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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Technical Forums > Mechanical Maintenance: Break-in / Oil & Fluids / Servicing / Warranty > 50-60K Service: Brake Flush + Oil Change + Transmission Fluid Replacement



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      01-31-2010, 01:55 PM   #23
hun77777
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yea. i looked those pics and i agree those weren't that bad neither as compare to how mines were but on N54 application you do actually notice the difference too and we tend to get more misfire than N52 and i still think it is worth doing so every 30k at the least if you have tune. if you want to stick to scheduled maintenance program with tune and all other bolt on, trouble may be on its way waiting... but yeah i get what you are saying...
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      01-31-2010, 04:03 PM   #24
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So at what intervals are you planning on changing these fluids/plugs?
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      02-01-2010, 02:12 AM   #25
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i am doing spark plugs every 20k, 25k at latest and the rest of fluids will be done at 50k, then i'm shooting for another extensive fluids service at 100k, except oil change and brake fluids (every 2 years as recommended by the dealer).
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      02-01-2010, 05:07 PM   #26
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hun77777, wish I had that much technical expertise to do all these myself. Unfortunately, being in an apartment setting and all, my tools are limited, and my knowledge (past plug and play mods like my intake) is limited as well. Regardless, thanks for sharing your knowledge with the rest of us. I applaud you for meticulously maintaining your car
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      02-01-2010, 05:26 PM   #27
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Just found an interesting read on Pentosin ATF1:

"You are confusing a lot of the fluids and so are some of the posters. Let me clarify some info for you. I have done plenty of research on the tranny fluid issue so here goes.

(1)The BMW-packaged fluid as well as the VW-packaged fluid are both the exact same thing. The fluid inside is blended by a Mobil subsidiary and marketed as ESSO LT71141. Remember, when I say VW, I mean VW dealerships, not online places selling a "VW tranny fluid". The LT71141 fluid is a amber (almost the same as motor oil) colored fluid. The ESSO fluid is a semi-synthetic fluid derived from Group III basestocks with appropriate additives and friction modifiers. This exact fluid is also sold directly by ZF (around $13/litre) and by Audi/Porsche/Jaguar and Volvo dealerships.

(2) VW also publishes a spec for its tranny fluid and up until last year, ESSO was the only one marketing a fluid meeting that spec. Then Pentosin also started marketing its ATF1 product as meeting the relevant VW spec. This is NOT and NEVER WAS the OEM VW fluid. This fluid is also amber and is a semi-synthetic. Nothing else can be known for sure about this fluid. I would not waste my money on this fluid, which is generally available from online suppliers marketing VW parts.

(3) Then there are synthetic fluids like Redline, Mobil1 etc and IMHO, there isn't adequate field experience to support the application. Redline recommends their fluid but they aren't much trustworthy or technically competent. Mobil1 is a great product but Mobil doesn't recommend using the fluid in the application.

(4) Finally there are semi-synth fluids like Pennzoil/Quaker State Multi-vehicle ATF and the Valvoline MaxLife ATF, both of which claim that the product is correct for the application. However, Valvoline admits it hasn't done "exhaustive testing" in these transmissions and Pennzoil shows clearly inferior flash point data so I very much doubt its suitability for the application.

I would either use the VW-marketed ESSO fluid or would use one of the other fluids knowing that you do so at your own risk!!"

Anyone want to chime in?
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      02-01-2010, 05:50 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SE3P_to_E90 View Post
Just found an interesting read on Pentosin ATF1:

"You are confusing a lot of the fluids and so are some of the posters. Let me clarify some info for you. I have done plenty of research on the tranny fluid issue so here goes.

(1)The BMW-packaged fluid as well as the VW-packaged fluid are both the exact same thing. The fluid inside is blended by a Mobil subsidiary and marketed as ESSO LT71141. Remember, when I say VW, I mean VW dealerships, not online places selling a "VW tranny fluid". The LT71141 fluid is a amber (almost the same as motor oil) colored fluid. The ESSO fluid is a semi-synthetic fluid derived from Group III basestocks with appropriate additives and friction modifiers. This exact fluid is also sold directly by ZF (around $13/litre) and by Audi/Porsche/Jaguar and Volvo dealerships.

