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      01-28-2010, 12:32 PM   #1
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Transmission fluid choices for AT

I don't know if anybody used either ones. some people pointed out and mentioned shell M-1375.s is OEM transmission oil for AT but i also found some mentioned Pentosin ATF-1 as well. Also, i found that Red Line D4 ATF is equivalent to shell m-1375.s as well. which one would you guys pick out of those two?

looks like autohous have both in stock at good price. just matter of finding out how many bottles and which will benefit me more.

pentosin ATF-1 - $15.18 per bottle (per bottle)
Red Line D4 ATF - $9.69 per bottle (per quart)

i'm not planning to drain from TQ convertor so i guess i'm looking at 8liters/quarts at most to be on the safe side...

just thought i'd share this info and see what any of you guys think or have experience with before i order...
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      01-29-2010, 01:20 PM   #2
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anyone has any idea at all?
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      01-29-2010, 04:17 PM   #3
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The OEM oil that BMW sells is ZF Lifeguard 6....(BMW Part No. 8322 0142516).

There are two specifications you are trying to meet with the ATF...ZF's spec for the tranny (TE-ML 11) and BMW's spec, which is Shell M1375.4

Now there are four types of oil that I have found that meet BMW spec shell M1375.4
BMW OEM (ZF Lifeguard6)
Pentosin ATF-1
Red Line D4
Castrol Import Multi-Vehicle

But only two of those seems to have ZF spec TE-ML 11, OEM and the Pentosin. The Pentosin is the one I would stick to...for me this is the more important spec to meet since it is the one ZF itself specifies. Plus the Pentosin can be had for ~15-20 per liter, where the OEM at the dealer is ~$45, which is just stupid.

The thing I can't find is how Shell M1375.4 spec relates to TE-ML 11.

BTW, a lookup of the part no. above pulls up the Pentosin ATF-1...so it may not be OEM, but it is OE for sure.

http://www01apps.zf.com/kst464/ZF_In...011_en0700.pdf

Transmission = ZF 6HP19Z
http://www.justanswer.com/questions/...bmw-m54-e60-04

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      01-29-2010, 04:35 PM   #4
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From what I can tell Shell M-1375.4 is the OEM propriety fluid. So ZF Lifeguardfluid6, BMW OEM, Jaguar OEM, etc. are all the same Shell fluid.

http://www.just-auto.com/ia.aspx?id=2403

Quote:
Thanks to their strong relationship with ZF, Shell Lubricants were invited to submit proposals for working with the company to develop a transmission fluid for a new six-speed transmission for passenger cars at ZFs Saarbrucken site in Germany. In order to secure the contract, Shell Lubricants had to demonstrate they had the necessary logistics in place and the production facilities and technology available to produce high volumes of the product. Shells response was development of Shell ATF M 1375.4, manufactured at its specialist blending plant, Grasbrook in Germany. As a result, Shell was awarded an exclusive contract to supply up to 6,500 fluid tonnes per year of Shell ATF M 1375.4.
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      01-29-2010, 04:50 PM   #5
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So Shell M1375.4 IS the fluid, not just the spec. That clears that up, thanks! So TE-ML 11 is the spec that Shell M1375.4 was made to I suppose.
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      01-29-2010, 04:55 PM   #6
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For further backup, take a look at this:
Shell 1375.4 is BMW # 83 22 0 142 516
Attached Images
File Type: pdf BMW AT Fluids.pdf (43.5 KB, 1326 views)
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      01-29-2010, 10:26 PM   #7
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thanks for the information guys.

i just contacted all the local bmw dealers and bmw seattle quoted $21.90 per liter.
i just double confirmed with part department guy but they are quoting whopping $379+tax for the labor on top...



Quote:
Originally Posted by raceyBMW View Post
The OEM oil that BMW sells is ZF Lifeguard 6....(BMW Part No. 8322 0142516).

There are two specifications you are trying to meet with the ATF...ZF's spec for the tranny (TE-ML 11) and BMW's spec, which is Shell M1375.4

Now there are four types of oil that I have found that meet BMW spec shell M1375.4
BMW OEM (ZF Lifeguard6)
Pentosin ATF-1
Red Line D4
Castrol Import Multi-Vehicle

But only two of those seems to have ZF spec TE-ML 11, OEM and the Pentosin. The Pentosin is the one I would stick to...for me this is the more important spec to meet since it is the one ZF itself specifies. Plus the Pentosin can be had for ~15-20 per liter, where the OEM at the dealer is ~$45, which is just stupid.

The thing I can't find is how Shell M1375.4 spec relates to TE-ML 11.

BTW, a lookup of the part no. above pulls up the Pentosin ATF-1...so it may not be OEM, but it is OE for sure.

http://www01apps.zf.com/kst464/ZF_In...011_en0700.pdf

Transmission = ZF 6HP19Z
http://www.justanswer.com/questions/...bmw-m54-e60-04
again, thanks for all the info but can you direct me where it says pentosin is OE spec but not Red Line D4? i read it twice but couldn't find it anywhere...???
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      01-31-2010, 09:55 PM   #8
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I don't have absolute proof of that other than a search of the BMW part no. for the fluid also brings up the Pentosin fluid, and that it has the ZF TE-ML 11 approval, same as the OEM (lifeguard 6) fluid. That is what I am basing that off of...otherwise I don't know for sure.

http://www.pentosin.com/flexxtrader/...ATF%201_GB.pdf
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      02-01-2010, 12:00 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raceyBMW View Post
I don't have absolute proof of that other than a search of the BMW part no. for the fluid also brings up the Pentosin fluid, and that it has the ZF TE-ML 11 approval, same as the OEM (lifeguard 6) fluid. That is what I am basing that off of...otherwise I don't know for sure.

http://www.pentosin.com/flexxtrader/...ATF%201_GB.pdf
Thanks for the link! The Pentosin data sheet shows approval for ZF TE-ML 11B. Looking at the ZF TE-ML 11 data sheet, the only AT transmissions where 11B is applicable are:

3HP22, 3HP22Q, 4HP14Q,
4HP18FL (1), 4HP18FLA (2), 4HP18FLE (1),
4HP18Q, 4HP18QE,
4HP22, 4HP22EH, 4HP22HL (3),
4HP24, 4HP24A (2)
and 5HP18 depending on the tag at the fill port.

Personally, I am not putting in fluid that doesn't meet the published data.
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      02-01-2010, 02:16 PM   #10
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I don't think that is true

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Specifically, these transmissions are to be serviced according to ZF TE-ML 11. In TE-ML 11 are two categories of fluid, 11A and 11B. The 11B is a more robust, longer life fluid with similar properties to 11A
http://www.meurosport.com/ZF_Transmission_Fluid.php
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      02-01-2010, 05:27 PM   #11
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so pentosin is good for our 6AT tranny it seems what about RL D4? i found these links...

http://www.ecstuning.com/BMW-E92-335...sion/ES251177/
http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=51&pcid=9

i also ask RL directly since i don't see D4 on ZF's list whether it is suitable for our tranny. will see how that goes...
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      02-01-2010, 06:13 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raceyBMW View Post
After looking a bit closer at the ZF classes of 11A/11B, I see that ZF Lifeguardfluid5 is listed under 11B class. So one can (maybe) infer that any class 11B with work up to and including the five speeds.*

However, I don't see the same for Lifeguardfluid6 (i.e. Shell 1375.4) and based on other articles, this fluid was created specifically for the 6AT.

I really don't see, or haven't seen so far, anything from ZF or BMW saying to put Dexron III * spec in these transmissions. (Even for the E9X that have the GM AT, the spec is Dexron VI not III.)

* GM published data states that Dexron VI is downwards compatible. But the lower number Dexrons are NOT upwards compatible. Which is why I firmly believe that the ZF class 11B - which appears to be mostly the Dexron III specs - should not be used in our 6AT.

[Edit} This has been an informative thread. Thanks everyone for the various links.
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      02-01-2010, 06:36 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hun77777 View Post
so pentosin is good for our 6AT tranny it seems what about RL D4? i found these links...

http://www.ecstuning.com/BMW-E92-335...sion/ES251177/
http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=51&pcid=9

i also ask RL directly since i don't see D4 on ZF's list whether it is suitable for our tranny. will see how that goes...
Be aware that the Redline is red in color. The fluid in our ZF transmissions is a Golden color. As I believe is the Pentosin ATF-1, or at least a light brown.

And both ZF and BMW state not to mixed fluids, which means if you want to put in anything that is not Shell 1375.4, you should totally drain/replenish the fluid.

But if warranty issues aren't a concern, then feel free to do whatever you want.

BTW, I don't have any issues with RedLine, Indeed, I use RL Syn ATF in a Dexron IID application - as RL is one of the few companies that still make fluid to that spec. I just don't believe that a Dexron III spec fluid should go in our 6ATs.
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      02-01-2010, 06:49 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bcube View Post
After looking a bit closer at the ZF classes of 11A/11B, I see that ZF Lifeguardfluid5 is listed under 11B class. So one can (maybe) infer that any class 11B with work up to and including the five speeds.*

However, I don't see the same for Lifeguardfluid6 (i.e. Shell 1375.4) and based on other articles, this fluid was created specifically for the 6AT.

I really don't see, or haven't seen so far, anything from ZF or BMW saying to put Dexron III * spec in these transmissions. (Even for the E9X that have the GM AT, the spec is Dexron VI not III.)

* GM published data states that Dexron VI is downwards compatible. But the lower number Dexrons are NOT upwards compatible. Which is why I firmly believe that the ZF class 11B - which appears to be mostly the Dexron III specs - should not be used in our 6AT.

[Edit} This has been an informative thread. Thanks everyone for the various links.
Hmm, I see now what you are talking about. Might warrant an email to ZF to get to the bottom of it. I still wonder why though the Pentosin ATF-1 comes up on a search of the BMW part no. for the trans. fluid if it isn't for the 6AT.

BTW, anyone have any luck sourcing Lifeguard Fluid 6 from anywhere besides the dealer? I haven't had much luck, they either don't carry it, or they only sell in mass quantities.
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      02-01-2010, 06:57 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raceyBMW View Post
Hmm, I see now what you are talking about. Might warrant an email to ZF to get to the bottom of it. I still wonder why though the Pentosin ATF-1 comes up on a search of the BMW part no. for the trans. fluid if it isn't for the 6AT.

BTW, anyone have any luck sourcing Lifeguard Fluid 6 from anywhere besides the dealer? I haven't had much luck, they either don't carry it, or they only sell in mass quantities.
The Jag-U-are folks give this link:
http://www.zftranspart.com/index.php...&parent=8&pg=1
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      02-01-2010, 07:17 PM   #16
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So not much difference in cost then from what the dealer charges (maybe ~$6/liter).

I am still having a hard time finding out if the LifeguardFluid6 is TE-ML 11A or 11B...the ZF literature doesn't seem to say.

If it is 11A, then there is also this stuff from Pentosin
http://www.pentosin.com/flexxtrader/...yp%202D_GB.pdf
BTW, this stuff is red, not yellow like the ZF stuff (however Pentosin ATF-1 is)

I'm gonna email ZF so hopefully this can get sorted out once and for all...we will see how responsive they are.
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      02-01-2010, 07:51 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raceyBMW View Post
So not much difference in cost then from what the dealer charges (maybe ~$6/liter).

I am still having a hard time finding out if the LifeguardFluid6 is TE-ML 11A or 11B...the ZF literature doesn't seem to say.

If it is 11A, then there is also this stuff from Pentosin
http://www.pentosin.com/flexxtrader/...yp%202D_GB.pdf
BTW, this stuff is red, not yellow like the ZF stuff (however Pentosin ATF-1 is)

I'm gonna email ZF so hopefully this can get sorted out once and for all...we will see how responsive they are.
they will likely recommend to use lifeguardfluid6, it's more of loaded question to them... but we shall see...

your local dealer charges $6 per liter? really? i just checked with my local dealer they charge $21.90 so can you double check? if it really is $6 per liter that'll be a deal.

david
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      02-02-2010, 12:22 AM   #18
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I imagine you could buy any BMW fluid from Tischer BMW cheap..

I'm working on my next order from them: plugs, cabin filter..
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      02-02-2010, 12:46 AM   #19
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Quote:
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I imagine you could buy any BMW fluid from Tischer BMW cheap..

I'm working on my next order from them: plugs, cabin filter..
not all. they don't carry some fluids like transmission or differential fluids. i already tried...
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      02-02-2010, 03:48 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hun77777 View Post
they will likely recommend to use lifeguardfluid6, it's more of loaded question to them... but we shall see...

your local dealer charges $6 per liter? really? i just checked with my local dealer they charge $21.90 so can you double check? if it really is $6 per liter that'll be a deal.

david
I meant a difference of ~$6/liter between that site posted above and the dealer...not $6 total.

$21/liter is a great deal for the OEM stuff (Shell M1375.4)! Dealer told me $45/liter.

I asked the question to them in a manner that hopefully I don't get a canned answer back...except I got an auto reply saying the person is out till the 8th.
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      02-02-2010, 11:01 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bcube View Post
After looking a bit closer at the ZF classes of 11A/11B, I see that ZF Lifeguardfluid5 is listed under 11B class. So one can (maybe) infer that any class 11B with work up to and including the five speeds.*
If you read the statement at the bottom of the table--> http://www01apps.zf.com/kst464/ZF_In...011_en0700.pdf
before the A&B List, it states: "The oils released in each case are specified in the ZF Lubricants List TE-ML 11." The each case it refers to are the subheadings in the table: 3/4 speeds, and 4/5 speeds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bcube View Post
However, I don't see the same for Lifeguardfluid6 (i.e. Shell 1375.4) and based on other articles, this fluid was created specifically for the 6AT
Actually its one of many fluids that is approved for the ZF 6AT. Its just OEM fluid. ZF has given us a list of equivalent fluids, so why pay $60 per liter, and $350 labor to the stealership?
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      02-02-2010, 11:06 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raceyBMW View Post
Hmm, I see now what you are talking about. Might warrant an email to ZF to get to the bottom of it. I still wonder why though the Pentosin ATF-1 comes up on a search of the BMW part no. for the trans. fluid if it isn't for the 6AT. BTW, anyone have any luck sourcing Lifeguard Fluid 6 from anywhere besides the dealer? I haven't had much luck, they either don't carry it, or they only sell in mass quantities.
Pentosin, is the manufacturer of OEM BMW transfluid. The M3's dual clutch uses pentosin FFL-4. There's a letter from BMW regarding this. Search under my username in the M3 forums. Lifeguard is just re-labeling pentosin fluid.
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