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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > VRSF 7" vs ETS 5"



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      10-02-2014, 07:16 PM   #1
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VRSF 7" vs ETS 5"

In process of ditching my Cobb and ETS 5" (running stage 2+ on shitty CO 91 octane) set up for JB4 G5 ISO + Meth + VRSF 7" FMIC. Other mods presently are ER CP, Forge DV, VRSF Khatless DP's. This is an XI with AT.

Just some pics for now of the FMIC's, installed the 7" today and went for short test drive. Will do some logs soon, using the Cobb stage 2+.

Install was straight forward, trimmed out much of the lower inner shroud with a Dremmel. Did not need to remove the front bumper fascia. Hardest part was the FMIC to lower charge pipe clamp going on the driver's side, man that was a bear to get seated and tight.

Here's a few pics of the 7" vs 5" side by side. It is HYOOOGE.









Next step is the JB4 and once I get comfortable with that and all buttoned down, BMS 2.3 gal trunk methanol kit. One of the things I am going after is high altitude heat soak. I live up in the Rockies at 8k ft ASL, and run up to 12k ft often. Never get much lower than 6k ft over in Durango area.

Heat soak on my typical climb from say 7500 in Pagosa Springs to 12000 Wolf Creek Pass is unreal. Keep in mind ambient is 10-11 PSI, DA on even a moderate day at the top can be over 16000 ft. Crazy. As a result you often see only 25-26 PSI absolute (15 boost + 10-11) on pulls "down" at 8k, and even then some timing will get pulled depending on how hot it is.

More later as I get this set up and debugged. Thanks to Jeff at Top Gear for good info and great prices.
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      10-04-2014, 03:20 PM   #2
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Nice!!
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      10-04-2014, 03:45 PM   #3
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Nic!! How long did that install take you?
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      10-04-2014, 05:08 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boyerstyle View Post
Nic!! How long did that install take you?
Thx.

Not very long, maybe 2 hrs after getting the car up on stands and the under panels off. I was dreading the dremmel trimming part but that turned out to be easy 15 minutes. I elected to just chop the entire lower shelf thing off and those two buttress things, and not bother with trying to leave a lip there. Spent far too long trying to get the drivers side top clamp on and tight, turns out it leaked anyway.

Oh one other thing, some people complain about a gap on top between lower radiator and FMIC. I think you get one if you try to put the two tabs on the radiator shroud into the tab holders on the back of the FMIC. This limits how high the FMIC can move up. But the tabs do not fit very well or flush, so I pulled the shroud back a bit and pushed it up all the way. No gap. Plus the screws then press the FMIC all the way up flush with the lower front shroud, which they would not do otherwise.

So like I said I had a small boost leak at WOT so today I did it all again, up on jacks and remove lower panels, tightened up the two top clamps, runs fine now, no leaks. Also ran through resetting and tightening clamps on the CP and forge diverter valves and checking vac lines etc. just to make sure.

Tomorrow hopefully JB4 goes in and start learning that. Then meth.
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      10-04-2014, 07:30 PM   #5
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I'm buying fmic,
Chargepipe, and downpipes once my warranty is up in December.

After reading your post I'm debating not installing it myself now. You made it sound tricky..
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      10-05-2014, 05:14 AM   #6
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Nah it's easy, just take your time.
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      10-05-2014, 09:35 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sgop335 View Post
Yes clamping the charge pipe on to the fmic hose was very hard. I also have a gap in the front. Mine is 7inch too.

Ajsalida, why did you replace the ets w the vrsf? Factory connections seem a lot easier.
I went with a 7" for sheer volume plus the fact that I am not sure the airflow is the as good with the stepped, the top part seems to just feed back into/obstruct the lower radiator. However I guess that is a good design to get more volume into a limited space without trimming. I went with VRSF 7" instead of ETS 7" mainly for price, VRSF is less than half the cost and still very good quality. Not sure what you are asking about with factory connections on the ETS they are not on either the VRSF 7" or the ETS 5".

The factory connectors are inferior to most aftermarket as far as restriction and flow. Smaller diameter and goofy accordion hoses. I also think the connector flow at least on the 7" VRSF is superior to the 5" ETS as the latter FMIC outlets are clearly smaller diameter (though still much better than stock). The input and output on the VRSF are huge (see pics) and that is part of why the hose on that one side was difficult to get situated.

As I said I live at very high altitude and was seeing serious signs of heat issues even at the moderate boost levels 91 octane FBO non meth tunes allow. So I was willing to deal with things like trimming shroud etc to get the largest volume and most cost efficient FMIC I could get in there just to see how it worked (short of eBay type giant FMIC's).