(2) VW also publishes a spec for its tranny fluid and up until last year, ESSO was the only one marketing a fluid meeting that spec. Then Pentosin also started marketing its ATF1 product as meeting the relevant VW spec. This is NOT and NEVER WAS the OEM VW fluid. This fluid is also amber and is a semi-synthetic. Nothing else can be known for sure about this fluid. I would not waste my money on this fluid, which is generally available from online suppliers marketing VW parts.

(3) Then there are synthetic fluids like Redline, Mobil1 etc and IMHO, there isn't adequate field experience to support the application. Redline recommends their fluid but they aren't much trustworthy or technically competent. Mobil1 is a great product but Mobil doesn't recommend using the fluid in the application.

(4) Finally there are semi-synth fluids like Pennzoil/Quaker State Multi-vehicle ATF and the Valvoline MaxLife ATF, both of which claim that the product is correct for the application. However, Valvoline admits it hasn't done "exhaustive testing" in these transmissions and Pennzoil shows clearly inferior flash point data so I very much doubt its suitability for the application.

I would either use the VW-marketed ESSO fluid or would use one of the other fluids knowing that you do so at your own risk!!"

Anyone want to chime in?
why is it so damn hard to just get BMW transmission oil without paying stealership price....




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Originally Posted by SE3P_to_E90 View Post
hun77777, wish I had that much technical expertise to do all these myself. Unfortunately, being in an apartment setting and all, my tools are limited, and my knowledge (past plug and play mods like my intake) is limited as well. Regardless, thanks for sharing your knowledge with the rest of us. I applaud you for meticulously maintaining your car
thanks for the complement but i'm not doing it myself neither. i'll perform most of those services at local independent bmw shops
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      02-01-2010, 06:45 PM   #29
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You can if you can find a distributor that will sell it to you before it gets to the dealer (ZF lifeguard fluid 6). I have called around a bit to see if I could find one, but struck out...or they could only sell it to me in mass quantities, much more than I would need.
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      02-02-2010, 11:33 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by SE3P_to_E90 View Post
Just found an interesting read on Pentosin ATF1:

"You are confusing a lot of the fluids and so are some of the posters. Let me clarify some info for you. I have done plenty of research on the tranny fluid issue so here goes.

(1)The BMW-packaged fluid as well as the VW-packaged fluid are both the exact same thing. The fluid inside is blended by a Mobil subsidiary and marketed as ESSO LT71141. Remember, when I say VW, I mean VW dealerships, not online places selling a "VW tranny fluid". The LT71141 fluid is a amber (almost the same as motor oil) colored fluid. The ESSO fluid is a semi-synthetic fluid derived from Group III basestocks with appropriate additives and friction modifiers. This exact fluid is also sold directly by ZF (around $13/litre) and by Audi/Porsche/Jaguar and Volvo dealerships.

(2) VW also publishes a spec for its tranny fluid and up until last year, ESSO was the only one marketing a fluid meeting that spec. Then Pentosin also started marketing its ATF1 product as meeting the relevant VW spec. This is NOT and NEVER WAS the OEM VW fluid. This fluid is also amber and is a semi-synthetic. Nothing else can be known for sure about this fluid. I would not waste my money on this fluid, which is generally available from online suppliers marketing VW parts.
LOADS OF JUNK/MISS INFORMATION IS THIS RANT!

1. The guys in the jaguar forums use pentonsin ATF1 in their 6HP ZF trans, but those puppies are pushing a TON more torque than anything VW makes. Those High torque X type R's and XJR's are pushing 150,000+miles with no failures. So lifeguard6 is really a mobil fluid! what a laugh that is. Mobile, that got sued for pushing mineral oil based group III fluids+ additives as synthetic?

2. Guy, unfortunately, I have the same ZF 6HP transmission in my other car: 2007 audi A6 quattro. Wanna see what that OEM cough syrup trans fluid looked like after only 40,000 miles?--> http://audiforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=141176 Please do some actual research before posting missinformation.

