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      02-14-2012, 10:34 AM   #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaigoss69
They are a 3-way set I believe, so the woofers may not be available individually. Also, AFAIK, they are only available in Europe.
I think ken can get them
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      02-14-2012, 11:08 AM   #134
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Sure, I've had two different vendors (one in New Mexico, one in Florida) offer to sell me the 8inch underseats, on their own, one set new in box, one set used.

Which is all I need, since I already have a set of the morels (mids and tweets) with VP's mounting hardware.

But the price difference between the AudioSystem 8inchers and the Jehnert's is not so great as to persuade me it's not a foolish economy (save 20%, but maybe be less satisfied). And they are still 2x the cost of the Kickers (including an aftermarket set of spacers), if one can find the Kickers...
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      02-14-2012, 11:33 AM   #135
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Really wish kicker would put ssmb8 back in production
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      02-15-2012, 12:20 PM   #136
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I posted this on the MS-8 thread as well since we were having the same discussion over there....




Success with the Jehnerts!

Ordered a set from MusicarNW a couple weeks ago, my hope was to be able to get rid of my trunk sub for utility reasons. I goal was to get "good enough" bass from the underseats for regular listening.

Install was a breeze, I was done in less than an hour. Got the MS8 fired up, did some calibration and it seemed that "good enough" wasnt going to happen, just not enough output. So plan B took over and I left the trunk sub in and calibrated some more, fiddled around and ultimately was 100% happy with the sound quality. The midbass was as close to perfect as I have heard. Solid but open, up on the dash, sweeeeeeeet!

So yesterday I got to thinking....I wonder if I went "old school" and ignored what the MS-8 wanted to do and just adjusted the underseat woofers by ear on my amp and EQ, could I get them "good enough" to leave the trunk sub out most of the time and not really miss it?

Turns out the answer is YES....

I ended up bumping up the gain a bit on the amp and doing about a 3db rise down to about 50hz on the 32 band EQ. And it sounded pretty damn good! Almost equivalent to my trunk sub when I had it set to a normal comfortable level. And the Jehnerts didnt seem to have any problem with it, still great SQ, just playing lower.

And as proof to myself that it was going to work I left all the settings overnight, got in the car this morning, put on some music, and my first thought was "I need to turn the woofers DOWN a tiny bit".

I left my sub amp and a speaker plug in the car so I can throw my sub back in the car if I want to show it off, I set up a different "favorite" on the MS-8 with the optimum settings for running the sub so its easy for me to switch back and forth. So going from optimal settings with sub to optimal settings with underseats as subs is just one switch on my amp (hp xover) and one setting on the MS-8.

Certainly if you are a bass head this is not for you, but for regular listening and preserving trunk utility it seems they fit the bill.

Last edited by jeffb335; 02-15-2012 at 12:28 PM.
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      03-31-2012, 10:10 AM   #137
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How hard is to set up 5.25'' for the front speakers?
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      03-31-2012, 11:55 AM   #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpunkyXL
How hard is to set up 5.25'' for the front speakers?
I know a guy in edison nj who can do it...the question is why?!?
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      04-04-2012, 01:18 PM   #139
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Just got a 335i LCI with L7 system. I'm not sure what I want to upgrade and what the best approach is, etc, so hopefully some advice to available to pass out.

I've only had the car 4 days, so I also don't want to jump into anything major yet like removing door cards and running wires to xovers.

Could I get that harness and go with SWS 8s under the seat and be happy with bass and overall SQ? What amp size would I need for them and where do people run the amp from? What's the first thing I should do for a little extra low end or to improve it overall?

Maybe a sub and amp to go with the rest of the oem system?

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      04-05-2012, 10:30 AM   #140
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Equalizing the Jehnerts

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffb335 View Post
I posted this on the MS-8 thread as well since we were having the same discussion over there....




Success with the Jehnerts!

Ordered a set from MusicarNW a couple weeks ago, my hope was to be able to get rid of my trunk sub for utility reasons. I goal was to get "good enough" bass from the underseats for regular listening.

