E90Post
 


TNT Racewerks
 
BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Technical Forums > Mechanical Maintenance: Break-in / Oil & Fluids / Servicing / Warranty > What The MSDS, says about The forum's Popular Engine Oils



Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      01-14-2010, 11:51 AM   #23
Turkeybaster115
Banned
31
Rep
1,544
Posts

 
Drives: 335I
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Illinois

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by raceyBMW View Post
They may not be an oil manufacturing company, however the engineers do know the tolerances of the running parts in the engine, and therefore know what oil/additives will make it run best. They make a standard (LL-01/04) on which oil to use, and then design parts to run around those standards. If you don't trust it, then fine use another oil, but where is your proof that there is something out there than the LL-01 oils for these cars?.
Were're not saying the BMWLL approval is crap. Were just saying that in the world of oil, in general, manufacturers have realized that they can market their substand oils, buy clever labeling. amongst the BMW LL01 approved oil, if you look closely at the label, you will find various statements like: "Synthetic Based", "Synthetic Technology", "100% Synthetic", "Full Synthetic", "Fully Synthetic", "Synthetic". Were're just trying to find out what some of these clever statements mean.

Quote:
Originally Posted by raceyBMW View Post
The E46 M3 problem (spun rod bearings) was NEVER suggested to be a result of using 5w30, and BMW then switching from 5w30 to 10w60, there was absolutely no correlation between that. Yes the switch was done, but it was proven that they were just getting higher than warranted oil temps for those that tracked the car, so they upped the criteria. The rod bearing problem on the M3 was a whole other issue...a bad one yes, but not related to the oil weight.
A quick check on the M3 fourm, and some of these guys aren't even running the castrols. Some run redline 5W 40, and Total 10W 50. Goes to show you that most who run their car hard, have tried various oils, and end up using the ones that kept their guages lower. Can't say I blame them.

Last edited by Turkeybaster115; 01-14-2010 at 12:33 PM.
Appreciate 0
      01-14-2010, 12:09 PM   #24
Turkeybaster115
Banned
31
Rep
1,544
Posts

 
Drives: 335I
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Illinois

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrackRat View Post
OK so oil companies know more about engine design and testing than car company tribologist and engineers who actually test oils. I'll keep that secret tucked away for future reference. Thanks for the insight.
Go make Castol rich! But check back at your stealership every 6 months to see if they've changed the type of castrol you are running! Also ask for the original label on the re-labeled BMW oil. See if its "synthetically based, 100%, Full, Synthetic Technology"!!
Appreciate 0
      01-14-2010, 01:13 PM   #25
hun77777
Brigadier General
hun77777's Avatar
United_States
73
Rep
4,625
Posts

 
Drives: SG E92
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Seattle WA

iTrader: (58)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115 View Post
Were're not saying the BMWLL approval is crap. Were just saying that in the world of oil, in general, manufacturers have realized that they can market their substand oils, buy clever labeling. amongst the BMW LL01 approved oil, if you look closely at the label, you will find various statements like: "Synthetic Based", "Synthetic Technology", "100% Synthetic", "Full Synthetic", "Fully Synthetic", "Synthetic". Were're just trying to find out what some of these clever statements mean.
so what are the difference amoung those terms?

and although i have procede, i don't race or take my car to track, don't you think that 10w50 would be too thick? i don't hink they are not BMW LL01 or 04, neither in group 4...? and it does go below 15F occasionally in the winter time also...

if SM>SL, i think imma give TOTAL QUARTZ INEO MC3 5W30 a chance... where can i get this oil the cheapest?
__________________
SGE92TT......................... 12.331 Sec @ 117.89 Mph............................POWERED BY
l BMS DCI l HELIX IC l FORGE DVs l RR OCC & CP & SCOOPS l AR 3" DPs l AE QUADs l BLISTEIN PSS10 l P3 VENT GUAGE l VISHNU PROCEDE V4 AUTOTUNE l Lots of Window Stickers

Appreciate 0
      01-14-2010, 01:21 PM   #26
742
Major
11
Rep
1,190
Posts

 
Drives: E90 325i; F10 528i; 2002tii
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: PA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115 View Post
Were're not saying the BMWLL approval is crap. Were just saying that in the world of oil, in general, manufacturers have realized that they can market their substand oils, buy clever labeling. amongst the BMW LL01 approved oil, if you look closely at the label, you will find various statements like: "Synthetic Based", "Synthetic Technology", "100% Synthetic", "Full Synthetic", "Fully Synthetic", "Synthetic". Were're just trying to find out what some of these clever statements mean.

You might want to compare the ACEA standards with API. And BMW LL01.

http://sas-origin.onstreammedia.com/.../PC/index.html
Appreciate 0
      01-14-2010, 02:33 PM   #27
Turkeybaster115
Banned
31
Rep
1,544
Posts

 
Drives: 335I
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Illinois

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by hun77777 View Post
so what are the difference amoung those terms?
Marketing. The truth is in the MSDS. Its either mineral oil based + aditives, or its synthetic based.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hun77777 View Post
and although i have procede, i don't race or take my car to track, don't you think that 10w50 would be too thick? i don't hink they are not BMW LL01 or 04, neither in group 4...? and it does go below 15F occasionally in the winter time also...
The 10W 50 is group 4, SM, but not yet tested by BMW. It is however, highly recommended for M engines, and turbo charged engines, or any engine that runs hot. our normal operating temp is 240-250! It shouldn't be too thick because 135I guys use it all the time. You can use it during the summer and use the 0W30 or 5W30 during the summer. Its up to you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by hun77777 View Post
if SM>SL, i think imma give TOTAL QUARTZ INEO MC3 5W30 a chance... where can i get this oil the cheapest?
try a random search of online vendors.
Appreciate 0
      01-14-2010, 03:50 PM   #28
raceyBMW
king of the hills
raceyBMW's Avatar
United_States
29
Rep
2,832
Posts

 
Drives: 335i coupe
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Denver, CO

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
1994 530i  [4.25]
2007 335i Coupe  [4.07]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115 View Post
Were're not saying the BMWLL approval is crap. Were just saying that in the world of oil, in general, manufacturers have realized that they can market their substand oils, buy clever labeling. amongst the BMW LL01 approved oil, if you look closely at the label, you will find various statements like: "Synthetic Based", "Synthetic Technology", "100% Synthetic", "Full Synthetic", "Fully Synthetic", "Synthetic". Were're just trying to find out what some of these clever statements mean.



A quick check on the M3 fourm, and some of these guys aren't even running the castrols. Some run redline 5W 40, and Total 10W 50. Goes to show you that most who run their car hard, have tried various oils, and end up using the ones that kept their guages lower. Can't say I blame them.
Well, when I change my oil I use Mobil1 0w40, but then I live in a pretty harsh environment, and don't like to switch out different oils for summer and winter. If i were to live somewhere more mild, I too might go with something like a 10w50. I think a 0w40 is great for my climate though and the type of driving I do.

I agree, that if you find something that works, and if it noticeably lowers their oil temps, then that might be the right way to go. But probably not for everyone...for most just stick with the LL-01 oils, you at least can't go wrong that way.

Lots of good info on this thread though.
Appreciate 0
      01-14-2010, 04:20 PM   #29
F32Fleet
BMWCCA since '03
F32Fleet's Avatar
United_States
69
Rep
5,331
Posts

 
Drives: 2015 435i
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Atlanta (Vinings)

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115 View Post
Go make Castol rich! But check back at your stealership every 6 months to see if they've changed the type of castrol you are running! Also ask for the original label on the re-labeled BMW oil. See if its "synthetically based, 100%, Full, Synthetic Technology"!!
BMW branded oil state "Made In Germany" IIRC. You're being disengenious to suggest BMW swaps labels on domestic oil. Fact remains for non-track drivers, LL-01/LL-04 oil provides the best combination of protection and MPG's.

We're talking daily drivers, not daily driver + 4-5 track sessions, or dedicated track.

Choosing correct oil isn't rocket science.
Appreciate 0
      01-14-2010, 04:29 PM   #30
hun77777
Brigadier General
hun77777's Avatar
United_States
73
Rep
4,625
Posts

 
Drives: SG E92
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Seattle WA

iTrader: (58)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Socom View Post
Choosing correct oil isn't rocket science.
but choosing better oil does take some research it seems...
__________________
SGE92TT......................... 12.331 Sec @ 117.89 Mph............................POWERED BY
l BMS DCI l HELIX IC l FORGE DVs l RR OCC & CP & SCOOPS l AR 3" DPs l AE QUADs l BLISTEIN PSS10 l P3 VENT GUAGE l VISHNU PROCEDE V4 AUTOTUNE l Lots of Window Stickers

