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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Technical Forums > Wash, Wax, Detailing and Cosmetic protection/repairs > wax on top of sealer



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      12-08-2009, 02:59 AM   #1
bonwit904
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wax on top of sealer

whats the word on putting wax (carnuba) on top of a sealer like FMJ?

Will I be stripping the sealer with the wax, or even achieving a better shine with some of the paint protection properties of the Menzerna FMJ?
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      12-08-2009, 04:14 AM   #2
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Carnauba wax over a Polymer sealant

Some detailers find that a polymer sealant tends have a flat, silvered mirror look. Adding a Carnauba wax to the surface provides depth of shine, gloss, jetting (the so called ‘wet look’) and a warmth to the paint surfaces overall look. Bear in mind that how a paint surface ‘looks’ is very subjective and tends to invoke an emotional reaction rather than a logical one.

95% of an applied wax comprises out gassed solvent that is wiped away, whereas 65% of a polymer sealant that is applied remains.
Detailers who prepare show cars will often layer a Carnauba wax on top of a synthetic wax; the synthetic wax acts as a gloss layer, while the carnauba wax adds depth and a wet-looking (jetting) appearance


An extract from one of a series of unbiased “Detailing Technical Papers” © TOGWT ™ Ltd Copyright 2002-2009, all rights reserved
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      12-08-2009, 06:12 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bonwit904 View Post
Will I be stripping the sealer with the wax, or even achieving a better shine with some of the paint protection properties of the Menzerna FMJ?
You absolutely won't strip anything with a Carnauba wax, and you will add depth and gloss (and maybe a bit of protection too) by doing so.

FMJ is my choice of sealant too for the warmer months (I switch to Collinite for winter protection), and I always put a coat of wax on top as LSP. Take your pick on the type of wax, but make sure it's not a cleaning wax. Natty's Blue is a great bang-for-the-buck choice, products by Dodo Juice are just amazing if you're willing to spend the money. What color is your car? We can make a better recommendation based on that.
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      12-08-2009, 06:21 PM   #4
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My car is space grey - I already have Zymol carbon and creame in the house as well as one grand blitz wax.

In essence once the carnauba wax coating has worn off will the sealer coat beneath the wax continue to protect the paint?
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      12-08-2009, 07:15 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bonwit904 View Post
My car is space grey - I already have Zymol carbon and creame in the house as well as one grand blitz wax.

In essence once the carnauba wax coating has worn off will the sealer coat beneath the wax continue to protect the paint?
Yes.
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      12-08-2009, 10:03 PM   #6
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This might seem like a stupid question - and maybe I am not understanding everyones postings / detail writeups - but I do not see this method of using a sealant and a "real" wax as being very commonplace?

It seems like a no brainer to me that I should make this my new method..

If I had a car like a 599 GTB - which I recently had the chance to drive very extensively - I would probably just stick to the highest end swissvax and leave it alone...but in my case I think the sealer is critical.
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      12-08-2009, 10:46 PM   #7
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Using a modern sealant does no harm. It's a relatively quick extra step that simply offers more protection and even amped up shine. There's really no reason not to do both. In general, people are traditionally familiar with the "wash and wax" philosophy. But any detailing writeup here written by a professional will include both sealant (longer term protection of 3-6 months) and an LSP (last step protection, 3-6 weeks) which is usually a carnauba.

Honestly, the sealant is even more important in terms of protection than the wax - especially on a daily driver. Some opt to save a step and not top the sealant with a wax, that's perfectly fine too. Sealants these days do provide a great shine. But for the best look possible, doing both is the way to go.
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      12-09-2009, 03:29 AM   #8
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Quote:
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I do not see this method of using a sealant and a "real" wax as being very commonplace?

It seems like a no brainer to me that I should make this my new method..
Used to be very common practice a few years back. It makes sense to use a sealant under a wax.
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      12-09-2009, 04:30 AM   #9
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Although the products are distinctly different, most people just call it a wax

There are two main types of wax; Organic (Natural) and Non-Organic (Synthetic)

Organic Wax - Carnauba (Brasilia) Wax - is an organic (containing carbons) or natural product, a vegetable wax (fat) wax derived from the fronds of the carnauba palm, Copernicia prunifera, a plant native to and grown only in the north-eastern Brazilian states of Piauí, Ceará, and Rio Grande do Norte. It is known as "queen of waxes” and usually comes in the form of hard yellow-brown flakes. It is obtained from the fronds of the carnauba palm by collecting them, beating them to loosen the wax, then refining the wax.

