 AM   #328
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Has it been round the Top Gear track yet?
Not yet
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      04-13-2010, 11:45 AM   #329
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Sounds very impressive Tony and I hope you are enjoying the monster you have created!

When do you think you will have the stage 2 dyno stats?

Also, what would you estimate the total upgrade cost of a bone stock 335i, including all the suggested mods?

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      04-13-2010, 11:45 AM   #330
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Feck me i'm famous at last!!!!

PS - Tony - I will get my agent to contact you about my photo appearance fee.
Sorry William, I tried to get the labrador in the article but they wouldn't let me
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