Appreciate 0
      01-14-2010, 04:35 PM   #31
hun77777
Brigadier General
hun77777's Avatar
United_States
73
Rep
4,625
Posts

 
Drives: SG E92
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Seattle WA

iTrader: (58)

ok. can someone tell me or point me what the number before W and after W means exactly? i thought 0w,5w,10w are for temp. and w30,w40,w50 are for thickness of oil? no?

i got little confused because until now, i've been using bmw 5w30 and now i see i could either use 0w30 or also use 10w50??? that seems to be very different kind of oils...
__________________
SGE92TT......................... 12.331 Sec @ 117.89 Mph............................POWERED BY
l BMS DCI l HELIX IC l FORGE DVs l RR OCC & CP & SCOOPS l AR 3" DPs l AE QUADs l BLISTEIN PSS10 l P3 VENT GUAGE l VISHNU PROCEDE V4 AUTOTUNE l Lots of Window Stickers

Appreciate 0
      01-14-2010, 05:23 PM   #32
raceyBMW
king of the hills
raceyBMW's Avatar
United_States
29
Rep
2,832
Posts

 
Drives: 335i coupe
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Denver, CO

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
1994 530i  [4.25]
2007 335i Coupe  [4.07]
first number is low temp viscosity, 2nd is high temp viscosity. They represent the viscosity at two operating temperatures...0F and 210F. Basically you want an oil thin enough when cold to flow, but thick enough to provide the protection the engine needs when hot. That's why those in the sunbelt don't need to use a 0w or 5w necessarily since they don't get to temps low enough to need a very low viscosity when cold.

Since a place like Seattle hardly ever goes below 0, you may not want to go with a 0w oil. Typically you want to keep the difference between the first number and second number as low as you can within the climate you are in. In CO, we can go from -15 in the winter to 105+ in the summer, which is why something like a 0w-40 is more desirable, unless you use a different oil in the summer and winter. Oils with bigger spread typically need more polymers to do so, which means they are more susceptible to breaking down after time. Synthetics usually don't have to use as many polymers (if any) to achieve this spread though, so that's why you usually see them with higher spreads between cold and hot viscosities.

For Seattle, a 5w-30 would probably be a better oil for you to provide the best protection.

Last edited by raceyBMW; 01-14-2010 at 05:46 PM.
Appreciate 0
      01-14-2010, 05:34 PM   #33
ToadHollow
Once upon a time ......
ToadHollow's Avatar
Italy
69
Rep
5,060
Posts

 
Drives: 2008 JB E92 - SOLD 5/2010
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Asti, Italy & Austin, Texas

iTrader: (16)

Garage List
2008 E92 335i  [4.00]
Send a message via MSN to ToadHollow
Let's NOT forget Motul is also LL01 approved ............

Castrol ....... do you really think BMW (or any other mfg.) would recommend a BRAND NAME or much less, stamp it on the oil filler cap of every BMW engine without there having been some type of $$$ incentive offered by the oil company?

Castrol has a financial interest that was enough for BMW to accept ........... no different than campaign contributions being made to a politician.

For those who have pointed out that BMW engineers "know which oil to use within the BMW engine due to the intricate makeup blah, blah blah ..." well, what about the fact that tests show/prove synthetic oils begin to break down @ 7-8k miles yet BMW engineers (or whomever) say that 15K miles is a safe oil change interval.

Yeah. Hopefully anyone following that schedule has leased the car & not purchased.
__________________



Appreciate 0
      01-14-2010, 07:20 PM   #34
hun77777
Brigadier General
hun77777's Avatar
United_States
73
Rep
4,625
Posts

 
Drives: SG E92
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Seattle WA

iTrader: (58)

Quote:
Originally Posted by raceyBMW View Post
first number is low temp viscosity, 2nd is high temp viscosity. They represent the viscosity at two operating temperatures...0F and 210F. Basically you want an oil thin enough when cold to flow, but thick enough to provide the protection the engine needs when hot. That's why those in the sunbelt don't need to use a 0w or 5w necessarily since they don't get to temps low enough to need a very low viscosity when cold.

Since a place like Seattle hardly ever goes below 0, you may not want to go with a 0w oil. Typically you want to keep the difference between the first number and second number as low as you can within the climate you are in. In CO, we can go from -15 in the winter to 105+ in the summer, which is why something like a 0w-40 is more desirable, unless you use a different oil in the summer and winter. Oils with bigger spread typically need more polymers to do so, which means they are more susceptible to breaking down after time. Synthetics usually don't have to use as many polymers (if any) to achieve this spread though, so that's why you usually see them with higher spreads between cold and hot viscosities.