Install was a breeze, I was done in less than an hour. Got the MS8 fired up, did some calibration and it seemed that "good enough" wasnt going to happen, just not enough output. So plan B took over and I left the trunk sub in and calibrated some more, fiddled around and ultimately was 100% happy with the sound quality. The midbass was as close to perfect as I have heard. Solid but open, up on the dash, sweeeeeeeet!

So yesterday I got to thinking....I wonder if I went "old school" and ignored what the MS-8 wanted to do and just adjusted the underseat woofers by ear on my amp and EQ, could I get them "good enough" to leave the trunk sub out most of the time and not really miss it?

Turns out the answer is YES....

I ended up bumping up the gain a bit on the amp and doing about a 3db rise down to about 50hz on the 32 band EQ. And it sounded pretty damn good! Almost equivalent to my trunk sub when I had it set to a normal comfortable level. And the Jehnerts didnt seem to have any problem with it, still great SQ, just playing lower.

And as proof to myself that it was going to work I left all the settings overnight, got in the car this morning, put on some music, and my first thought was "I need to turn the woofers DOWN a tiny bit".

I left my sub amp and a speaker plug in the car so I can throw my sub back in the car if I want to show it off, I set up a different "favorite" on the MS-8 with the optimum settings for running the sub so its easy for me to switch back and forth. So going from optimal settings with sub to optimal settings with underseats as subs is just one switch on my amp (hp xover) and one setting on the MS-8.

Certainly if you are a bass head this is not for you, but for regular listening and preserving trunk utility it seems they fit the bill.


Please let us know how this works out in the long run. I have the Jehnert underseat speakers in my 335i as well, but no MS-8 to boost them. I understand that Jehnert recommends rolling off the bass at 80 Hz, which I thought would be to protect the voice coils from being fried by excessive low frequency power. The voice coils in these speakers are only 1 inch diameter, which is relatively small.

I have no high pass filter on mine and find the bass is adequate for me, but nothing to talk about. I drive my Jehnerts with two channels of a JL 600/6 amplifier. Has anyone had any long term success with equalizing the Jehnerts to extend the bass range like jeffb335 has done?
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      04-05-2012, 11:03 AM   #141
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B-737 had them running all the way down on a dsp zapco
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      04-05-2012, 12:18 PM   #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redz06 View Post
I have the Jehnert underseat speakers in my 335i as well, but no MS-8 to boost them. I understand that Jehnert recommends rolling off the bass at 80 Hz, which I thought would be to protect the voice coils from being fried by excessive low frequency power.
Jehnert's English web site is not the best, I'm afraid, and others have had questions about this matter. When they say:

"- good for kick-bass (with subsonic filter starting with 80 Hz)"

They are referring to use as a dedicated midbass. They do not recommend an 80 Hz highpass for the woofer UNLESS you are using it as a midbass and you have a subwoofer. THis is not clear on the English page of their website (I dont' read German, so I can't comment on the German page). In speaking with Jehnert on this matter, they chose 80 assuming the use of second-order 12dB slopes, steeper slope filters can use lower highpass frequencies per their recommendation. I've verified this with them, it's not my opinion - it's the manufacturer clarifying their recommendation.

I would ask questions about your low-pass crossover frequency and things like that, but in this case I won't. I will tell you that we have yet to lose one - ONE - voice coil of ANY Jehnert XE200 woofer (knock on wood : ) and we've used them with 600/6 (75W), we've used them on the back 4 channels of a 600/6 bridged (150Wx2), we've used them on 100Wx2 from Zapco DC350 and DC1000 and DC650, and we've used them on all four channels bridged to two with an Arc Mini 125.4!

Given that we have installed very many of them and we seem to have better results than you have had, I would sincerely recommend checking your installation again. Your results are really not consistent with my experience, and I don't want anybody to get mediocre results from good gear, whether they buy from us or not.
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      04-06-2012, 08:53 PM   #143
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Bass EQ

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Originally Posted by VP Electricity View Post
on the German page). I would ask questions about your low-pass crossover frequency and things like that, but in this case I won't. I will tell you that we have yet to lose one - ONE - voice coil of ANY Jehnert XE200 woofer (knock on wood : ) and we've used them with 600/6 (75W), we've used them on the back 4 channels of a 600/6 bridged (150Wx2), we've used them on 100Wx2 from Zapco DC350 and DC1000 and DC650, and we've used them on all four channels bridged to two with an Arc Mini 125.4!

Given that we have installed very many of them and we seem to have better results than you have had, I would sincerely recommend checking your installation again. Your results are really not consistent with my experience, and I don't want anybody to get mediocre results from good gear, whether they buy from us or not.
VP - great to hear that you have tons of experience using the Jehnert 8" speakers in the BMW underseat enclosures with the same amplifier as I am using and even higher power amplifiers without frying a voice coil. You did not state whether you have been equalizing the Jehnerts as JeffB has with 3dB boost at 50 Hz.

Not sure where you are coming from on the reference to getting better results than I have had, or the inference about mediocre results from good gear. Perhaps you need to re-read my post. My gear sounds quite good without the bass boost, but I am not trying to replicate what is possible with a true subwoofer either.

PS: The low pass filter to the Jehnerts is achieved at 200 Hz, using the filter that is built into the JL 600/6.
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      04-06-2012, 10:31 PM   #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redz06 View Post


I have no high pass filter on mine and find the bass is adequate for me, but nothing to talk about.


No high pass filter means you are running them full range on the bottom end. No way to extend beyond that well.

But saying the bass is nothing to talk about is interesting. They should actually be just about the best bass possible in their location in this application with that amplification. If that's not the case, there is something wrong in the setup, as vp implies.

Quote:
I drive my Jehnerts with two channels of a JL 600/6 amplifier. Has anyone had any long term success with equalizing the Jehnerts to extend the bass range like jeffb335 has done?
This is boosting the bass region but not extending it. But sure, EQ can make them seem more linear down low.
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      04-07-2012, 10:24 AM   #145
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Adequate for me

Nathan - Nothing to speak about = I am not going to go on and on to describe the excellence of the underseat sspeaker sound. In no way does it imply that there is anything wrong with the setup or the installation. It is adequate for my purpose.

Let me explain it to you by analogy. When asked how is the acceleration of your BMW 335i, my reply would be "it is adequate for my purpose". Does that mean my car is not running correctly or that I do not drive it well? No it does not. My purpose for the BMW is to be my daily driver. My other car is a 2008 Corvette Z06 and despite the fact that it is 100% stock, it makes the BMW seem pretty tame in comparison.

Now look at JeffB's situation. He has been runing a subwoofer which was removed for good reason. His system with the Jehnert but without the subwoofer was not satisfactory in comparison so he has added EQ to the Jehnert (same as adding a massive turbocharger to my BMW). My question was, will it last over the long run? The same question would apply if I were to use a big turbo to extract about 550HP from my BMW.
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      04-07-2012, 12:19 PM   #146
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Or, you formed an opinion about how mediocre they were before you installed them, as are letting your expectation prevent you from looking for the performance others claim. I thought the speaker looked unprepossessing. Once i got my test set, i went some time without installing them, I was so skeptical of their appearance. My results were not commensurate with my initial judgments.

But mostly, of course, this post is for people who might benefit from such advice. Pretty sure I could say the sun is shining and you'd think that meant it's dark out.
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      04-07-2012, 03:54 PM   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redz06 View Post
Nathan - Nothing to speak about = I am not going to go on and on to describe the excellence of the underseat sspeaker sound. In no way does it imply that there is anything wrong with the setup or the installation. It is adequate for my purpose.

Let me explain it to you by analogy. When asked how is the acceleration of your BMW 335i, my reply would be "it is adequate for my purpose". Does that mean my car is not running correctly or that I do not drive it well? No it does not. My purpose for the BMW is to be my daily driver. My other car is a 2008 Corvette Z06 and despite the fact that it is 100% stock, it makes the BMW seem pretty tame in comparison.

