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      01-11-2010, 11:32 AM   #1
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What The MSDS, says about The forum's Popular Engine Oils

Hi guys, discussing engine oil, on this forum seems to really be but I think I have a new angle on this so I thought a new thread would be appropriate. It seems that when one looks at the MSDS of certain "synthetics" one finds that most of the popular brands are actually group 3 mineral oil based, not group 4 pao based lubricants.

Mobil 1 0W40 Seems to actually be 5-10% mineral oil basd:
http://www.msds.exxonmobil.com/psims/psims.aspx
0W-40 – Revised Dec 31, 2008
KEROSENE...0.1-1 %weight...What the
SLACK WAX (PETROLEUM), HYDROTREATED...50-60 %weight
Mineral Oil...5-10 %weight


Lubro moly 5W30 seems to be mineral oil based as well (Section 3):
http://www.worldpac.com/tagged/LM3706.pdf

Castrol Syntec 0W30 Mineral oil based:
http://datasheets.bp.com/ussds/amers...20NJ%20US).pdf

Castrol Edge 5W 30 mineral oil based:
http://www.castrol.com/liveassets/bp...5W_30_MSDS.pdf

Total/ ELF oil MSDS's--> http://www.elfcanada.ca/index.cfm?fu...roductOverview
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      01-11-2010, 06:44 PM   #2
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i'm total newbie when it comes down to all this oil talks. is group 4 better than group 3 oil? then which oil is in group 4 and in spec with bmw's long life?
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      01-11-2010, 06:47 PM   #3
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it's quite depressing when i do more and more search, i get confused more and more.

i initially thought oem bmw castrol synthetic was good (it probably is good enough still), but when i look for better oil for this car i get all this different opinions about royal purple, amzoil, redline etc etc and it got to the point i don't even know what to use any more...
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      01-12-2010, 10:53 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by hun77777 View Post
i'm total newbie when it comes down to all this oil talks. is group 4 better than group 3 oil? then which oil is in group 4 and in spec with bmw's long life?
I'm a newbie with oil talk too. I learn't everything I know from reading posts at the oil forum: www.bobistheoilguy.com. Funny thing is that the posts about the N54, are really, really long, and filled with a lot of debate, because the engine is Direct injection + extreme heat, so its a delicate issue even amongst the oil guys as to what to use. From what I've learn't Group 3 isn't as good as group 4 because the synthetic additives used over the mineral oil base, break down as the milage builds. Group 4 is safer because it has a synthetic base. Group 3 oils are getting away with being called "synthetic" by legal loop holes. They should be priced cheaper than Group 4, but over time, have become just as pricey, so buyer beware.

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      01-12-2010, 11:11 AM   #5
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it's quite depressing when i do more and more search, i get confused more and more.
i initially thought oem bmw castrol synthetic was good (it probably is good enough still),
Castrol, is fine. It got BMW LL01 approval. Even though it seems its more than likely a group 3. There is even a guy who has done an oil analysis of it at 6,000miles, and it was in very good condition--> http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...18#Post1434918 so 7,000mile drain intervals is ok for our engine.

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but when i look for better oil for this car i get all this different opinions about royal purple, amzoil, redline etc etc and it got to the point i don't even know what to use any more...
When looking for oil, I wouldn't touch anything that isn't BMW LL01+ approved. When looking for better oil, like me, Im looking for BMW LL01 approved oil, thats also group 4. Oil does come down to personal preference and brand loyalty, so thats why your seeing guys use different brands. Our engine does PUNISH oil, because it is fuel diluting(direct injection), and EXTREMELY hot. Personally, I USE Total oils. SO the BMW LL01+ group 4 oils they make are: INEO MC3 5W30, and Quartz 9000 0W30. for racing, I'll use their Racing Quartz 10W50(group 4 also). Since you have procede, I'd use the 10W50 if I were you.
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      01-12-2010, 02:35 PM   #6
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Quote:
for racing, I'll use their Racing Quartz 10W50(group 4 also)... I'd use the 10W50 if I were you.
Racing is a whole different application than the street. 10W50 is too heavy for street use and will prevent proper oiling of the engine. If you look at the viscosity ranges of BMW LL-01 approved oils, the Kv100 runs from a low of 11.3 to a high of 14.1. The Kv40 viscosity runs from a low of 63.6 to a high of 93.

The maximum weight you should run for street use is 5W40, even then some are too heavy, ie. Royal Purple 5W-40 has a Kv100 of 15.9 and a Kv40 of 94.2, it's too heavy.
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      01-12-2010, 04:31 PM   #7
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Racing is a whole different application than the street. 10W50 is too heavy for street use and will prevent proper oiling of the engine. If you look at the viscosity ranges of BMW LL-01 approved oils, the Kv100 runs from a low of 11.3 to a high of 14.1. The Kv40 viscosity runs from a low of 63.6 to a high of 93.
The maximum weight you should run for street use is 5W40, even then some are too heavy, ie. Royal Purple 5W-40 has a Kv100 of 15.9 and a Kv40 of 94.2, it's too heavy.
Well, during the summer at the track, my oil temps went to 280+, and my car shut down the turbos. This is was while using the factory synthetic! On the highway during the summer, I would regularly hit 250+ with the same BMW 5W30! Just like the M3's S54, our N54, is no joke. I'm more worried about the cooling of the turbos than I am about slight differences in viscosity, at room temp.

Also note that your 325I's engine, is very different from my 335I's.

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      01-12-2010, 05:30 PM   #8
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I'm more worried about the cooling of the turbos than I am about slight differences in viscosity, at room temp.
What are your oil temps now with 10W50 on the street in Illinois in the middle of winter?
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      01-12-2010, 05:48 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115 View Post
Castrol, is fine. It got BMW LL01 approval. Even though it seems its more than likely a group 3. There is even a guy who has done an oil analysis of it at 6,000miles, and it was in very good condition--> http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...18#Post1434918 so 7,000mile drain intervals is ok for our engine.



When looking for oil, I wouldn't touch anything that isn't BMW LL01+ approved. When looking for better oil, like me, Im looking for BMW LL01 approved oil, thats also group 4. Oil does come down to personal preference and brand loyalty, so thats why your seeing guys use different brands. Our engine does PUNISH oil, because it is fuel diluting(direct injection), and EXTREMELY hot. Personally, I USE Total oils. SO the BMW LL01+ group 4 oils they make are: INEO MC3 5W30, and Quartz 9000 0W30. for racing, I'll use their Racing Quartz 10W50(group 4 also). Since you have procede, I'd use the 10W50 if I were you.
that helps a lot. i have few more questions.

what other oil choices are out there that has BMW LL01 + group 4 oil besides total oils?

what's the difference between INEO MC3 5w30 and Quartz 9000 0w30?

lastly, where are you getting these stuff? online store? link? where can i get it cheapest?
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      01-12-2010, 08:31 PM   #10
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What are your oil temps now with 10W50 on the street in Illinois in the middle of winter?
I'm running ELF INEO 5W 30 right now. The 50 weight oil, I plan on using during the summer.
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      01-12-2010, 08:38 PM   #11
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that helps a lot. i have few more questions.

what other oil choices are out there that has BMW LL01 + group 4 oil besides total oils?

I believe amsoil's european formula is group 4. All you need to do is to take a look at the MSDS of an oil, which you can get by doing a search online.

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Originally Posted by hun77777 View Post
what's the difference between INEO MC3 5w30 and Quartz 9000 0w30?
INEO MC3 5W 30 is BMW LL04. This means that it is was tested to conform to BMW standards for 2004+. It was run for the same amount of time in a BMW M engine at redline, and lasted as long as the LL01. It has lower sulfur, and other compounds that are better for your car's catalytic converters, especially the diesel engine's cats.

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lastly, where are you getting these stuff? online store? link? where can i get it cheapest?
I'll pm you online links

Cheers.

Last edited by Turkeybaster115; 01-12-2010 at 08:47 PM. Reason: clever editing
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      01-12-2010, 11:21 PM   #12
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so to sum what you said, there's only 3 engine oils that meets LL01 and group 4 caterory at the same time and INEO MC3 5W30 also does meet BMW LL04?

is LL04 higher standard than LL01?

thanks for the link!
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      01-13-2010, 11:36 AM   #13
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Before pouring LL-04 in your gas-ignition motor, you might want to read what BMW says:

http://www.opieoils.co.uk/pdfs/BMW-O...s-and-Recs.pdf

LL-04 is for diesels. BUT NOT for gasoline engines - outside the EU - due to our piss poor gas quality.
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      01-13-2010, 11:45 AM   #14
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so to sum what you said, there's only 3 engine oils that meets LL01 and group 4 caterory at the same time?!
So far I have found 3: Total INEO MC3 5W30, and Total Quartz 9000 0W30, and amzoil european formular 5W 40--> http://www.raceoilz.com/AMSOIL%20Eur...20Motor%20Oil/ I'm sure there are more out there, you just have to do some research.

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and INEO MC3 5W30 also does meet BMW LL04?!
Yes, and so does The amzoil


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Originally Posted by hun77777 View Post
is LL04 higher standard than LL01?
thanks for the link!
Yes, technically. LL01 is standards set in 2001, while LL04 is standards for set in 2004. The only difference though is that LL04 oils are better for the catalytic converters for diesel engines, with low SAP's (Sulphated Ash, Phosphorus, Sulphur). The endurance testing though was the same.
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      01-13-2010, 11:52 AM   #15
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Before pouring LL-04 in your gas-ignition motor, you might want to read what BMW says:

http://www.opieoils.co.uk/pdfs/BMW-O...s-and-Recs.pdf

LL-04 is for diesels. BUT NOT for gasoline engines - outside the EU - due to our piss poor gas quality.
I buy european gas from BP (British Petroleum), or SHELL (dutch company), only. My car runs like shit, on any other type of gas, regardless of what type of oil I use.

http://www.harboursideautomarine.com...ech%20Talk.pdf
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      01-13-2010, 05:10 PM   #16
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since bmw is recommending 0w over 5w for cold start, i'm leaning towards 0w30 out of those two total oil choices.

according to the website, the difference between QUARTZ 9000 0W30 and QUARTZ INEO MC3 5W30 is that 0w30 is ACEA A3/B4, API : SL/CF whereas 5w30 is ACEA A3/B4/C3, API : SM/CF. Any idea what that means?

also, you area saying shell is better than chevron?
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      01-13-2010, 09:18 PM   #17
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Quote:
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Engine oil is far more complicated than what oil group it's based on. Anyone who thinks they can decide if one oil is better than the other without hundreds of thousands of dollars in oil analysis and durability testing is naive and should go to the SAE and do a lot of reading. A little bit of technical information can be dangerous. That's why every auto maker tells you exactly what oil you must run to protect your engine and warranty.
which is called LL01 and i'm just trying to find the one that are better than others within that BMW engine oil specification...
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      01-14-2010, 12:56 AM   #18
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which is called LL01 and i'm just trying to find the one that are better than others within that BMW engine oil specification...
Fair enough, but I don't think that it is possible. The only hard data point is the oil specification, and everything else is anecdotal or far too small of a sample size.

And besides, even within LL01 the oil that is best for 1,000 hard core drivers may not be the same oil that is best for 1,000 people driving to the grocery store. And in between there are thousands of variations.

But even a bad LL01 oil is pretty good stuff.
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      01-14-2010, 10:08 AM   #19
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Engine oil is far more complicated than what oil group it's based on. Anyone who thinks they can decide if one oil is better than the other without hundreds of thousands of dollars in oil analysis and durability testing is naive and should go to the SAE and do a lot of reading. A little bit of technical information can be dangerous. That's why every auto maker tells you exactly what oil you must run to protect your engine and warranty.
And you don't think that the oil "BMW North America" chooses is based on who their friends are?
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      01-14-2010, 10:17 AM   #20
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BMW's oil requirements are based on actual engine testing in the lab and in actual usage including extreme heat and cold and BMW engineers like to drive fast. There is no way possible for you, me or any typical consumer to accurately differentiate the performance differences between oils, let alone the BMW approved LL-01 oils, unless you want to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to have a qualified lab perform a year or more of testing.
I don't even put much faith in what BMW says anyways. All they did was design the engines. They aren't an oil manufacturing company, so they actually know nothing about oil. When the E46 M3 came out they recommended BMW 5W30, and every M3 owner used it. 2 Years and a couple of blown engines later, they now recommend and use Castrol 10W 60! So, if you were one of the few, owners who noticed your oil temps were a little too high with the 30 weight junk that BMW recommended at first, then you still have your 2001 BMW M3 intact.
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      01-14-2010, 10:56 AM   #21
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since bmw is recommending 0w over 5w for cold start, i'm leaning towards 0w30 out of those two total oil choices.
As long as you have procede, I wouldn't even use either of those choices. Neither of them can protect your engine against Extreme heat. I'd use Total 10W 50, so long as your outside temperature does not ever get colder than say 15 degrees.

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according to the website, the difference between QUARTZ 9000 0W30 and QUARTZ INEO MC3 5W30 is that 0w30 is ACEA A3/B4, API : SL/CF whereas 5w30 is ACEA A3/B4/C3, API : SM/CF. Any idea what that means?
I have no idea who ACEA is, or what their testing is all about. API is the american petroleum institute. They have their own tests, and SM is > SL according to them. But I would assume that they test the oils in US engines, which up untill recently, are not Direct Injection, and are typically Naturally Aspirated, so the engines aren't tough on oil in the first place.

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also, you area saying shell is better than chevron?
I used to use Mobil gas, but it seems (Perception) like my car runs better on BP, and shell, so I have been buying gas there. My engine got the shakes on a bad batch of Mobil gas once.
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      01-14-2010, 11:33 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115 View Post
I don't even put much faith in what BMW says anyways. All they did was design the engines. They aren't an oil manufacturing company, so they actually know nothing about oil. When the E46 M3 came out they recommended BMW 5W30, and every M3 owner used it. 2 Years and a couple of blown engines later, they now recommend and use Castrol 10W 60! So, if you were one of the few, owners who noticed your oil temps were a little too high with the 30 weight junk that BMW recommended at first, then you still have your 2001 BMW M3 intact.
They may not be an oil manufacturing company, however the engineers do know the tolerances of the running parts in the engine, and therefore know what oil/additives will make it run best. They make a standard (LL-01/04) on which oil to use, and then design parts to run around those standards. If you don't trust it, then fine use another oil, but where is your proof that there is something out there than the LL-01 oils for these cars?

The E46 M3 problem (spun rod bearings) was NEVER suggested to be a result of using 5w30, and BMW then switching from 5w30 to 10w60, there was absolutely no correlation between that. Yes the switch was done, but it was proven that they were just getting higher than warranted oil temps for those that tracked the car, so they upped the criteria. The rod bearing problem on the M3 was a whole other issue...a bad one yes, but not related to the oil weight.
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