E90Post
 


GetBMWParts
 
BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Building from scratch - Machined Intake Manifold



Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      06-28-2016, 09:49 AM   #1
KTM
New Member
2
Rep
21
Posts

Drives: 2009 335i xdrive
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Iowa

iTrader: (0)

Building from scratch - Machined Intake Manifold

Hello,
I'm in the process of building up my E90 335i Xdrive and have been baffled by the price for port injection kits or the Evolution of Speed intake manifold w/ PI. Therefore I'm looking to build my own. I'm starting the manifold design right now and am looking to hear from you folk with more N54 experience. What type of features would make your 'ultimate intake'? Structural integrity and flow characteristics are obviously my principle concern, for which I will fun CFD/FEA simulations on whatever design I make to ensure a safe and high-performance intake manifold.

As of now I'm looking to include ports for adding fuel injectors, redesigning the flow path from the air box, ensuring equal runner length/cross-sectional area, and maximizing the plenum volume. What other things would you want if you were to be starting from scratch? I've seen the STETT intake for these cars and am highly considering designing around that cold-air intake as it frees up so much room for the manifold - any input on this?

I have wrought 6061 stock and a machine ready to go whenever I get this design done, so I'm really looking to do this quickly. As such, does anyone have an engineering drawing of the intake ports, or a model of the original intake? If not I'll snag a used OEM manifold to laser scan and re-engineer.

Thanks!
Kyle
Appreciate 0
      06-28-2016, 10:18 AM   #2
FCobra94
Brigadier General
FCobra94's Avatar
796
Rep
3,342
Posts

Drives: '07 E90 335i
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: MD

iTrader: (1)

Expected project completion: June 2026
__________________
'07 E90 335i - Automagic - Non-sport
MHD E60|Alpina Flash|Fuel It! Stg 2|VRSF:7"FMIC-DP-CP|TIAL BOV|cp-e DCI
Bilstein B6|E93 M3 FSB|SP Lowering Perches|M3 LCA|M3 Guide Rods|HPS 5.0
Summer: Sonic Tuning ST100 - 18x8.5 ET35 - Conti DWS 245/40/18 - 10/15 F/R spacers
Winter: Style 159 - 17x8 ET34 - Michelin X-Ice Xi2 225/50/17 - 10/15 F/R spacers
Appreciate 2
      06-28-2016, 10:29 AM   #3
KTM
New Member
2
Rep
21
Posts

Drives: 2009 335i xdrive
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Iowa

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by FCobra94 View Post
Expected project completion: June 2026
Thanks for the constructive comment, your air of superiority is duly noted.
Appreciate 0
      06-28-2016, 10:37 AM   #4
shadow191
Lieutenant Colonel
100
Rep
1,653
Posts

Drives: '07 E92 335i / '07 Infiniti FX
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: GA

iTrader: (3)

If you were really going to pursue this, why design around a STETT? Just use passenger side inlets. Stett still takes up a bunch of room over the charge pipe. I have a STETT sitting around and the only room you save is that the pipe is smaller than a cone filter. Still a lot of piping there.

Honestly $1500 doesn't seem that bad for the Evolution of Speed one. By the time you actually model everything, the time you've put into it would likely be more than the cost of that one. But that's just me. If you're doing this for fun and have the equipment, go for it.
Appreciate 2
      06-28-2016, 10:44 AM   #5
Torgus
Slow.
Torgus's Avatar
United_States
698
Rep
3,979
Posts

Drives: E90 & E92 with 487 ftlbs of tq
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Boston, MA

iTrader: (2)

Garage List
2007 BMW E92  [5.00]
2007 BMW E90  [0.00]
2006 BMW E91  [0.00]
1st get passenger side inlets. Don't design around any intake on the driver's side.

2nd you want a tapered log style IM with velocity stacks off the floor and away from the walls. Just look up basic intake design: http://horsepowercalculators.net/int...anifold-design

3rd you probably are not going to gain squat. Literally nothing. VAC stage 3 heads add no HP same with manifold. Now if you machined the manifold with larger runners and port matched & enlarged the ports then a stage 3 head might have some gains. If you are below 700whp you will has no gains.

So yeah it's kind of a waste of time unless you are making jam. Just copy the doc race intake manifold.
__________________
E92 Motive / E70 JBD / E70 JBD / E90 PTF retired
Got Boost?
Appreciate 1
      06-28-2016, 11:03 AM   #6
KTM
New Member
2
Rep
21
Posts

Drives: 2009 335i xdrive
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Iowa

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by shadow191 View Post
If you were really going to pursue this, why design around a STETT? Just use passenger side inlets. Stett still takes up a bunch of room over the charge pipe. I have a STETT sitting around and the only room you save is that the pipe is smaller than a cone filter. Still a lot of piping there.

