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      11-28-2009, 10:02 PM   #23
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Scanboy listed the parts here:

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=251449

But read all the way through - the last two outer ports are inop.
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      12-30-2009, 10:31 PM   #24
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VP, any updates? How are those earthquakes working out? I am not liking mine, can't get it tuned to sound decent. I was looking at some other 8" midbass choices, all of which would need an additional spacer to make them fit. Any ideas? How about Morel MW265, I see you had them but didn't install.
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      12-30-2009, 10:54 PM   #25
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a suggestion on the SWS-8s
make sure after you mount them that they are tight
i had a leakage on one side and it sounded like crap
took me 4 days to find the leak
turned out to be a small leak on the bottom
i recomment using silicon to seal them
now that both of them are air tight, they sound good
giving them 120 watts each crossed at 120hz and they really kick
still need a proper sub thought
but just for below 40hz i think

i swear this is a market for someone who does the install
you just ship him your empty subwoofer enclosures
and he sends them back with the SWS-8 installed and air tight with a short wire that has connectors that fit into the OEM plug
took me ages to do all that
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      12-31-2009, 09:35 AM   #26
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I remember there being holes in the bottom of the enclosures, for drainage I suppose? Did you silicone those shut?

Honestly, the woofers were sounding pretty darn good before I put in the bitone processor, but now I can't get them to sound the same, particularly on the low end, so the difference surely lies in the processing. They are getting the same amount of power, 150W per side, difference being that now the signal is stereo whereas before it was mono.
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      12-31-2009, 12:47 PM   #27
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nice job...
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      12-31-2009, 04:34 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaigoss69 View Post
VP, any updates? How are those earthquakes working out? I am not liking mine, can't get it tuned to sound decent. I was looking at some other 8" midbass choices, all of which would need an additional spacer to make them fit. Any ideas? How about Morel MW265, I see you had them but didn't install.
The SWS8 are really shallow at the deepest point. To use the Rainbows I originally hoped to use, or the Morels, there is significant mod to the bottom of the enclosure AND spacing needed which then runs the risk of hitting the carpet. Their deepest point is deeper than the SWS8.

BTW, if SWS aren't sealing right, you didn't mod the bottom of the enclosure right.

My SWS-8 sound pretty loud for woofers, when I run them all the way down.

What I can't do is get a ton of mid-bass out of them, or to go up above 150 without voices sounding tubby. They are really a sub driver, not a midbass. These are 4 ohm drivers and I might try 2 ohm just to check if I can get more output from my amp so I can EQ a bit more. I am playing my 4" down to 150 and things are fine, but I don't lean on it hard like some people.

I get the feeling that the underseat enclosures are a bad location to try to get midbass out of - I can EQ the midbass all I want and I still have a gap.

Try experimenting with polarity - made a noticeable difference with mine if the SWS8 were in polarity with the rest of the system or not. Also, are you SURE you have the polarity right? If they sounded good before?

Now, FYI, my system is tuned for hi-fi and a pretty flat response. I think, based on my experience, that most people wouldn't notice or call out a mid-bass issue. I'm being pretty critical here...
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      01-01-2010, 12:13 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by VP Electricity View Post
The SWS8 are really shallow at the deepest point. To use the Rainbows I originally hoped to use, or the Morels, there is significant mod to the bottom of the enclosure AND spacing needed which then runs the risk of hitting the carpet. Their deepest point is deeper than the SWS8.

BTW, if SWS aren't sealing right, you didn't mod the bottom of the enclosure right.

My SWS-8 sound pretty loud for woofers, when I run them all the way down.

What I can't do is get a ton of mid-bass out of them, or to go up above 150 without voices sounding tubby. They are really a sub driver, not a midbass. These are 4 ohm drivers and I might try 2 ohm just to check if I can get more output from my amp so I can EQ a bit more. I am playing my 4" down to 150 and things are fine, but I don't lean on it hard like some people.

I get the feeling that the underseat enclosures are a bad location to try to get midbass out of - I can EQ the midbass all I want and I still have a gap.

Try experimenting with polarity - made a noticeable difference with mine if the SWS8 were in polarity with the rest of the system or not. Also, are you SURE you have the polarity right? If they sounded good before?