Now look at JeffB's situation. He has been runing a subwoofer which was removed for good reason. His system with the Jehnert but without the subwoofer was not satisfactory in comparison so he has added EQ to the Jehnert (same as adding a massive turbocharger to my BMW). My question was, will it last over the long run? The same question would apply if I were to use a big turbo to extract about 550HP from my BMW.
Thanks for the explanation. I read "nothing to speak about" = "nothing to write home about":

Quote:
"nothing to write home about"

Fig. of speech meaning:
mediocre; not as good as you expected.

Examples:
1) I went to that new restaurant last night. It's nothing to write home about.
2) Jill: I went to see a movie last night. Jane: How was it? Jill: Nothing to write home about.
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      04-08-2012, 12:10 AM   #148
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Taxes

VP - I did a lot of reasearch on this site and others before I purchased/installed the components I did. They are the same parts that you offered to sell to me for $2250. I installed them for $750 less than you advertised. I bought them thinking that they would sound a whole lot better than those which BMW installed, and they do. I directly purchased the speakers, mounting rings, passive crossovers, and wiring harnesses, basically everything which your kit offers except your "know how and experience". I installed the system at my leisure and would say that the install was not difficult, though it does take an amateur like myself several hours. By design, the system is simple with no DSP and little adjustability. I have adjusted the amplifier gain and passive crossovers by ear to please my taste and I am good with it.

I asked the forum a simple question about whether the midwoofers can be bass equalized (+3 dB @ 50 Hz) without long term negative consequences and am waiting for that answer from our forum members with that experience.

Rather than answering my question you seem to be on a quest to prove that my installation (of the same components you are offering) is deficient. I can only guess that this attitude is your way of trying to justify the markup you are putting on the components, which is separate from the additional cost of installing them.

I seriously doubt that there is anyone on this forum that believes your experience at installing these same components(as I installed) in the same BMW cars is without value. I value your experience and opinion -- when I (and others) on this forum can get it without the attitude. You have said that forum members must suffer your attitude as the "tax" on the pearls of wisdom you dispense. My thinking is different from yours. I think that you should be satisfied with the free advertising your business gets on this forum, and keep your tax to yourself.
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      04-08-2012, 12:22 AM   #149
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Just one thing... Vp electricity is a paying sponsor of the forum.
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      04-08-2012, 12:24 AM   #150
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It's not free. VP pays for his presence here as a vendor. And some of us end up installing essentially the same gear that he offers, based on him sharing his extensive experience and the results of his testing, without paying for his work.

I'm not saying it's a one way relationship. I'm sure he gets customers he wouldn't have otherwise gotten, by being here, paying to be a sponsoring vendor, and freely sharing his knowledge and designs with us.

But it's far from free advertising. In fact I'm surprised that any premium vendor does what he does.

I have to admit, I read your post the same way he did, that you were saying your sound is deficient, "nothing to speak about". I have much of the same gear, though also with dsp, and have pretty high standards for audio, and I think this gear sounds phenomenal.

I agree, ymmv regarding the attitude tax. I find it entertaining but that's a ymmv thing, I'm sure.
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      04-08-2012, 04:24 AM   #151
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Re: Taxes

VP - my apologies on the "free advertizing" remark since you are a paying vendor. I would rather you not put it in our face so much, as I have seen it from you several times before.

I did research the purchase of all of my sound system extensively and I came into this install expecting that the Jehnert and the Hybrid Ovation II speakers would be top of the line. This is the position that I formed through research, and my expectations have not changed. I did extensive checking during the installation to ensure there are no cold solder joints or poor plug connections. Everything in the install is fine. While the SQ of the Jehnerts is very good, the Hybrid Ovation II speakers are exceptional.

As I am not interested in installing a subwoofer and dedicated amp, and am not convinced that equalizing the Jehnert speakers is a good long term solution, I will be leaving this car audio system as-is. I am happy with it.