Non-Organic Wax- these synthetic waxes are formulated with polymers, which are more durable than organic waxes. Synthetic waxes commonly mix low amounts of cleaners with high amounts of U.V. inhibitors to create the same protective layer that carnauba do. Synthetic wax creates a high gloss while carnauba waxes give a warm and wet looking finish e.g. Finish Kare FK1000P is a non-organic wax with a 250.oF melting point


An extract from “Automotive Detailing, Inside & Out”, a knowledge base for the perfectionist © TOGWT ™ Ltd Copyright 2002-2009, all rights reserved
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      12-09-2009, 07:20 AM   #10
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Part of the reason I don't too it as often as others is because you must wait for the carnauba to leave the paint before you can apply another sealant layer. There are times when I want to lay down another quick layer of sealant but don't because I'm not sure if all the wax is gone yet. Sealants don't bond well if at all to carnauba wax.
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      12-09-2009, 12:08 PM   #11
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I use do this all the time. Zaino Clear Seal then Pinnacle Souveran for the depth.
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      12-09-2009, 12:22 PM   #12
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Just don't use a "cleaner" wax. That might strip some of the sealant.
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      12-09-2009, 03:42 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pander5 View Post
Part of the reason I don't too it as often as others is because you must wait for the carnauba to leave the paint before you can apply another sealant layer. There are times when I want to lay down another quick layer of sealant but don't because I'm not sure if all the wax is gone yet. Sealants don't bond well if at all to carnauba wax.
Use a synthetic wax and you won't have any bonding problems. (Finish Kare, Collinite, etc)
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      12-09-2009, 09:34 PM   #14
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Quote:
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Part of the reason I don't too it as often as others is because you must wait for the carnauba to leave the paint before you can apply another sealant layer. There are times when I want to lay down another quick layer of sealant but don't because I'm not sure if all the wax is gone yet. Sealants don't bond well if at all to carnauba wax.
You top a sealant with a wax. Not the other way around.
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      12-10-2009, 07:19 AM   #15
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Exactly! Other than Zaino Clear Seal, I've never topped a wax with a sealant. However, TOGWT proposes some products that, because of formulation, work and bond to sealants underneath. It actually makes sense in that synthetics would most likely bond with synthetics.

I personally use Natty's Blue as a topper to my Zaino during our semi annual "love bug" seasons. I wait for that to give up the gost before adding more Zaino layers.
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      12-10-2009, 09:26 AM   #16
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The ONLY time I use a carnauba (Supernatural) is for the deeper shine/gloss it brings out.

The biggest drawbacks for using a carnauba (ANY carnauba) are the short protection lifespan, unable to layer the wax AND the fact vthat wax seems to be the biggest magnet for dust to the clear.

If I have a show then the carnauba is going to be applied. Just not aa daily basis kinda topper.
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      12-13-2009, 03:04 AM   #17
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when i put the wax (zymol creame) on top of the sealer (FMJ) it seems like the wax is adding resistance - it is much harder to take off then the FMJ. Is this "friction" I am feeling stripping my FMJ off?

Sorry to keep at the same issue here...
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      12-13-2009, 08:27 AM   #18
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I'm not familiar with Zymol Cream and don't know if it has any cleaning agents in it.

I have always experienced waxes to be a little bit more work to remove than sealants. Because of additives and carriers in a wax it seems they haze up and are a little more "grabby" when removing. Again, unless Z Cream has cleaners I don't think you're removing the FMJ but I'll defer to the experts here to respond.

Even with waxes, apply thin layers and they're easier to remove. A lot of folks need to see that thick whitish haze to make sure they've applied enough. Go thin for the win!

(edit: after some quick research it looks like Zymol Creame wax does not have any paint cleaners in it, just carnauba wax and some oils).
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