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      12-20-2011, 07:42 PM   #111
marlbore
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All the speakers listed here are either no longer sold or very expensive.

So for those looking for Cheaper replacement speakers under $200 a pair,
I did some research and here are the list of speakers you can still purchase today They should be shallow enough to fit the doors of our e90,91,92,93 (no guarantees as I never installed them)

DLS PERFORMANCE C4 - $125

Rockford Fosgate FNP1414 - $60

FUSION - $60

CDT Audio CL-42 - about $200
CDT AUDIO CL-41/25 PRO - about $180

MTX TX4001 - $150

Out of these, I would recommend CDT or MTX as they are not Dirt cheap and seems to have somewhat of a decent quality.

If i had money I'd still buy Focals/Morels/Diamond audio though..
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      12-21-2011, 01:43 AM   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marlbore View Post
All the speakers listed here are either no longer sold or very expensive.
I recommend that you keep researching. Pretty sure none of the speakers you mentioned will fit your E92.
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      12-21-2011, 10:19 AM   #113
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Any of these subwoofers for under the seats work with the stock Logic 7 system (including amp), and give a noticeable difference?
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      12-31-2011, 12:21 PM   #114
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Underseat enclosures:


In order for a particular driver to give the desired results, it is important to put it into the correct enclosure. Some drivers are designed for extremely small enclosures, others for extremely large ones (Infinite Baffle). Much speculation has been voiced over the years (including myself) regarding the exact volume and type of the enclosures (sealed, ported, or Infinite Baffle). After some extensive research, here is what I have found:

- The underseat enclosures have an internal volume of approx. 0.08 ft3 (measured myself) and are made out of plastic
- The enclosures are connected to the car's side sill cavities via a "port" which is roughly 1.5" high and 7" wide.
- The side sill cavities are roughly 1.4 ft3 in volume (measured by Lee Rambler)
- The side sill cavities are "wet cavities" (translated from German) meaning they are not completely sealed and they are "more or less" open to the outside (holes filled with plastic plugs that leak air).
- The port between the underseat enclosure and the side sill is too small and acts like a "Helmholz-Resonator" which has a dampening effect on frequencies between 70 and 200Hz.

There are subwoofer modeling programs available to predict the performance of various drivers in all types and sizes of enclosures, but it has proven pointless to interpret the results of individual drivers due the the "unknown enclosure type and size factor" and especially due to the "Helmholz-Resonator" effect which makes this application virtually impossible to model with conventional methods. However , while the absolute results of modeling cannot be interpreted, there is still value in analyzing the relative results. So if we know for a fact - through overwhelming positive feedback on this forum - that a particular driver works "well" in this application, then we can assume that other drivers that model similarly, would also produce similar results. ("well" in this case has a very subjective meaning, but it should basically mean that the driver produces a relatively flat frequency response in its intended frequency range. Note that most of the above are midbass drivers, where the intended FR is between 50 and 200Hz, and some are woofers or subwoofers, where the intended FR is 30 - 100Hz).

The "benchmark driver", so to speak, in my mind can only be the Jehnert XE200, since the response from customers has been overwhelmingly positive. It has been reported that its FR is fairly linear (without any major peaks), that is produces tight, clean bass notes down to about 40Hz, and that it has excellent midbass up to the cutoff frequency (around 150 - 200Hz in most cases) to ensure a seamless transition with the door mids. Note that I have not tested this particular driver myself, so I personally cannot weigh in on the sound of the "benchmark driver".

With that said, I went ahead and modeled all the above drivers I had the required specs for. I used three different enclosures, a "small" sealed box with 0.5 ft3 total air space, a "large" sealed box with 1.5 ft3 air space, and a simulated Infinite baffle enclosure with 999 ft3.

I'm not gong to overanalyze the below results, but in all 3 very different enclosures there seems to be a "grouping" of 4 drivers whose responses are very similar: Jehnert XE200, Kicker SSMB8, Morel CW-8 and Morel MW265-8. You can draw your own conclusions but for me, any of those drivers will do a great job with bass and mid-bass under the seats of our cars. For proper sub-bass, you need a trunk sub or if you can live with less output, and crappy mid-bass, go for the SWS-8.
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      12-31-2011, 01:48 PM   #115
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It is always tricky to say "we can't model this... But here's what my modeling says".

Many of you recall me saying that the ADMW 9 wants a bigger box than we have... This chart reflects the same point I've made.

However, the model ONLY indicates the effect of the enclosure on the low-end roll off with small signals. This program can,t predict freq response in the region which is not affected by the enclosure/driver interaction - which is to say, the lower bound attenuation.

An enclosure acts as a high-pass filter. The sw programs actually use filter-theory math to model them. Above the region affected by the filter, the program doesn't predict the response.

The program also doesn't predict large-signal response nor distortion components.

So, if you interprete Kai's graphs solely in light of "how low does it go, and how pesky is it down there without eq" then this data is really useful. It can't predict behavior at volume and it can't predict behavior related to distortion output nor transient accuracy (pulse response).

If I were to do a pulse response test in my car, that would be very cool. But I only have the morels and the jehnert and the sws - the kickers being discontinued. Maybe in January, after I get the test products out of my car...
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      12-31-2011, 01:49 PM   #116
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Why no sws-8?
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      12-31-2011, 02:07 PM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VP Electricity View Post
Why no sws-8?
I forgot! Fixed!
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      12-31-2011, 03:00 PM   #118
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Ok, two more things - cabin gain isn't linear, so this should NOT be used to predict in-car response... And the small-signal modeling explains why underseats aren't enough - because this response doesn't hold with large signals.
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      12-31-2011, 03:42 PM   #119
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Kai , can we use this modelling to predict what the best crossover points would be for the various woofers?
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      12-31-2011, 06:00 PM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdgatti View Post
Kai , can we use this modelling to predict what the best crossover points would be for the various woofers?
I'm not sure I'm qualified to answer that question.