I did a few pulls with the new 7" and was getting zero timing corrections (I was before with the 5") and no apparent extra lag or other downside, and a quick run to the top of the pass indicated better IAT delta under light loads. Not massive but better. Outside temps were a bit different (lower) though so take all that with a grain of salt. Just to give you an idea the other day I ran up to the top with the 5" in and logged IAT's. Ambient at the top was high 50's, my charge temp was 115 deg F! With the 7" ambient was low 40's and charge temp at the top of the pass was 65, same speeds and light loads. This is a run from 7500-8000- ft to 12k ft in approx 8 very winding road miles.

I am no FMIC expert by any means but it also appears from the naked eye that the cast end tank design on the VRSF 7" may flow a tiny bit better than the welded box type construction of the ETS, esp at the top of the ETS where it looks like air would have a bit harder time getting distributed to the upper rows, don't know for sure though. See third pic above and pay close attention to the boxy welded parts of the ETS end tank vs the smooth cast part of the VRSF.

If you have a gap on the 7" next time you are under the car with the panels off check if you stuck the radiator shroud tabs into the aluminum ones on the FMIC. When I did that I could not tighten the two big screws up all the way, leaving the FMIC lower by 1/2". So I did not tuck those tabbs into the FMIC, I pulled the shroud back and it just hangs there, but that allows the FMIC to move up and the screws to be tightened all the way leaving no gap. Also there is a stock rubber strip type thing that goes under the radiator, kind of like a weather stripping that fits over one sharp edge of the lower radiator. That fills the small gap completely when you do the above WRT the fan shroud.

Last edited by ajsalida; 10-05-2014 at 10:49 AM.
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      10-05-2014, 10:43 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajsalida View Post
In process of ditching my Cobb and ETS 5" (running stage 2+ on shitty CO 91 octane) set up for JB4 G5 ISO + Meth + VRSF 7" FMIC. Other mods presently are ER CP, Forge DV, VRSF Khatless DP's. This is an XI with AT.

Just some pics for now of the FMIC's, installed the 7" today and went for short test drive. Will do some logs soon, using the Cobb stage 2+.

Install was straight forward, trimmed out much of the lower inner shroud with a Dremmel. Did not need to remove the front bumper fascia. Hardest part was the FMIC to lower charge pipe clamp going on the driver's side, man that was a bear to get seated and tight.

Here's a few pics of the 7" vs 5" side by side. It is HYOOOGE.









Next step is the JB4 and once I get comfortable with that and all buttoned down, BMS 2.3 gal trunk methanol kit. One of the things I am going after is high altitude heat soak. I live up in the Rockies at 8k ft ASL, and run up to 12k ft often. Never get much lower than 6k ft over in Durango area.

Heat soak on my typical climb from say 7500 in Pagosa Springs to 12000 Wolf Creek Pass is unreal. Keep in mind ambient is 10-11 PSI, DA on even a moderate day at the top can be over 16000 ft. Crazy. As a result you often see only 25-26 PSI absolute (15 boost + 10-11) on pulls "down" at 8k, and even then some timing will get pulled depending on how hot it is.

More later as I get this set up and debugged. Thanks to Jeff at Top Gear for good info and great prices.
Thanks for your continued support!

You live in extreme conditions so the data should be interesting.
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      10-05-2014, 10:45 AM   #9
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did you remove your bumper to install this?
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      10-05-2014, 10:47 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikex25 View Post
did you remove your bumper to install this?
Nope.
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      10-05-2014, 10:49 AM   #11
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Did you guys remove the fan when you installed IC?

I recently installed the 7" VRSF IC but didn't have any of the gap issues I see mentioned, but removed my fan so I could also replace my accessory belt and I'm just wondering if that's the difference?

So basically I installed the IC and then reinstalled the fan afterwards and all is well.
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      10-05-2014, 10:54 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller335 View Post
Did you guys remove the fan when you installed IC?

I recently installed the 7" VRSF IC but didn't have any of the gap issues I see mentioned, but removed my fan so I could also replace my accessory belt and I'm just wondering if that's the difference?

So basically I installed the IC and then reinstalled the fan afterwards and all is well.
I did not remove the fan. As I said earlier, if you try to put the two plastic tabs from the lower fan shroud into the aluminum tab holders on the back of the FMIC, it is going to sit lower.
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      10-05-2014, 11:01 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff@TopGearSolutions View Post
Thanks for your continued support!

You live in extreme conditions so the data should be interesting.
Well all of this, FMIC + JB4 + meth is hopefully in preparation for either super RB type hybrid turbos or a big single. Heat management is the key and much of what people do down low doesn't apply up here, not just because of altitude but fuel availability as well. 91 octane is the best pump and no e85. So it is just 91 + meth and tons of heat.