I guess my mileage does vary as I find the taxes in poor taste rather than entertaining.
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      04-08-2012, 10:15 AM   #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redz06 View Post
While the SQ of the Jehnerts is very good, the Hybrid Ovation II speakers are exceptional.
This is interesting. I have the Morel HOII, but I am still using the OEM underseat woofers (albeit with a lot of power and EQ).

Is it bass extension or punch that is not top notch?

In terms of raw spl I'll probably blow out the OEM underseat sub, but I am impressed for now -- not as precise as I'd like but they can pressurize the cabin.

I'm hoping that when I upgrade to the Jehnerts, I retain that ability to pressurize the cabin BUT also get something considerably more accurate...

You comment makes me wonder -- not about your install, but about my planned upgrade.
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      04-08-2012, 12:00 PM   #153
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I think you just need to try to bump up the output in the Jehnerts. If they sound good with no audible distortion at the volume you normally play them at, then try it out for a week or so. A little common sense goes a long way here. If they sound like they are at their limit, maybe cut them back a little. I don't think anyone here can tell you whether it will be fine long term or not because no one knows exactly how you have your system setup, what your listening habits are, etc. The only way to find out is to try.
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      04-08-2012, 08:56 PM   #154
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Mid-woofer Stuff

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Originally Posted by Nathan_h View Post
This is interesting. I have the Morel HOII, but I am still using the OEM underseat woofers (albeit with a lot of power and EQ).

Is it bass extension or punch that is not top notch?

In terms of raw spl I'll probably blow out the OEM underseat sub, but I am impressed for now -- not as precise as I'd like but they can pressurize the cabin.

I'm hoping that when I upgrade to the Jehnerts, I retain that ability to pressurize the cabin BUT also get something considerably more accurate...

You comment makes me wonder -- not about your install, but about my planned upgrade.
Nathan, I will say that all of my observations are subjective, as I currently have no SPL meter or CD with test tones to facilitate an objective test.

I ran my 8" OEM underseat woofers with my JL anplifier for a couple of weeks before replacing them with the Jehnert 8" speakers, using the adjustable sensitivity on the channels driving the underseats to raise the amplitude a lot. The OEM underseat speaker bass was more noticeable with the added power of the JL, but the SQ was still pretty poor IMO. Since replacing the OEM underseat speakers with the Jehnerts the SQ is much better with maybe a bit more bass extension than the OEM speakers had. Degree of punch is all all a matter of how high I want to run the sensitivity control on the underseat woofers. I have kept the highpass to the speakers in the front doors fixed at 200 Hz for all of this.

Without any hard measurements, I am willing to believe the Jehnerts are rolling off (-3 dB) at about 70 Hz, as Kaigoss69 predicted with his bass simulator program. I am currently running more gain via the sensitivity knob on the channels feeding the Jehnert speakers than the HOII setup. As I am out of state now, I will have to get the relative positions of the sensitivity knobs on the JL 600/6 to you in a few days. I will go ahead and tweak the gain up on the underseat channels a bit as recommended by 808MGuy, to see if I can get a little more punch w/o overwhelming the HOII speakers.

You asked whether the area for potential improvement was more in the area of bass extension or punch. I think my preference would run more to bass extension. This is the reason for my questions about forum members long term experience with EQ using Jehnert underseats.

It sounds like you are getting ready to make some of the experience which I was asking about, so I look forward to hearing of your experience and also how much bass equalization you are running with the Jehnerts.

808MGuy, as noted above, I will raise the gain to my Jehnerts a bit to see how I like more midbass punch. As I am not running any bass equalization, I don't think a bit more power will put the Jehnerts into trouble, at least over the short run. I do take comfort from VPs reported experience of never blowing a Jehnert voice coil.

Since raising the amplifier gain will raise the output power/speaker sound level over the frequency range from say 70 Hz to 200 Hz, I expect I will notice when the gain is excessive when the underseat speakers start to dominate the midrange sound.

I am definitely not a basshead with my preferred music being blues/rock. My reference point is my home hi-fi system, which includes Magnaplanar 1.6 speakers driven by a Bryston amplifier. This system is extremely linear and musical between 40Hz and 18kHz.
redz06 is offline   United_States
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