Now, FYI, my system is tuned for hi-fi and a pretty flat response. I think, based on my experience, that most people wouldn't notice or call out a mid-bass issue. I'm being pretty critical here...
I broke off the tabs in the bottom of the enclosure but still had to use spacers to raise the SWS about 1/4" so they would not bottom out. I siliconed the hell out of it so I am sure there are no leaks at the baffle - just those holes in the bottom. As far as polarity, I am pretty sure I've got it correct but I will double check. Did you end up reversing the polarity of one of the drivers and which one, or both? I must say everything above 200Hz sounds pretty decent now. I set my x-overs at 175Hz with the Focals handling everything above and the SWS everything below. My staging is very good now - voices are centered in the middle and a good bit off the dash, and instruments definitely come from all over the place now so I think I am on the right track (I first used an RTA to flatten out the response and then eq'd each frequency band separately, left and right to center the tones. Just wish I could move the stage a bit further towards the windshield somehow.

Anywhoo, I have some more work to do with the low end. In the worst case I can still add a sub I suppose, but then again I cherish my trunk space.

BTW, Happy New Year Everyone!
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      01-01-2010, 05:29 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaigoss69 View Post
I broke off the tabs in the bottom of the enclosure but still had to use spacers to raise the SWS about 1/4" so they would not bottom out. !
I ground hell out of mine for the Rainbows I did not use, so little was needed for the SWS-8.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaigoss69 View Post
Did you end up reversing the polarity of one of the drivers and which one, or both?
I swapped both using the PHASE button on my Zapco DC processors. Does the BitOne have a button like that? I can't remember.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaigoss69 View Post
I set my x-overs at 175Hz with the Focals handling everything above and the SWS everything below.
I run my whole system at 200, but today, I did some experimenting.

One of the justifications of doing this system was being able to use the Zapco preset buttons to demo various levels of audio system.

So today I set up a preset with the 650 running just F mids, F tweets, and SWS8s running all the way down.

Then I set up another with those drivers with EQ.

Then I set up another with rears (more on this later).

What I found was that the SWS8 have a ton of energy in the 40 Hz area (based on my RTA and mono pink noise) and then there is a big dip around 200 to 250

I found that it sounded lots better with the EQ at -3 to -5 dB at 40 Hz. The BitOne has a 40 Hz slider so I would try that at -5 to start. Cleaned it up a lot. Still lots of bass but cleaner.

I also got better midbass without the vocal sound problem by LP the SWS8 at 250 at 34dB/octave, and then HP the Morel 4 at 200 at 24dB/octave, and boosting the SWS8 at 200 Hz with about 3dB. Smoothed it out a lot, and the 250-200 handoff was still fine on the RTA (the driver's outputs in the stopbands are summing together to pretty close to flat).

So give those settings a try and let me know what you think!


I have the same problem that you have - my car sounds like I have turned the windshield into one big ribbon driver There is great imaging and decent stage width but no stage depth at all.

I finally got my rear speakers working in my L-R experiment. The early pre-digital surround methods used a signal playing ONLY the sounds that were not shared by the L and R channels. Think of a Venn diagram and exclude the intersection

So with a Zapco amp with balanced in, you can swap the L- and R+ in a modified cable and the front end inverts one channel and sums them together. You end up with two identical L-R channels of info.

I delayed the signal 18mS and bandpassed the speakers from 300at 24dB to 7000 at 24dB, and I ended up inserting two dips, at 400 and 2000. I also ended up playing mono pink noise thru them (at the suggestion of a member of EMSQ) and changing the channel output levels and individual delays so that I got the sound as close to centered as possible. (This was really hard with rear door mounted speakers. I think rear deck mounted speakers in a sedan would have been much better for this purpose.) I now have the two delays at 18 and 21 mS, and I dont' recally teh dB difference - 2 or 3 dB.

It deepens the stage a bit, not as much as I'd like, but it also makes the whole car sound like a small club. It actually deepens the reverb WITHOUT pulling the stage aft AT ALL.

I helped install, and designed the system, for the original in-car DSP surround
system CES demo car for Yamaha 20 years ago (Y ask Y? YDSP-1! : )

I have never liked surround in cars. But this is acceptable in that I don't notice the R speakers as a source of sound, but when I fade them out, I go from being in a live venue with good acoustics to listening to a really good set of nearfield studio monitors right in front of me.

Anyway, audison says that the bitone has balanced inputs, so if you decide to try it, you can swap the HU L- and R+ on the bitone inputs if you have HiFi. If you have Logic 7 and are using the OE amp outputs, I'm not sure if the speaker inputs invert and sum or not. If you ran the Bit One rear outputs to any balanced-differential RCA input amplifier, it would be pretty easy to mod a twisted-pair cable to do this in the amp front end. Arc Mini?

BTW, I used Morel Integra Ovation speakers in the back for my ambience channel, and now that I hear what L-R sounds like, I could have used factory speakers with no problem. Bandpassing them like this will prevent any issues with a decent small amp.
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      01-01-2010, 06:17 PM   #31
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lots of good info! after i figure out how to wire up my system with Symbilinks into the DSP6 instead of using the LOC you told me not to run, id like some ideas from you on x-over points (kick panel mounted 8's and the tweeters in the sails, not currently using the mids in the doors bc im waiting on the dsp8. im also running the12" sub. helpppp
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      01-01-2010, 06:29 PM   #32
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Quote:
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after i figure out how to wire up my system with Symbilinks into the DSP6 instead of using the LOC you told me not to run,
Do you have any good info on DSP-8 arrival? I have my doubts it's soon, but I have no hard info. You can chain together dual DSP-6

I can't remember - You have HiFi or Logic 7 in your car? If you have L7, I would use the SLDIN.BTL. If you have HiFi I would hack a Symbi cable.
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      01-01-2010, 06:44 PM   #33
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non L7 iDrive.
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      01-01-2010, 07:28 PM   #34
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As you posted that I saw your PM... as I replied in there, with a Zapco Symbilink-input device, you can hack the Symbi cable and go in directly.

I think that you can eliminate the Tru line driver too. The DSP6 has a ton of output voltage.
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      01-01-2010, 07:28 PM   #35
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nice job...
TY
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      01-02-2010, 03:26 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VP Electricity View Post
As you posted that I saw your PM... as I replied in there, with a Zapco Symbilink-input device, you can hack the Symbi cable and go in directly.

I think that you can eliminate the Tru line driver too. The DSP6 has a ton of output voltage.
This is what I ended up doing based on VP's recommendation. I put a molex connector on the front inputs to the hi-fi amp so I could easily disconnect them and then plug in the hacked symbilink connector when I'm ready to hook up the amp. I only did the prewiring so far so I haven't actually hooked up the amp (still trying to get new speaker wires into my front doors).



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      01-02-2010, 12:09 PM   #37
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is that wire with the butt connector going to vehicle ground?
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      01-02-2010, 12:48 PM   #38
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Quote:
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is that wire with the butt connector going to vehicle ground?
It is the cable shields within the symbilink connecter and it is setup so I can ground if needed. I will let it float for now but if I do get noise issues I will try grounding it.
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      01-02-2010, 08:08 PM   #39
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everyone can relax...the LOC has been removed and Symbilink has been inserted
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      01-02-2010, 08:14 PM   #40
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Quote:
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Yeah, I had these made a couple months ago and initially used them for the Vanadium 4" which I never played.
I have a set of these which I'll be using in my build. Is there any reason in particular you did not go with them?
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      01-02-2010, 08:36 PM   #41
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everyone can relax...the LOC has been removed and Symbilink has been inserted
Been relaxed all weekend... Friday was my birthday!
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      01-02-2010, 08:42 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 6spdcoupe View Post
everyone can relax...the LOC has been removed and Symbilink has been inserted
which LOC were you using ?
looking for an LOC for my HIFI system for a powered subwoofer
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      01-02-2010, 08:42 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VP Electricity View Post
Been relaxed all weekend... Friday was my birthday!
Happy Birthday!
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      01-02-2010, 10:54 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VP Electricity View Post
I ground hell out of mine for the Rainbows I did not use, so little was needed for the SWS-8.



I swapped both using the PHASE button on my Zapco DC processors. Does the BitOne have a button like that? I can't remember.



I run my whole system at 200, but today, I did some experimenting.

One of the justifications of doing this system was being able to use the Zapco preset buttons to demo various levels of audio system.

So today I set up a preset with the 650 running just F mids, F tweets, and SWS8s running all the way down.

Then I set up another with those drivers with EQ.

Then I set up another with rears (more on this later).

What I found was that the SWS8 have a ton of energy in the 40 Hz area (based on my RTA and mono pink noise) and then there is a big dip around 200 to 250

I found that it sounded lots better with the EQ at -3 to -5 dB at 40 Hz. The BitOne has a 40 Hz slider so I would try that at -5 to start. Cleaned it up a lot. Still lots of bass but cleaner.

I also got better midbass without the vocal sound problem by LP the SWS8 at 250 at 34dB/octave, and then HP the Morel 4 at 200 at 24dB/octave, and boosting the SWS8 at 200 Hz with about 3dB. Smoothed it out a lot, and the 250-200 handoff was still fine on the RTA (the driver's outputs in the stopbands are summing together to pretty close to flat).

So give those settings a try and let me know what you think!


I have the same problem that you have - my car sounds like I have turned the windshield into one big ribbon driver There is great imaging and decent stage width but no stage depth at all.

I finally got my rear speakers working in my L-R experiment. The early pre-digital surround methods used a signal playing ONLY the sounds that were not shared by the L and R channels. Think of a Venn diagram and exclude the intersection

So with a Zapco amp with balanced in, you can swap the L- and R+ in a modified cable and the front end inverts one channel and sums them together. You end up with two identical L-R channels of info.

I delayed the signal 18mS and bandpassed the speakers from 300at 24dB to 7000 at 24dB, and I ended up inserting two dips, at 400 and 2000. I also ended up playing mono pink noise thru them (at the suggestion of a member of EMSQ) and changing the channel output levels and individual delays so that I got the sound as close to centered as possible. (This was really hard with rear door mounted speakers. I think rear deck mounted speakers in a sedan would have been much better for this purpose.) I now have the two delays at 18 and 21 mS, and I dont' recally teh dB difference - 2 or 3 dB.

It deepens the stage a bit, not as much as I'd like, but it also makes the whole car sound like a small club. It actually deepens the reverb WITHOUT pulling the stage aft AT ALL.

I helped install, and designed the system, for the original in-car DSP surround
system CES demo car for Yamaha 20 years ago (Y ask Y? YDSP-1! : )

I have never liked surround in cars. But this is acceptable in that I don't notice the R speakers as a source of sound, but when I fade them out, I go from being in a live venue with good acoustics to listening to a really good set of nearfield studio monitors right in front of me.

Anyway, audison says that the bitone has balanced inputs, so if you decide to try it, you can swap the HU L- and R+ on the bitone inputs if you have HiFi. If you have Logic 7 and are using the OE amp outputs, I'm not sure if the speaker inputs invert and sum or not. If you ran the Bit One rear outputs to any balanced-differential RCA input amplifier, it would be pretty easy to mod a twisted-pair cable to do this in the amp front end. Arc Mini?

BTW, I used Morel Integra Ovation speakers in the back for my ambience channel, and now that I hear what L-R sounds like, I could have used factory speakers with no problem. Bandpassing them like this will prevent any issues with a decent small amp.
I'll give those eq settings a shot on the SWS. Also need to play with the polarity (bitone lets you switch it on the fly). Regarding the stage depth I am not sure that I will try to bring the rear speakers into play. I know that you can do this with processing alone since my VW Jetta had a 3-way front stage only and it was VERY deep using the Alpine Imprint. I think I am probably at the end of the rope with my abilities (and patience) for all this manual tuning; besides, I really don't know what to tune for - I just know it when I hear it .

I think I will go ahead and order an Alpine PXE-H650 and see how well it does. I have a feeling that the imprint auto tuning will do ten times as good a job in 5 minutes compared to what I could do in 5 months. (and supposedly imprint auto corrects polarities, too!).

I'm really being picky here (as you say you are as well) when I say that this is not the best it can be - as I know it can be better - but my current set-up is easily one of the best I have ever had with one of the easiest installs. Being able to keep the OEM HU and not having to run heavy gauge gauge power, speaker and RCA cables from front to back and being able to achieve these kinds of results is priceless!
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