The hybrids make power with lots of boost and lots of fuel and lots of stress. It may be the single with very short runners (like PTF) to minimize radiated heat & lag, running same or less boost but not as stressed (ergo not as much heat) is the way to go. Trade offs everywhere including of course budget. At 12k ft ambient is 10 PSI so if you run a 3.0 pressure ratio you are still only at a pathetic 30 PSI absolute. Where as sea level a 3.0 PR is closer to 45 PSI absolute and 30 PSI boost.

High altitude tuning for boosted cars is like setting up a Pike's Peak hill climb car basically, I am not sure anyone is paying attention to it on the N54 yet. BTW Bandimere is not high altitude

The other thing is it is very difficult to get full 3rd gear pulls done around here, as you might imagine. There are places at 6500-7k ft where you can sneak some runs in but high up, no way. Not just cops but winding roads with no guard rails and 2000 ft drop offs kind of limit what you can do logging-wise.

Last edited by ajsalida; 10-05-2014 at 11:08 AM.
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      10-05-2014, 11:05 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajsalida View Post
I did not remove the fan. As I said earlier, if you try to put the two plastic tabs from the lower fan shroud into the aluminum tab holders on the back of the FMIC, it is going to sit lower.
So are you saying your fan isn't being supported at the bottom?
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      10-05-2014, 11:23 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller335 View Post
So are you saying your fan isn't being supported at the bottom?
The lower fan shroud is not supported the way I did it. Seems to not want to move or slide down. So far. I was kind of puzzled by this aspect of the VRSF design, because it really does not fit at all into the lower OEM fan shroud.

The ETS the tab holders on the back of the FMIC were closer together so they slipped onto the inner flat edge of the lower fan shroud, between OEM tabs, and the OEM tabs are not engaged to support the shroud. So lower shroud is supported, but not by the tabs. The VRSF tab holders are right in line with the OEM tabs but they don't exactly fit them. The tabs are too long and the gap on the holders too narrow to let them fit inside. I looked at trimming the shroud tabs off, but the shape of the shroud there at the tabs still won't fit into the tab holders without basically destroying the lower shroud.

So the choice is either extensively trim off the lower fan shroud around the tabs, stick the untrimmed tabs into the holders and have a big gap on top once the FMIC screws are tightened, or don't bother putting the tabs into the holder. I did the latter. If the fan shroud shows signs of moving around I'll have to reevaluate.

Hard to explain without pics.

edit: sorry this just came to me. It is possible when you installed the FMIC you did put it as high up as it could go, but then when you re-installed the fan shroud now it is sitting higher than it was. As long as there is no interference that should be fine. If I see my shroud slipping I will try that. One other thing I noticed, the lower fan shroud does block a good portion of the rear of the FMIC, so I wonder if that might be something to address later on, making it bigger to cover the whole lower FMIC or trimming it open. Do not want to lose the suction aspect though.

Last edited by ajsalida; 10-05-2014 at 11:57 AM.
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      10-05-2014, 11:24 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snaimpally View Post
VRSF also has a stepped 5" intercooler
http://www.x-ph.com/5-steppedcore-vrsf-intercooler/
Yes you are correct, but I think the volume and flow remarks vs 7" apply to it also. Stepped core is the way to go if you want max volume but don't want to trim anything. The VRSF has the advantage of non OEM couplers and smooth cast end tanks also. I do not think you get near the same volume as a 7" with a VRSF stepped core but I may be wrong.

I think if someone were to test it they might find 7" > 5" stepped core > 5", but I have not seen data to that effect. The main possible issue I have with stepped core, aside from volume, is flow up to the the upper part. I can't see how the air makes it up there and out efficiently, or if it does how it does it as well as a 7" with a more or less straight shot through, even if volume were identical.

edit: wanted to add that tests have shown pretty much any decent aftermarket FMIC is so much better than stock it isn't even funny. Comparing good quality aftermarket FMIC to each other, same sizes and form factors it is nearly a wash, or at least to me, not clear why one that cost 2-3 times more than another is worth it. Lot of what I am citing above like end tanks etc may be noise in an actual test. In my case as I have said I am messing around with fixing high altitude heat issues that cropped up with a already very high quality 5" FMIC. And so if an experiment of moving from a great 5" to a great 7" FMIC doesn't pan out I'd rather it be on a $400-ish FMIC than a $1k (or more) one

Furthermore if/when I move on to hybrids or a big single I want the FMIC meth and so forth well sorted and prepped for much higher airflow. I do not think the 5" will handle it, no matter who makes it, not if the current one is already pooping out on 91 stage 2+ cobb.