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      02-02-2010, 01:09 PM   #31
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LOADS OF JUNK/MISS INFORMATION IS THIS RANT!

1. The guys in the jaguar forums use pentonsin ATF1 in their 6HP ZF trans, but those puppies are pushing a TON more torque than anything VW makes. Those High torque X type R's and XJR's are pushing 150,000+miles with no failures. So lifeguard6 is really a mobil fluid! what a laugh that is. Mobile, that got sued for pushing mineral oil based group III fluids+ additives as synthetic?

2. Guy, unfortunately, I have the same ZF 6HP transmission in my other car: 2007 audi A6 quattro. Wanna see what that OEM cough syrup trans fluid looked like after only 40,000 miles?--> http://audiforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=141176 Please do some actual research before posting missinformation.
Thanks for the input. I didn't mean to post "misinformation," I was just unsure and found this site, and wanted someone with some knowledge of the matter to chime in.

When I went to Autozone and Advanced Auto yesterday, in my quest to find these products, the only "decent" transmission oil I found was a Mobil Synthetic ATF, and it said that it shouldn't be used for applications for Ford F type, LT71141, and Shell M-1375.4 (which is what BMW uses).

Does anyone have any transmission fluids that they have experience with so that I can better update my list on the first post? So far, the only fluids I have so far are:

1. BMW OEM ATF (Shell M-1375.4); Part Number: 83220142516 (sold by 1/2 Liter) OR go to a Land Rover Dealer and the Part Number is: LRN13754 for the same Shell M-1375.4
2. Pentosin ATF-1
3. Redline D4 ATF

Last edited by SE3P_to_E90; 02-02-2010 at 01:39 PM.
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      02-02-2010, 02:09 PM   #32
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1. BMW OEM ATF (Shell M-1375.4); Part Number: 83220142516 (sold by 1/2 Liter) OR go to a Land Rover Dealer and the Part Number is: LRN13754 for the same Shell M-1375.4
2. Pentosin ATF-1
3. Redline D4 ATF
My friend do me a favor and only use the fluids that I have highlighted. They are the only fluids, that I know of that are working in this vehicle. Everything else, would be an "experiment". Be very careful with this transmission.
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      02-02-2010, 02:47 PM   #33
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My friend do me a favor and only use the fluids that I have highlighted. They are the only fluids, that I know of that are working in this vehicle. Everything else, would be an "experiment". Be very careful with this transmission.
Thanks for the heads up; I think I'll end up picking up 9 QTS of the PENTOSIN ATF1. Also, when you did the fluid change, did you also change out the Oil Pan and Filter Kit for Automatic Trans GA6HP19Z (which Contains: (1) Oil Pan with Filter (1) Oil Pan Gasket (1) Filter O-Ring (1) Drain Plug)?

If so, do you recommend changing these out as well, or is it sufficient to do just the transmission fluid drain?
http://www.rmeuropean.com/Part-Numbe..._CE04B7F6.aspx
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      02-02-2010, 02:49 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SE3P_to_E90 View Post
Thanks for the input. I didn't mean to post "misinformation," I was just unsure and found this site, and wanted someone with some knowledge of the matter to chime in.

When I went to Autozone and Advanced Auto yesterday, in my quest to find these products, the only "decent" transmission oil I found was a Mobil Synthetic ATF, and it said that it shouldn't be used for applications for Ford F type, LT71141, and Shell M-1375.4 (which is what BMW uses).

Does anyone have any transmission fluids that they have experience with so that I can better update my list on the first post? So far, the only fluids I have so far are:

1. BMW OEM ATF (Shell M-1375.4); Part Number: 83220142516 (sold by 1/2 Liter) OR go to a Land Rover Dealer and the Part Number is: LRN13754 for the same Shell M-1375.4
2. Pentosin ATF-1
3. Redline D4 ATF
I will refer you to what I posted over in this thread. http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...10&postcount=3
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      02-02-2010, 03:16 PM   #35
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Thanks for the heads up; I think I'll end up picking up 9 QTS of the PENTOSIN ATF1. Also, when you did the fluid change, did you also change out the Oil Pan and Filter Kit for Automatic Trans GA6HP19Z (which Contains: (1) Oil Pan with Filter (1) Oil Pan Gasket (1) Filter O-Ring (1) Drain Plug)?
I just did a 7 Liter drain and fill. You don't need the other stuff until you get to around 100,000 miles.
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      02-02-2010, 03:44 PM   #36
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I will refer you to what I posted over in this thread. http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...10&postcount=3
Thanks for the input. I saw that post just before you posted! Anyway, as per your link, (http://www01apps.zf.com/kst464/ZF_In...011_en0700.pdf), it says that Audi /VW Oil No. G 055005 A1 / A2 / A6 could be used for my e90 (GA6HP19Z).

However, Pentosin ATF1 is listed for Audi / VW Oil No. G 052162 A1 / A2 / A6; world impex (http://www.worldimpex.com/item_detail.html?sku=249116) has it -- Compatible with OEM part number: G05-216-2A2 / G052162A2... which is apparently NOT for our transmission - 6HP19x, but rather for 4HP20, 5HP19, 5HP19FL (1), 5HP19FLA (2),5HP19HL (1), 5HP19HLA (2), 5HP24, 5HP24A (2)... As confused as I may be, it seems that the Pentosin ATF1 is suitable for ZF Lifeguardfluid5 rather than the recommended ZF Lifeguardfluid6... Now I'm back to square one trying to figure this out.

I know many have recommended (and use) Pentosin ATF1, and I was 99.9% committed to purchasing 9 QTS of this oil until raceyBMW posted that link. Can anyone that used Pentosin ATF1 chime in regarding their experience; i.e. increased mileage, smoother shifts, etc.?

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I just did a 7 Liter drain and fill. You don't need the other stuff until you get to around 100,000 miles.
Awesome. Again, thanks for your help! One quick question, I read that our Transmission Fluid capacity is 9.x liters... Were you short at all, or do you think 8 Liters/Qts is enough? I was originally going to pick up 9 Qts.
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      02-02-2010, 05:27 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by SE3P_to_E90 View Post
I know many have recommended (and use) Pentosin ATF1, and I was 99.9% committed to purchasing 9 QTS of this oil until raceyBMW posted that link. Can anyone that used Pentosin ATF1 chime in regarding their experience; i.e. increased mileage, smoother shifts, etc.? .
about the same gas milage, much SMOOTHER shifts, MUCHcooler transmission from inside below the glove box (you couldn't even keep your hands on it for long before).

Quote:
Originally Posted by SE3P_to_E90 View Post
Awesome. Again, thanks for your help! One quick question, I read that our Transmission Fluid capacity is 9.x liters... Were you short at all, or do you think 8 Liters/Qts is enough? I was originally going to pick up 9 Qts.
7 liters exactly, is all that will drain out. I've said this several times before.
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      02-08-2010, 12:22 PM   #38
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Add Castrol multi import transmisson oil too the list. ON castrols website it states it meets specifications for Shell M1375.4
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      02-08-2010, 06:41 PM   #39
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Add Castrol multi import transmisson oil too the list. ON castrols website it states it meets specifications for Shell M1375.4
I saw that oil at Autozone, but read on the back that it doesn't meet Shell -M1375.4. It was a relatively "cheap" oil as well compared to others out there. I also read somewhere on this forum that it was not good for our cars.

Eitherway, I ended up with 8 quarts of Pentosin ATF1... If someone has used the Castrol Multi Import Tranny Oil without problems, I'll be happy to post it.
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      03-08-2010, 04:10 AM   #40
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Any idea how much the Jaguar dealer charges for ZF LifeGuardFluid6 per liter?
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      03-08-2010, 04:49 PM   #41
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Quote:
You don't need the other stuff until you get to around 100,000 miles.
100K mls is the extended service period on the diff oil and coolant, just like the 15K mls on the engine oil. Diffs and water pumps have failed before reaching that mileage. If you're looking for a more reasonable service period, then 60K mls.
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      03-23-2010, 04:09 AM   #42
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I saw that oil at Autozone, but read on the back that it doesn't meet Shell -M1375.4. It was a relatively "cheap" oil as well compared to others out there. I also read somewhere on this forum that it was not good for our cars.

Eitherway, I ended up with 8 quarts of Pentosin ATF1... If someone has used the Castrol Multi Import Tranny Oil without problems, I'll be happy to post it.
It does meet Shell -M1375.4 standard.
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      03-23-2010, 07:46 AM   #43
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Ok here is the deal with ATF.

ZF 6HP requires Lifeguard 6 or OEM equilivant. It's base stock is Shell M-1375.5.
Lifeguard 6 is NOT a member of the ZF TE-ML 11B or 11A lubricant list. LG6 is slightly different which is why under the 6HP only see OEM equilivants listed and no reference to the 11B or 11A list of alternative fluids. http://www01apps.zf.com/kst464/ZF_In...011_en0700.pdf

Regardless of what the bottle says Pentosin Product Data Sheet (PDS) states ATF1 is NOT recommended for the ZF 6HP. Pentosin ATF1 is a member of the 11B list (Lifeguard 5). http://www.pentosin.de/flexxtrader/d...ATF%201_GB.pdf

Now when a bottle of ATF (Castrol Multi-vehicle for example) puts all these specifications on a bottle, what they're saying in best case scenerio is that that particular product meets ALL of those various requirements on the most basic level.
http://www.cartechbooks.com/vstore/s...=3578&CATID=21


Mercon SP and a Ford ATF ($4 quart) are also part of the Shell M-1375.4 family.
http://www.lubeandtune.com.au/html/lubekey.asp (Note: Amsoil sells an ATF fluid which meets Mercon SP, and when I asked about Lifeguard 6 for the ZF 6HP I was told that the Mercon SP spec is "on the low end" of the M-1375.4 family.

Now I've been told by Pentosin that there was an agreement between ZF and Shell over the Lifeguard 6 which is why ZF does not list an alternative fluid on their lubricant list, but their ATF1 would be fine for the 6HP when you're out of warranty.

As for cost? Lifeguard 6 is expensive becuase it's a lifetime fluid, so it wasn't meant to be changed. Your AT doesn't have a dipstick, and the refilling process is a PITA.


What would I do (In warranty)?: Your warranty is 50k miles or 100k miles max. If you're not getting the extended warranty just pay the dealer for an ATF change or find OEM equilivant fluid (Land Rover part# seems to be cheapest). It will only be a 1 time charge because you'll be out of warranty for the next change. Do the change before you hit 45k miles.

Out of warranty: Use whatever you want.


Note: Some people will say things like "well if you tune, you want to use X". Well here's the deal. My 335D puts out more TQ than just about any tuned 335i out there and Lifeguard 6 is the standard fill. And unless you're tracking the car all the time (unlikely with a A/T to begin with) you're probably fine.

From what I've been told if you wait until 50k miles to do a change, the new fluid will cause slippage because it does not have the worn off clutch material floating around.


Good luck!

Last edited by Socom; 03-23-2010 at 07:51 AM.
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      03-23-2010, 09:30 AM   #44
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Ok here is the deal with ATF. ZF 6HP requires Lifeguard 6 or OEM equilivant. It's base stock is Shell M-1375.5.
Where's your proof? Shell M-1375.4 is a specification. The base stock for Lifeguard6 is mineral oil. as seen in page 1 of the MSDS, under chemical breakdown: MINERAL OIL, ADDITIVES

http://www.tsgparts.net/images/pdf/Lifeguardfluid6.pdf

Quote:
Originally Posted by Socom View Post
Lifeguard 6 is NOT a member of the ZF TE-ML 11B or 11A lubricant list. LG6 is slightly different which is why under the 6HP only see OEM equilivants listed and no reference to the 11B or 11A list of alternative fluids. http://www01apps.zf.com/kst464/ZF_In...011_en0700.pdf
Then, why isn't it TE ML 11C since we know that A, B, and C denote ZF's longevity rating?

http://www01apps.zf.com/kst464/ZF_In...014_en0700.pdf

also, why is it not on any other list? Lifeguard5 for instance is given a rating of 11B. Castrol Transmax Z is given a rating of 11B, and 14C. Why is it superior to a fluid like tansmax Z which is tested to be 14C (i.e: suitable for 1,000+hours or 2 years in BUSes, and heavy duty industrial vehicles? Looking at the MSDS for transmax Z, you can see on page 1 under chemical breakdown that its: synthetic base, and proprietary additives:

http://www.msds.castrol.co.nz/msds.a...no=450358-NZ07

yet it's inferior to LG6? even transmax Z it has better KV @ 40C/100C, VI, and Flash Point?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Socom View Post
Regardless of what the bottle says Pentosin Product Data Sheet (PDS) states ATF1 is NOT recommended for the ZF 6HP. Pentosin ATF1 is a member of the 11B list (Lifeguard 5). http://www.pentosin.de/flexxtrader/d...ATF%201_GB.pdf.
weird, its on the brochure that its 6hp:
http://www.crpindustries.com/pentosi...ssionfluid.asp its ZF, that called pentosin up, and is bullying them into stating other, despite, relabelling their fliud as "lifeguard5" and charging 2wice the price.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Socom View Post
Now when a bottle of ATF (Castrol Multi-vehicle for example) puts all these specifications on a bottle, what they're saying in best case scenerio is that that particular product meets ALL of those various requirements on the most basic level.
http://www.cartechbooks.com/vstore/s...=3578&CATID=21.
No. Things written on the label, is called marketing. Thats why we look at the government required MSDS. Despite the fact that mineral oil based castrol multivehicle is TE ML 11A, its still superior to LG6, with higher Viscosity (thus more resistant to shear), and flash points.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Socom View Post
Mercon SP and a Ford ATF ($4 quart) are also part of the Shell M-1375.4 family.
http://www.lubeandtune.com.au/html/lubekey.asp (Note: Amsoil sells an ATF fluid which meets Mercon SP, and when I asked about Lifeguard 6 for the ZF 6HP I was told that the Mercon SP spec is "on the low end" of the M-1375.4 family.
For more precise information on this, See our discussion, which socom ran from: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=363648

Quote:
Originally Posted by Socom View Post
As for cost? Lifeguard 6 is expensive becuase it's a lifetime fluid, so it wasn't meant to be changed. Your AT doesn't have a dipstick, and the refilling process is a PITA.
I have pictures of this so called lifetime fluid in two of my cars, and It is clearly degraded by 40K miles (dark black and stinky) of light driving. Its original color is light brown. It is very easy to change your trans fluid. Just go to a local euro/import shop, and they have equipment to suck out the fluid and pump new fluid back in, like I and countless others have done. The dealership, won't do this, because they want to sell you a re-manufactured trans, and keep yours, for future re-manufacturing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Socom View Post
What would I do (In warranty)?: Your warranty is 50k miles or 100k miles max. If you're not getting the extended warranty just pay the dealer for an ATF change or find OEM equilivant fluid (Land Rover part# seems to be cheapest). It will only be a 1 time charge because you'll be out of warranty for the next change. Do the change before you hit 45k miles..
or for $4.68/quart, buy motorcraft Mercon SP, its the same thing.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Socom View Post
Note: Some people will say things like "well if you tune, you want to use X". Well here's the deal. My 335D puts out more TQ than just about any tuned 335i out there and Lifeguard 6 is the standard fill. And unless you're tracking the car all the time (unlikely with a A/T to begin with) you're probably fine.
yes, that LG6 is used in ALL 6 speed autos. from those handling extreme torque, to those handling very little. Was that smart? We know that LG6's sole use, was to provide gas milage savings only:
http://www.just-auto.com/ia.aspx?id=2403

Quote:
Originally Posted by Socom View Post
From what I've been told if you wait until 50k miles to do a change, the new fluid will cause slippage because it does not have the worn off clutch material floating around.
Good luck!
I changed my fluid with pentosin ATF 1, at 51K miles (Do a search for my write up with pictures), and that didn't happen! Your full of myths, and legends.

Last edited by Turkeybaster115; 03-23-2010 at 09:35 AM.
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