What I usually go by, and what has worked best for me in the past, is to go by ear. I would shut off the subwoofer and keep lowering the x-over until I either hear distortion and/or a sharp drop-off near the cut-off point. Then I would raise the dial up a notch or two. Once I have found that point, I leave it there for a few days and listen to all sorts of music, at various volume levels, and make sure I'm happy with it. Then, and only then, I bring back the sub. Generally speaking, the x-over point should be above the driver's Fs (resonance frequency) but some drivers may actually work slighty below it. Keep in mind, the Fs is where the driver will want to play with beaucoup distortion! (the enclosure can sometimes help the driver play below the Fs, and keep distortion in check)

On the other end, the cutoff frequency is actually determined by the door midrange's ability to play as low as possible. So you do the same thing, this time only play the doors and shut off the woofers and sub. This time though, because it is a free-air installation, you want to stay comfortably above the midrange driver's Fs.

In my case the Morel woofers have an Fs of 38Hz and I am crossing them over at 55Hz with a 12dB/oct slope. The Legatia midranges have an Fs of 113Hz and I have them high-passed at 150Hz with a 24dB/oct slope.
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      12-31-2011, 07:09 PM   #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VP Electricity View Post
The program also doesn't predict large-signal response nor distortion components.

So, if you interprete Kai's graphs solely in light of "how low does it go, and how pesky is it down there without eq" then this data is really useful. It can't predict behavior at volume and it can't predict behavior related to distortion output nor transient accuracy (pulse response).

If I were to do a pulse response test in my car, that would be very cool. But I only have the morels and the jehnert and the sws - the kickers being discontinued. Maybe in January, after I get the test products out of my car...
Yes, in principal I agree with you. If one of the drivers were a Kraco from Wallymart, with a 1/2" VC, 2 mm p-p xmax and "1000W" power handling, I would also not trust the results. However, I have personal experience with one of the Morels and the other one looks identical and also has a 3" VC, so I'd say those two can probably "hang" with the Jehnerts as the model would suggest. The ADMW-9's model terribly and your first-hand experience confirms this. And the Kicker we know is also a proven driver for this application, so I'd say this somewhat primitive modeling approach seems to be fairly accurate indicator for in-car performance.

What other Morel driver did you test? If you want I can add it to the graphs.
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      12-31-2011, 08:40 PM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdgatti View Post
Kai , can we use this modelling to predict what the best crossover points would be for the various woofers?
I would say no. You need to see both response and distortion plots to try to map it out on paper. Best thing to do is what Kai said and use your ear. Also, the models shown are pretty consistent with the models I did 2 years ago using the MW267, SWS-8, ADMW 9 and I think I included the Aura as well. Also, from my own experience switching from the SWS to the ADMW, the modeled response looks to be pretty accurate. Like VP said, there are some things that cannot be simulated in the model so I wouldn't take what you see on the graph as absolute.
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      01-29-2012, 03:24 PM   #123
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Anyone fit a set of DLS into an E82? (I know, wrong forum, but this is the most comprehensive list of aftermarket replacement speakers in any of the Bimmerpost forums...)

Something like:

http://www.dls.se/en/car/prod.html?produkt=en_58

or

http://www.ebay.com/itm/DLS-REFERENC...357893#vi-desc
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      01-31-2012, 01:36 AM   #124
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just put two 10'' active car subwoofer to add some bass
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      01-31-2012, 06:46 AM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan_h
Anyone fit a set of DLS into an E82? (I know, wrong forum, but this is the most comprehensive list of aftermarket replacement speakers in any of the Bimmerpost forums...)

Something like:

http://www.dls.se/en/car/prod.html?produkt=en_58

or

http://www.ebay.com/itm/DLS-REFERENC...357893#vi-desc
Probably too deep with 60 mm.
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      02-08-2012, 12:58 PM   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaigoss69 View Post
Probably too deep with 60 mm.
Good to know. But:

Morel Hybrid Ovation II 4 with the Top Mount Depth: 50 mm

should work, yes?
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      02-08-2012, 02:47 PM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan_h View Post
Good to know. But:

Morel Hybrid Ovation II 4 with the Top Mount Depth: 50 mm

should work, yes?
Ask R Curley. He just installed a set, I believe.
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      02-08-2012, 05:25 PM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VP Electricity View Post
Ask R Curley. He just installed a set, I believe.
Thanks. A quick search doesn't yield anything but I'll try some combos.

Would you mind PM-ing me a price on a pair of the Jenhart 8inch underseat woofers with mounting for an e82?
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      02-12-2012, 10:37 PM   #129
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Why no mention of the AudioSystem x-ion BMW 8s in the first post? They appear to be another vendor in Europe, like Jehnert, who make specific after market replacement speakers and mounting hardware for BMWs.
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      02-13-2012, 10:51 PM   #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan_h
Why no mention of the AudioSystem x-ion BMW 8s in the first post? They appear to be another vendor in Europe, like Jehnert, who make specific after market replacement speakers and mounting hardware for BMWs.
FWIW theyre listed in the ToC thread
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      02-14-2012, 09:42 AM   #131
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They are a 3-way set I believe, so the woofers may not be available individually. Also, AFAIK, they are only available in Europe.
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      02-14-2012, 09:59 AM   #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaigoss69 View Post
They are a 3-way set I believe, so the woofers may not be available individually.
Correct, comes as 3-way. You can only order the half kit (mids and tweeters, no underseats)

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=170691
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