Last edited by ajsalida; 10-05-2014 at 12:20 PM.
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      10-05-2014, 11:28 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajsalida View Post
The lower fan shroud is not supported the way I did it. Seems to not want to move or slide down. So far. I was kind of puzzled by this aspect of the VRSF design, because it really does not fit at all into the lower OEM fan shroud.

The ETS the tab holders on the back of the FMIC were closer together so they slipped onto the inner flat edge of the lower fan shroud, between OEM tabs, and the OEM tabs are not used. The VRSF tab holders are right in line with the OEM tabs but they don't exactly fit them. The tabs are too long and the gap on the holders too narrow to let them fit inside. I looked at trimming the shroud tabs off, but the shape of the shroud there at the tabs still won't fit into the tab holders without basically destroying the lower shroud.

So the choice is either extensively trim off the lower fan shroud around the tabs, stick the untrimmed tabs into the holders and have a big gap, or don't bother putting the tabs into the holder. I did the latter. If the fan shroud shows signs of moving around I'll have to reevaluate.

Hard to explain without pics.
I understand what you're saying.
What I don't get is how I was able to get everything to line up fine.
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      10-05-2014, 12:22 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller335 View Post
I understand what you're saying.
What I don't get is how I was able to get everything to line up fine.
Well if you figure it out please let me know. Leaving the fan shroud hanging is not optimal but it was better than a big gap. I added an edit to the above comment on your install that might explain why yours worked out.
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      10-05-2014, 12:29 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller335 View Post
I understand what you're saying.
What I don't get is how I was able to get everything to line up fine.
Could be the fact he's an XI. I know I didn't have any issues with my HPF 7". I like the struts for the HPF FMIC as the thing is stupid heavy.

Does the VRSF use strut bars to bolt to the sway bar mounts for support?
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      10-05-2014, 12:35 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WedgePerformance View Post
Could be the fact he's an XI. I know I didn't have any issues with my HPF 7". I like the struts for the HPF FMIC as the thing is stupid heavy.

Does the VRSF use strut bars to bolt to the sway bar mounts for support?
That is a good point mine is an XI and AT. I know the subframe, sway bar, and so forth is different up there from non XI.

VRSF used to provide bars like that to mount but stopped after is was clear they weren't needed, according to Tiago. I was skeptical at first but after installing it is clear it isn't going anywhere.
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      10-05-2014, 02:22 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WedgePerformance View Post
Could be the fact he's an XI. I know I didn't have any issues with my HPF 7". I like the struts for the HPF FMIC as the thing is stupid heavy.

Does the VRSF use strut bars to bolt to the sway bar mounts for support?
Not the newer style.
It's not needed IMO, between the larger head screws and the upgraded piping with Tbolt clamps thing is in there solid.
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      10-06-2014, 12:13 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajsalida View Post
Yes you are correct, but I think the volume and flow remarks vs 7" apply to it also. Stepped core is the way to go if you want max volume but don't want to trim anything. The VRSF has the advantage of non OEM couplers and smooth cast end tanks also. I do not think you get near the same volume as a 7" with a VRSF stepped core but I may be wrong.

I think if someone were to test it they might find 7" > 5" stepped core > 5", but I have not seen data to that effect. The main possible issue I have with stepped core, aside from volume, is flow up to the the upper part. I can't see how the air makes it up there and out efficiently, or if it does how it does it as well as a 7" with a more or less straight shot through, even if volume were identical.

edit: wanted to add that tests have shown pretty much any decent aftermarket FMIC is so much better than stock it isn't even funny. Comparing good quality aftermarket FMIC to each other, same sizes and form factors it is nearly a wash, or at least to me, not clear why one that cost 2-3 times more than another is worth it. Lot of what I am citing above like end tanks etc may be noise in an actual test. In my case as I have said I am messing around with fixing high altitude heat issues that cropped up with a already very high quality 5" FMIC. And so if an experiment of moving from a great 5" to a great 7" FMIC doesn't pan out I'd rather it be on a $400-ish FMIC than a $1k (or more) one

Furthermore if/when I move on to hybrids or a big single I want the FMIC meth and so forth well sorted and prepped for much higher airflow. I do not think the 5" will handle it, no matter who makes it, not if the current one is already pooping out on 91 stage 2+ cobb.
In defense to most higher priced options like ETS and ER they are made and built in the US, which will by no accident have a large labor rate difference compared to ones made overseas. This is largely where the cost differences comes in.

I wanted to clarify that since people don't always think 360 on why things cost as much as they do or as to why they cost as little as they do, depending.

In the case of Cobb, it's just over priced and made overseas and they like dumb profit margins, to be blunt.
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