Honestly $1500 doesn't seem that bad for the Evolution of Speed one. By the time you actually model everything, the time you've put into it would likely be more than the cost of that one. But that's just me. If you're doing this for fun and have the equipment, go for it.
That is really the biggest motivating factor for me, just for shits. I am a mech E with too many toys to play with, and not enough projects that I need to do. The time spent modeling or manufacturing any of these parts is negligible as it is my hobby.

Anyway, regardless I am trying to wind up with a port injection setup. That said, is the OEM design + ports for injectors completely adequate (a mimic of the Evolution of Speed manifold)?
Appreciate 1
      06-28-2016, 11:40 AM   #7
trixdout
Lieutenant
United_States
35
Rep
436
Posts

Drives: '11 335xi 6mt
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: NNJ

iTrader: (1)

Now if you can make the same IM work for both a n54 and n55 then you can even make more money, as the same unit will be interchangeable amongst the two differing platforms.
__________________
LMB , M-Sport, JB4 Stg. 2, AR catless res. dp, ETS cp
Appreciate 0
      06-28-2016, 11:45 AM   #8
Torgus
Slow.
Torgus's Avatar
United_States
698
Rep
3,979
Posts

Drives: E90 & E92 with 487 ftlbs of tq
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Boston, MA

iTrader: (2)

Garage List
2007 BMW E92  [5.00]
2007 BMW E90  [0.00]
2006 BMW E91  [0.00]
Just a public service reminder intake manifolds and worked heads have yet to show any real gains.
__________________
E92 Motive / E70 JBD / E70 JBD / E90 PTF retired
Got Boost?
Appreciate 2
      06-28-2016, 12:10 PM   #9
terryd5150
Head Fry Cook at McBurgertown
United_States
232
Rep
605
Posts

Drives: 2009 335i 6MT | 2006 325i AT
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Greenville, SC

iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Torgus View Post
Just a public service reminder intake manifolds and worked heads have yet to show any real gains.
Perhaps because these components aren't currently the primary restriction; look upstream....
Appreciate 0
      06-28-2016, 12:28 PM   #10
Torgus
Slow.
Torgus's Avatar
United_States
698
Rep
3,979
Posts

Drives: E90 & E92 with 487 ftlbs of tq
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Boston, MA

iTrader: (2)

Garage List
2007 BMW E92  [5.00]
2007 BMW E90  [0.00]
2006 BMW E91  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by terryd5150 View Post
Perhaps because these components aren't currently the primary restriction; look upstream....
go back to cooking burgers and fries!

I assume upstream you mean towards the engine. Lack of cams mean we are stuck with the stock lift.
__________________
E92 Motive / E70 JBD / E70 JBD / E90 PTF retired
Got Boost?
Appreciate 1
      06-28-2016, 12:34 PM   #11
terryd5150
Head Fry Cook at McBurgertown
United_States
232
Rep
605
Posts

Drives: 2009 335i 6MT | 2006 325i AT
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Greenville, SC

iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Torgus View Post
go back to cooking burgers and fries!

I assume upstream you mean towards the engine. Lack of cams mean we are stuck with the stock lift.
That's downstream, silly.

What happens before the intake?

I'm not allowed to do the burgers yet.
Appreciate 1
      06-28-2016, 01:47 PM   #12
Sshec152
Private First Class
United_States
28
Rep
160
Posts

Drives: 2007 335i coupe
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Delaware county

iTrader: (0)

I would definitely be interested in an intake manifold 1, if it was metal (so i could port match, not blow up from nls, and be polished), 2 if it was compatible with the stock chargepipe, and 3 if it had port injection built in like the eos manifold. Anything more than that would be icing on the cake.
Appreciate 0
      06-28-2016, 01:59 PM   #13
DennisPacMo
Private First Class
DennisPacMo's Avatar
39
Rep
108
Posts

Drives: 335xi
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: PDX

iTrader: (0)

DOC Race just tested their new intake manifold for the N54 the other day. It's similar in design to their S54 design but with changes for the location of the throttle body. You may want to take a peak at it.
Appreciate 0
      06-28-2016, 02:03 PM   #14
Torgus
Slow.
Torgus's Avatar
United_States
698
Rep
3,979
Posts

Drives: E90 & E92 with 487 ftlbs of tq
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Boston, MA

iTrader: (2)

Garage List
2007 BMW E92  [5.00]
2007 BMW E90  [0.00]
2006 BMW E91  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by terryd5150 View Post
That's downstream, silly.

What happens before the intake?

I'm not allowed to do the burgers yet.
I guess that would be the throttle body. Do you know what size the stock n54 is? Are you saying we need a 102mm TB
__________________
E92 Motive / E70 JBD / E70 JBD / E90 PTF retired
Got Boost?
Appreciate 0
      06-28-2016, 02:51 PM   #15
terryd5150
Head Fry Cook at McBurgertown
United_States
232
Rep
605
Posts

Drives: 2009 335i 6MT | 2006 325i AT
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Greenville, SC

iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Torgus View Post
I guess that would be the throttle body. Do you know what size the stock n54 is? Are you saying we need a 102mm TB
Well, the TB is one component that appears prior to the intake, but I suspect that if it's ≥ 76mm that it may not be the immediate problem.

Think of the bigger picture: what else is there? What is the system comprised of prior to that point?

I know you have this answer, my friend.

Last edited by terryd5150; 06-28-2016 at 03:01 PM.
Appreciate 0
      06-28-2016, 04:20 PM   #16
Torgus
Slow.
Torgus's Avatar
United_States
698
Rep
3,979
Posts

Drives: E90 & E92 with 487 ftlbs of tq
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Boston, MA

iTrader: (2)

Garage List
2007 BMW E92  [5.00]
2007 BMW E90  [0.00]
2006 BMW E91  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by terryd5150 View Post
Well, the TB is one component that appears prior to the intake, but I suspect that if it's ≥ 76mm that it may not be the immediate problem.

Think of the bigger picture: what else is there? What is the system comprised of prior to that point?

I know you have this answer, my friend.
Hmm....

For starters a cold side charge pipe that is not 3'' on most cars, an intercooler that does not have 3'' in and outs on most cars.

Terry's ST didn't show any gains with the headwork iirc. To quote him "I prefer to think of cylinder head porting as a "stealth" mod. It's so stealthy not even your dyno operator will know you've done it... "
__________________
E92 Motive / E70 JBD / E70 JBD / E90 PTF retired
Got Boost?
Appreciate 1
      06-28-2016, 04:52 PM   #17
terryd5150
Head Fry Cook at McBurgertown
United_States
232
Rep
605
Posts

Drives: 2009 335i 6MT | 2006 325i AT
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Greenville, SC

iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Torgus View Post
Hmm....

For starters a cold side charge pipe that is not 3'' on most cars, an intercooler that does not have 3'' in and outs on most cars.
Outstanding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Torgus View Post

Terry's ST didn't show any gains with the headwork iirc. To quote him "I prefer to think of cylinder head porting as a "stealth" mod. It's so stealthy not even your dyno operator will know you've done it... "
With certainty, Terry is correct in his position.

The entire system prior to the head has to be capable of outflowing a stock head before headwork will show substantial benefit.

The same can be said for a proven manifold design, such as the DR unit.

Use the approach above to find & remove the constraints prior to those components.

Last edited by terryd5150; 06-28-2016 at 05:05 PM.
Appreciate 0
      06-29-2016, 08:32 AM   #18
trixdout
Lieutenant
United_States
35
Rep
436
Posts

Drives: '11 335xi 6mt
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: NNJ

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Torgus View Post
Hmm....

For starters a cold side charge pipe that is not 3'' on most cars, an intercooler that does not have 3'' in and outs on most cars.

Terry's ST didn't show any gains with the headwork iirc. To quote him "I prefer to think of cylinder head porting as a "stealth" mod. It's so stealthy not even your dyno operator will know you've done it... "
All depends on the engine and where the restriction is. Maybe it could be the valvetrain.
__________________
LMB , M-Sport, JB4 Stg. 2, AR catless res. dp, ETS cp
Appreciate 0
      06-29-2016, 07:28 PM   #19
terryd5150
Head Fry Cook at McBurgertown
United_States
232
Rep
605
Posts

Drives: 2009 335i 6MT | 2006 325i AT
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Greenville, SC

iTrader: (4)

You Make a Somewhat Vaild Point. Does It Apply Here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by trixdout View Post
All depends on the engine and where the restriction is. Maybe it could be the valvetrain.
OK, then let's examine it closer and see if we can find the answer.

Let's answer the following questions regarding the valve train.

Part 1

* What would increasing duration do?
* What would increasing lift do?
* What would changing the rocker arm ratio do?

Part 2

* What would increasing the valve size do?
* What would porting the valve seat/unshrouding the valve do?
* What would a multi-angle valve job do?
* What would CCing the chamber do?
Appreciate 0
      06-30-2016, 06:27 AM   #20
Cory S
Major
Cory S's Avatar
United_States
185
Rep
1,112
Posts

Drives: 2011 335i-X
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: N.H.

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by terryd5150 View Post
OK, then let's examine it closer and see if we can find the answer.

Let's answer the following questions regarding the valve train.

Part 1

* What would increasing duration do?
* What would increasing lift do?
* What would changing the rocker arm ratio do?

Part 2

* What would increasing the valve size do?
* What would porting the valve seat/unshrouding the valve do?
* What would a multi-angle valve job do?
* What would CCing the chamber do?
All contribute to the same result. More cylinder fill.
__________________
2011 335i X-drive 6AT / Pure turbo / 500AWHP/526TQ
Appreciate 0
      06-30-2016, 10:13 AM   #21
terryd5150
Head Fry Cook at McBurgertown
United_States
232
Rep
605
Posts

Drives: 2009 335i 6MT | 2006 325i AT
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Greenville, SC

iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory S View Post
All contribute to the same result. More cylinder fill.
Excellent.
Appreciate 0
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:41 PM.




e90post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST