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      02-02-2010, 11:18 AM   #23
Turkeybaster115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raceyBMW View Post
I meant a difference of ~$6/liter between that site posted above and the dealer...not $6 total. $21/liter is a great deal for the OEM stuff (Shell M1375.4)! Dealer told me $45/liter. I asked the question to them in a manner that hopefully I don't get a canned answer back...except I got an auto reply saying the person is out till the 8th.
I personally won't ever touch lifeguard6. Notice how lifeguard5 is on the list from the transmission's manufacturer dated 01/01/2010, but lifeguard6 is no where to be found. Lifeguard6's viscosity is formulated to help you get 30+ highway miles per gallon. Buyer beware. It broke down in my 2007 audi A6 Quattro in 40,000 miles. I posted pictures of it in the audi forums. It even looked, and smelt worse than when it came out of my BMW. Its crap IMHO. Its definitely not cooling down the trans, in my opinion. I would even put redline fluid ahead of it, until I can see some manufacturer flash point specs. OH and HUN777, you are the most anoying guy ever to use the internet!

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      02-02-2010, 12:16 PM   #24
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ZF has given us a list of equivalent fluids, so why pay $60 per liter, and $350 labor to the stealership?
This is the main purpose of this thread. trying to avoid stealership price yet getting fluids that meets oem specification. so where's the list that you mentioned above? are you saying all lubricant class B11 is good for our transmission? that's where i see Pentosin ATF1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115 View Post
OH and HUN777, you are the most anoying guy ever to use the internet!
when you don't know something, you ask. i didn't even specifically asking for your opinion so wth?
if you think i am annoying you, why even bother posting? just ignore it and skip it to the next post then.
i am not guru like you so i don't know what to tell you. thanks for all the information btw...


p.s. so do you have any opinion about RL D4? oh wait...
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      02-02-2010, 12:34 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115 View Post
If you read the statement at the bottom of the table--> http://www01apps.zf.com/kst464/ZF_In...011_en0700.pdf
before the A&B List, it states: "The oils released in each case are specified in the ZF Lubricants List TE-ML 11." The each case it refers to are the subheadings in the table: 3/4 speeds, and 4/5 speeds.
Thank you for restating what I've already said. We are in agreement here.

Quote:
Actually its one of many fluids that is approved for the ZF 6AT. Its just OEM fluid. ZF has given us a list of equivalent fluids, so why pay $60 per liter, and $350 labor to the stealership?
This is the list of OEM oils that ZF has given for 6AT (minus audi W-12 and Audi Q7) :

"According to spare part number of vehicle manufacturer:
ZF Lifeguardfluid6 (ZF No. S671 090 255)
=> AML Oil No. 4G4319A509/AA/S
=> Audi /VW Oil No. G 055005 A1 / A2 / A6
=> Bentley Oil No. PY112995PA
=> BMW Oil No. 8322 0142516
=> Hyundai Oil No. 040000C90SG
=> Jaguar Oil No. Jaguar Fluid 8432
=> Land Rover Oil No. TYK500050
=> Maserati Oil No. 231603"

If ZF Lifeguardfluid6 - or in reality; Shell 1375.4 - was an 11A or 11B classification then it would be listed on the relative Lubricate Class on page 4 or 5 of List of lubricants TE-ML 11
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      02-02-2010, 02:03 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Bcube View Post
"According to spare part number of vehicle manufacturer:
ZF Lifeguardfluid6 (ZF No. S671 090 255)
=> AML Oil No. 4G4319A509/AA/S
=> Audi /VW Oil No. G 055005 A1 / A2 / A6
=> Bentley Oil No. PY112995PA
=> BMW Oil No. 8322 0142516
=> Hyundai Oil No. 040000C90SG
=> Jaguar Oil No. Jaguar Fluid 8432
=> Land Rover Oil No. TYK500050
=> Maserati Oil No. 231603"
ok, well then put one of those fluids into your car. I've already changed my transfluid 10K miles ago.
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      02-02-2010, 02:05 PM   #27
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p.s. so do you have any opinion about RL D4? oh wait...
Your kidding right? To answer your question, Honda specifically stated in the owners manual, to only use this fluid in their transmission on a very temporary basis: 2003 Honda accord V6. That was a 5 speed auto handling only 240HP. You want to try this stuff in your 6 speed proceed E90?
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      02-02-2010, 03:23 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115 View Post
Pentosin, is the manufacturer of OEM BMW transfluid. The M3's dual clutch uses pentosin FFL-4. There's a letter from BMW regarding this. Search under my username in the M3 forums. Lifeguard is just re-labeling pentosin fluid.
Not according to the article Bcube posted above...Shell M1375.4 = ZF Lifeguard 6
http://www.just-auto.com/ia.aspx?id=2403

The Pentosin ATF-1 *might* be OE, but not OEM. It is strange that Lifeguard6 does not show up on the TE-ML 11 spec sheet, but it explicitly states in there that the 6HP19, which the 335 (6HP19Z actually) has, uses lifeguard6.

What all of us are trying to do is determine an equivalent oil that doesn't cost $45/liter. It appears to me that the Pentosin ATF-1 is a good equivalent, but without knowing the specifics of Lifeguard6, we can't really make that determination. I contacted ZF to see if I could get some straight answers, and will post them when/if I get them. Otherwise all we are doing is internet research and using the info that is out there.
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      02-02-2010, 05:39 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by raceyBMW View Post
Not according to the article Bcube posted above...Shell M1375.4 = ZF Lifeguard 6
http://www.just-auto.com/ia.aspx?id=2403
The Pentosin ATF-1 *might* be OE, but not OEM. It is strange that Lifeguard6 does not show up on the TE-ML 11 spec sheet, but it explicitly states in there that the 6HP19, which the 335 (6HP19Z actually) has, uses lifeguard6.
What all of us are trying to do is determine an equivalent oil that doesn't cost $45/liter. It appears to me that the Pentosin ATF-1 is a good equivalent, but without knowing the specifics of Lifeguard6, we can't really make that determination. I contacted ZF to see if I could get some straight answers, and will post them when/if I get them. Otherwise all we are doing is internet research and using the info that is out there.
I dont want to use lifeguard6. Even if it were given to me for free, I wont touch it! It is formulated only with gas milage in mind! I want cooler transmission temps, and thus longevity. I have long since suspected that they cut corners when formulating this fluid. According to ZF its good for between 60-80,000km. By 50K miles it was burnt, smelled bad, and the area below my shifter was red hot after a drive. When I changed it out the gas milage decreased slightly, but it doesn't warm up anymore below the gear box. The shifts are also a lot smoother. Judging by the quality of this shell lifeguard6 crap, even from the 6HP19Z, in my 2007 audi A6 Quattro, after only 40,000 miles--> http://audiforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=141176 (Do a search on our audi forum! Countless 6HP19Z failures with never flushed OEM fluid between 40-80K miles!!!!), there is no way these transmissions will make it past 100,000miles intact. But you will however get good gas milage, while its frying your clutches.

The fact is that the manufacturer of the transmission, has given us a list of several fluids that are perfectly fine for the transmission. You guys can debate all you want, and put in whatever fluid you want, or dont even change the OEM lifetime fluid at all, and enjoy 33mpg highway (like I used to) Time will judge us all.
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      02-02-2010, 05:42 PM   #30
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Your kidding right? To answer your question, Honda specifically stated in the owners manual, to only use this fluid in their transmission on a very temporary basis: 2003 Honda accord V6. That was a 5 speed auto handling only 240HP. You want to try this stuff in your 6 speed proceed E90?
after going through all these infos and sharing infos from members, i'm more inclined to use pentosin ATF-1 than RL D4, but according to the following link, RL ADF D4 is also equivalent to Esso LT71141, Shell LA2634 & M-1375.4, Texaco ETL7045 & ETL8072B. yes i'm well aware of the fact that this comes from RL website...

http://www.redlineoil.com/news_article.aspx?id=13

50k miles is 80k kms which i'm getting closer and closer... oh snap... better order something soon...
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      02-05-2010, 11:41 AM   #31
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So I got a reply back from ZF

Quote:
Dear Mr. xxxxx,

The ZF 6HP19 transmission in your BMW 335i is lifetime fluid filled with ZF Lifeguardfluid6. If you drive your car under normal conditions (see enclosed ZF list of lubricants TE-ML 11 page 3 maintenance recommendations) no oil change over complete lifetime of the transmission is necessary. In case of repair or top up fill of the transmission only the ZF Lifeguardfluid6 (ZF No. S671 090 255 or BMW Oil No. 8322 0142516) has to be used. Other fluids are not approved.

ATFs according to ZF lubricant class 11A and 11B are approved for use in ZF 3HP22 - 4HP24A transmissions (11B additional in ZF 5HP18 without oil pan fill aperture label). These transmissions are not lifetime fluid filled. The fluid has to be changed every 30 - 40 Tkm.


Mit freundlichen Grüßen/Kind regards
Martin Vogel
Schmierstoffe und Polymere (TW-L)
Lubricants and Polymers (TW-L)

ZF Friedrichshafen AG
88038 Friedrichshafen, Deutschland/Germany
Telefon/Phone +49 7541 77-7181, Telefax/Fax +49 7541 77-907181
martin.vogel@zf.com

Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats/Chairman of the Supervisory Board: Giorgio Behr
Vorstand/Board of Management: Hans-Georg Härter (Vorsitzender/CEO), Willi Berchtold, Michael Paul, Thomas Sigi
Sitz/Headquarters: Friedrichshafen
Handelsregistereintrag Amtsgericht Ulm HRB 630206/Trade register of the municipal court of Ulm HRB 630206
So there you have it. Basically, nothing else out there "officially" is a substitute for Lifeguardfluid6. However, I imagine if you do shorten your fill intervals to 50k miles, that Pentosin ATF-1 or the others mentioned will be fine.

He kinda skirted my Shell M-1375.4 question and about fluids that say they are substitutes for that fluid. I tried to ask it again, in a different way...will post it up if i get a reply.
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      02-05-2010, 11:59 AM   #32
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thanks for sharing...
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      02-05-2010, 12:26 PM   #33
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raceyBMW, thanks for going through the effort to e-mail ZF.
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      02-06-2010, 12:19 AM   #34
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So I got a reply back from ZF
So there you have it. Basically, nothing else out there "officially" is a substitute for Lifeguardfluid6. However, I imagine if you do shorten your fill intervals to 50k miles, that Pentosin ATF-1 or the others mentioned will be fine. kinda skirted my Shell M-1375.4 question and about fluids that say they are substitutes for that fluid. I tried to ask it again, in a different way...will post it up if i get a reply.

F**K ZF! are you kidding me? do you think that lifeguard6 can last a lifetime of the car? Have you seen what the fluid looks like at only 40K miles of city driving, in a 6HP pushing only 255HP? Again, you guys can put in whatever you want. Go buy the lifecrap6 cough syrup, at the buttrape price if you want. I really don't care. You should do a search on that ZF distributor website, and see just how many ZF tranny rebuilding sites are in your state. Mine has 3. So of course you should leave the fluid in there forever, or pay the dealer 60 bucks per liter. What else did you expect from the customer service rep? At least now its official. Me and all the Jaguar guys are stupid.
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      02-06-2010, 03:14 AM   #35
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bmw and zf's definition of lifetime is 100k under normal driving condirion and 50k to 75k miles if you drive hard...

i'm not eliminating Pentosin or Redline for our tranny as an options in the future since i got response from both claiming that their fluids are totally fine on our transmission (just like ZF, of course they will say yes), i'd rather stay with oem drain and fill at this moment until more people try some other fluids and report it back. hopefully this drain and fill will last no problem until 80~100k then i'll come back to this and see what goes on.

my dealer quoted me $36 per liter and told me they will need 5.5 for drain and fill without doing TQ convertor. i got a quote from the dealer saying they will perform the service fill for around $300 (including tax) which is not a bad deal for me.

i figured if i order pentosin from the website, it will at least be $100 or so then still need to pay for couple hours of labour at any independent BMW shop who are capable of doing which at the end the difference will be around $100...

turkeybaster115, please do report us back for your next drain and fill for your transmission. i'd curious to hear the comparison between OEM transmission fluids you had vs Pentosin you have now...
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      02-06-2010, 04:02 AM   #36
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I have no idea what the standards mean. I am currently considering Motul, since their engine & gear oil is so good (using the Motul 300V 75W90 in our MT cars). Any thoughts?

Motul Dexron III

Technosynthese lubricant.

GM Dexron III / Ford Mercon / Allison C-4 / Caterpillar To-2 Voith / ZF.
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      02-06-2010, 10:26 AM   #37
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Can anyone advise if the below part numbers are similar products;

BMW Part no: 83 22 0 142 516
BMW Part no: 83 22 0 144 137

Every1 is talking about oem oil BMW Part no: 83 22 0 142 516 but none are mentioned on BMW Part no: 83 22 0 144 137
.

I'm concerned becos the latter atf oil was used to during draining and top-up of my trans. Have goggled the latter oil but not much info was found except this

http://bmwfans.info/accessories/prod...s/gearbox_oil/

Any kind soul can verify that they are identical and can be used on my GA6HP19Z tranny? Oh ya and my ride is a 2006 E90

Many thks..
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      02-06-2010, 11:07 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bernie66 View Post
Can anyone advise if the below part numbers are similar products;

BMW Part no: 83 22 0 142 516
BMW Part no: 83 22 0 144 137

Every1 is talking about oem oil BMW Part no: 83 22 0 142 516 but none are mentioned on BMW Part no: 83 22 0 144 137
.

I'm concerned becos the latter atf oil was used to during draining and top-up of my trans. Have goggled the latter oil but not much info was found except this

http://bmwfans.info/accessories/prod...s/gearbox_oil/

Any kind soul can verify that they are identical and can be used on my GA6HP19Z tranny? Oh ya and my ride is a 2006 E90

Many thks..
yes they are the same oil. one is 20 liter and the latter one is 1 liter so you are fine...
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      02-06-2010, 12:24 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115 View Post
F**K ZF! are you kidding me? do you think that lifeguard6 can last a lifetime of the car? Have you seen what the fluid looks like at only 40K miles of city driving, in a 6HP pushing only 255HP? Again, you guys can put in whatever you want. Go buy the lifecrap6 cough syrup, at the buttrape price if you want. I really don't care. You should do a search on that ZF distributor website, and see just how many ZF tranny rebuilding sites are in your state. Mine has 3. So of course you should leave the fluid in there forever, or pay the dealer 60 bucks per liter. What else did you expect from the customer service rep? At least now its official. Me and all the Jaguar guys are stupid.
LOL, I don't believe in any lifetime fluid, just doing my due diligence. I still will probably replace with Pentosin ATF-1 @ 50k...but its gonna be a while for me to get there since I only put 8-10k on the car a year (at 27k now). I figured the guy would give a canned answer like that, I really was trying to find out how the Shell M-1375.4 stuff compares (I figure it to be the same), but they don't seem to want to answer that. Basically if they say its the same, then all the fluids that say they are similar should work.
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      02-06-2010, 12:31 PM   #40
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yes they are the same oil. one is 20 liter and the latter one is 1 liter so you are fine...
Thk goodness...
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      02-08-2010, 12:16 PM   #41
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I used castrol multi-import oil with a bottle of lucas tranny oil. It has never been smoother!
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      02-08-2010, 12:34 PM   #42
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One more final letter from ZF:

Quote:
Dear Mr. xxxxxx,

The ZF Lifeguardfluid6 is developed together with Shell and blended by Shell Hamburg. The Shell internal code name for this fluid is M-1375.4. This specialy developed fluid formulation will only be manufactured by ZF Service as ZF Lifguardfluid6 or via oil no. of the car manufacturers mentioned in the enclosed ZF list of lubricants TE-ML 11. No other oil manufacturer can sell this special fluid formulation therefor no legitimate substitute can be on the market.


Mit freundlichen Grüßen/Kind regards
Martin Vogel
Schmierstoffe und Polymere (TW-L)
Lubricants and Polymers (TW-L)

ZF Friedrichshafen AG
88038 Friedrichshafen, Deutschland/Germany
Telefon/Phone +49 7541 77-7181, Telefax/Fax +49 7541 77-907181
martin.vogel@zf.com

Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats/Chairman of the Supervisory Board: Giorgio Behr
Vorstand/Board of Management: Hans-Georg Härter (Vorsitzender/CEO), Willi Berchtold, Michael Paul, Thomas Sigi
Sitz/Headquarters: Friedrichshafen
Handelsregistereintrag Amtsgericht Ulm HRB 630206/Trade register of the municipal court of Ulm HRB 630206
I just wish they would post the lubricant specifications so that we could compare to the other supposed substitutions out there and make our own decisions if its comparable or not. I have found these numbers though for the shell lubricant...not sure if they are accurate or not though since they don't post where they got them from.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...ue#Post1349817

Last edited by raceyBMW; 02-08-2010 at 12:39 PM.
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      02-08-2010, 03:35 PM   #43
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raceyBMW,

You may already have this data for specs of Pentosin ATF-1:
http://images.imcparts.net/shared/do...ssolt71141.pdf

But that was back in 2003 when it was also known as ESSO LT 71 141. Pentosin, as you know, claims it can sub Shell 1375.4, but I haven't found a newer spec.

I thought the following might be interesting. Some further internet searching showed a comment made to a Jag inquirer with regard to his ZF 6AT. The discussion centered around whether Ford Mercon V could be used in the ZF. This is supposedly the reply from the ZF rep. (of course, this is all unsubstantiated):

Quote:
Venelin,
I can not advise the use of the Ford fluid in your Jag. I am not clear as to the outcome of its use. ZF currently has several fluids used for various 6HPapplications. A good example is Audi who recommends fluids by vehicle model not transmission model. This may be due to the demands of the specific vehicle such as smooth shifting VS performance orientated driving requiring faster shifts and better heat control. The friction coefficient of the fluid is programmed into the transmission controller. Changing fluid type will affect the calculation and ultimately drivability. This in a worst case scenario could lead to transmission failure. The correct ZF or Jag fluid is a small price to pay in comparison.
I Bolded the statement that I find relevant to other discussions that I've read where the ZF tranny adapts the way it shifts over time due to mileage, usage, and calculated breakdown of its oil.
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      02-08-2010, 06:09 PM   #44
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just outta curiosity, when i did my tranny fluids service done at the dealership, the part number that i got is 83-22-0-406-929, not 83-22-0-142-516, which is nowhere to be found on any website or online.
have you guys heard of such part numbers anywhere?

i called part dept, they said it is transmission oil for bmw but they can't verify for what model/tranny nor if it is shell M1375.4, which made me feel like , after spending $400+
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Last edited by hun77777; 02-08-2010 at 08:55 PM.
hun77777 is offline   United_States
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