For Seattle, a 5w-30 would probably be a better oil for you to provide the best protection.
yea. thank you for this information...

as Turkeybaster115 suggested, i would love to use 10W50 but, in seattle, it does go down to 10~20F some days in winter and that's what worries me using 10W50 which is very different type of oil from BMW castrol 5W30 that i've been using so far. i think imma give TOTAL QUARTZ INEO MC3 a chance to see if i like any better for my next oil change which is soon...
__________________
SGE92TT......................... 12.331 Sec @ 117.89 Mph............................POWERED BY
l BMS DCI l HELIX IC l FORGE DVs l RR OCC & CP & SCOOPS l AR 3" DPs l AE QUADs l BLISTEIN PSS10 l P3 VENT GUAGE l VISHNU PROCEDE V4 AUTOTUNE l Lots of Window Stickers

Appreciate 0
      01-14-2010, 07:50 PM   #35
TexAg06
Second Lieutenant
3
Rep
231
Posts

 
Drives: 2007 E90
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Houston, TX

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115 View Post

I used to use Mobil gas, but it seems (Perception) like my car runs better on BP, and shell, so I have been buying gas there. My engine got the shakes on a bad batch of Mobil gas once.

yes, it is perception. nearly all gas flows through the same transmission pipes. additives are added afterward. your better off rotating amongst a few good brands for the different combination of additives each uses. also, its important that you go to newer stations that have high use. you'll have less chance of contaminants from gas sitting in the tanks to long or old tanks.
Appreciate 0
      01-14-2010, 08:46 PM   #36
Turkeybaster115
Banned
31
Rep
1,544
Posts

 
Drives: 335I
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Illinois

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ToadHollow View Post
For those who have pointed out that BMW engineers "know which oil to use within the BMW engine due to the intricate makeup blah, blah blah ..." well, what about the fact that tests show/prove synthetic oils begin to break down @ 7-8k miles yet BMW engineers (or whomever) say that 15K miles is a safe oil change interval.
You think thats something, how about BMW NA interpreting "Lifetime fluids" to mean Forever, where as ZF, clearly defined "lifetime" transmission fluid to be between 40-60K depending on how hard you drive. Just try getting any stealership to change your BMW transmission fluid at any mileage. They won't do it. Then do a quick search as to how many ZF transmission rebuilding facilities are in your state!
Appreciate 0
      01-14-2010, 09:30 PM   #37
ToadHollow
Once upon a time ......
ToadHollow's Avatar
Italy
69
Rep
5,060
Posts

 
Drives: 2008 JB E92 - SOLD 5/2010
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Asti, Italy & Austin, Texas

iTrader: (16)

Garage List
2008 E92 335i  [4.00]
Send a message via MSN to ToadHollow
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115 View Post
You think thats something, how about BMW NA interpreting "Lifetime fluids" to mean Forever, where as ZF, clearly defined "lifetime" transmission fluid to be between 40-60K depending on how hard you drive. Just try getting any stealership to change your BMW transmission fluid at any mileage. They won't do it. Then do a quick search as to how many ZF transmission rebuilding facilities are in your state!
Lol
I hear ya man. Nothing is "lifetime" no matter how badly they want you to believe it.
__________________



Appreciate 0
      01-14-2010, 10:01 PM   #38
Turkeybaster115
Banned
31
Rep
1,544
Posts

 
Drives: 335I
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Illinois

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrackRat View Post
Actually lifetime oil recommendations are prescribed by numerous sources for trans and diffs. including the powertrain suppliers to the car makers. These recommendations are always for "normal service" situations. HD applications, extreme temps, etc. can require earlier drain intervals. Just because you don't understand the details doesn't make the oil recommendations for normal service invalid.
When I read your other posts, its hard to even reply to you. how does transmission fluid last over 125K miles?
Appreciate 0
      01-14-2010, 11:43 PM   #39
hun77777
Brigadier General
hun77777's Avatar
United_States
73
Rep
4,625
Posts

 
Drives: SG E92
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Seattle WA

iTrader: (58)

is good reputable tranny place usually be able to do transmission oil service? how many qrt of tranny oil do i need to purchase for drain and fill?

is it good idea of doing tranny and/or differential fluids at 50k? i'm approaching there soon
__________________
SGE92TT......................... 12.331 Sec @ 117.89 Mph............................POWERED BY
l BMS DCI l HELIX IC l FORGE DVs l RR OCC & CP & SCOOPS l AR 3" DPs l AE QUADs l BLISTEIN PSS10 l P3 VENT GUAGE l VISHNU PROCEDE V4 AUTOTUNE l Lots of Window Stickers


Last edited by hun77777; 01-15-2010 at 12:19 AM.
Appreciate 0
      01-15-2010, 07:45 AM   #40
ToadHollow
Once upon a time ......
ToadHollow's Avatar
Italy
69
Rep
5,060
Posts

 
Drives: 2008 JB E92 - SOLD 5/2010
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Asti, Italy & Austin, Texas

iTrader: (16)

Garage List
2008 E92 335i  [4.00]
Send a message via MSN to ToadHollow
Quote:
Originally Posted by hun77777 View Post
is good reputable tranny place usually be able to do transmission oil service? how many qrt of tranny oil do i need to purchase for drain and fill?

is it good idea of doing tranny and/or differential fluids at 50k? i'm approaching there soon
I believe tranny fluid is normally changed @ the 50-60K range .......... differential is usually done at the same time. I say normally as in what is generally recommended.

Every independant BMW shop I have ever visited for any type of service or "tech meeting" has ALWAYS laughed at BMW's "lifetime" fluids etc. Fluids (trans., diff. etc.) are not meant to retain their lubricity for a lifetime and WILL break down. BMW fluids are nothing special .......... yet they would want the vehicle owner to believe they are.
__________________



Appreciate 0
      01-15-2010, 08:17 AM   #41
TexAg06
Second Lieutenant
3
Rep
231
Posts

 
Drives: 2007 E90
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Houston, TX

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrackRat View Post
Actually lifetime oil recommendations are prescribed by numerous sources for trans and diffs. including the powertrain suppliers to the car makers. These recommendations are always for "normal service" situations. HD applications, extreme temps, etc. can require earlier drain intervals. Just because you don't understand the details doesn't make the oil recommendations for normal service invalid.
please describe normal service to us peons.
Appreciate 0
      01-15-2010, 12:21 PM   #42
Bcube
Been there, wrecked that.
7
Rep
547
Posts

 
Drives: '07 E93 335i
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: SoCal

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ToadHollow View Post
I believe tranny fluid is normally changed @ the 50-60K range .......... differential is usually done at the same time. I say normally as in what is generally recommended.

Every independant BMW shop I have ever visited for any type of service or "tech meeting" has ALWAYS laughed at BMW's "lifetime" fluids etc. Fluids (trans., diff. etc.) are not meant to retain their lubricity for a lifetime and WILL break down. BMW fluids are nothing special .......... yet they would want the vehicle owner to believe they are.
Depends upon which definition of "lifetime" you are using. A manufacturer's definition of lifetime does not mean forever. With automobiles, it is usually 10yrs /100K to 120K miles depending on Fed or State laws.
__________________
-Brian
~199K miles. I -still- don't fear my 335i.
Appreciate 0
      01-15-2010, 12:27 PM   #43
ToadHollow
Once upon a time ......
ToadHollow's Avatar
Italy
69
Rep
5,060
Posts

 
Drives: 2008 JB E92 - SOLD 5/2010
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Asti, Italy & Austin, Texas

iTrader: (16)

Garage List
2008 E92 335i  [4.00]
Send a message via MSN to ToadHollow
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bcube View Post
Depends upon which definition of "lifetime" you are using. A manufacturer's definition of lifetime does not mean forever. With automobiles, it is usually 10yrs /100K to 120K miles depending on Fed or State laws.
Lifetime does however define the expected lifetime of the vehicle which is almost certain to be much longer 10 years/100K miles.

Whatever verbiage that can be used by the car maker to further entice a prospective buyer into believing they have nothing to worry about regarding maintenance etc. The average owner of any vehicle isn't going to have a clue that there are normal expectations & then there are the exaggerated claims being made.

We as enthusiasts know better ........ hopefully.
__________________



Appreciate 0
      01-15-2010, 12:38 PM   #44
raceyBMW
king of the hills
raceyBMW's Avatar
United_States
29
Rep
2,832
Posts

 
Drives: 335i coupe
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Denver, CO

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
1994 530i  [4.25]
2007 335i Coupe  [4.07]
Don't forget Coolant on these cars is considered a lifetime fill as well even though they still use the same coolant as any other year.
Appreciate 0
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:40 AM.




e90post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST