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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Technical Forums > Mechanical Maintenance: Break-in / Oil & Fluids / Servicing / Warranty > Lifeguard6 = Mercon SP?



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      03-18-2010, 04:31 PM   #1
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Guys I did a lot of research as to what in the world our mystery factory fill ATF could be, and I think I finally found it. After a lot of searching, and phone calls to shell USA I have deduced the following:

According to the australian petrolium institute: http://www.lubeandtune.com.au/html/lubekey.asp their ASP15 classification includes the following fluids:
-Ford Specification No. M2C 919D
-Mercon SP Fluid Part No. XT-6QSP
-Shell ATF M-1375.4
-ZF 6-speed Automatic Transmission Fluid, (Shell M-1375.4)

Mercon SP Fluid is a newer transmission fluid made by shell for Ford dealers. Its easy to find online, and it retails for around $4:00+/quart. Things get really interesting when you look at the specs of lifeguard 6 found in the MSDS:
http://www.tsgparts.net/images/pdf/Lifeguardfluid6.pdf and compare them to the specs of Mercon SP:
http://www.fcsdchemicalsandlubricant...ERCON%20SP.pdf and http://www.fcsdchemicalsandlubricant...us175325us.pdf

VERY similar specs, and the same color fluid.

Last edited by Turkeybaster115; 03-23-2010 at 01:46 PM.
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      03-18-2010, 04:49 PM   #2
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Interesting find. I don't know Ford products very well so I'm wondering which cars use the ZF 6HP.
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      03-18-2010, 08:52 PM   #3
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You can get the lifeguard6/Shell M-1375.4 fluid for $4.68/quart here: http://www.ryderfleetproducts.com/cg...uct_detail.jsp

Before you get this fluid consider the following; which are my opinions, drawn from online research. Shell was tapped by ZF/Ford, to make this fluid for maximum fuel efficiency. it has very similar specs to amsoil's fuel efficiency transmission fluid:

http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/atl.aspx (Scroll to the bottom of the page).

If you are in/out of warranty, want to change your ATF fluid, with oem, for considerably less than what the dealer will charge, then get the mecron SP stuff. Now for those who have higher torque vehicles with the 6hp19/26 transmissions, you might want to opt for a fluid that will trade you gas mileage for decreased fluid temps. This is especially true if you plan on occasional racing, or power increasing modifications. If you look at amsoil, and redline, you find that they each offer a line of racing/high temp fluid products. These products offer better thermal protection for racing or high torque vehicles. Looking closely, there're specs differ from the fuel efficient lines. Most notebly: KV @ 40C 7.5-10cst; KV @ 100C 34-53cst VI: 177+, Flash point 225 F+. Clearly the higher the fluid's KV/VI/Flash point, the more shear stable it is under abnormal stress.

The above listed racing fluids are on the high end. You can have slightly more thermal protection than stock with several other fluids(KV 40C: 7-8, KV 100C 34-38, VI 165+, Flash Point 212 C+:

-Castrol multi-vehicle atf TE ML 11A
-Pentosin ATF 1 TE ML 11B
-castrol transmax TE ML 11B, 14C!

None TE ML optoins include:
-amsoil universal atf
-valvoline max life
-royal purple max gear
-etc.

Last edited by Turkeybaster115; 03-25-2010 at 11:03 AM.
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      03-19-2010, 07:17 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115 View Post
You can get the lifeguard6/Shell M-1375.4 fluid for $4.68/quart here: http://www.ryderfleetproducts.com/cg...uct_detail.jsp

Before you get this fluid consider the following; which are my opinions, drawn from online research. Shell was tapped by ZF/Ford, to make this fluid for maximum fuel efficiency. it has very similar specs to amsoil's fuel efficiency transmission fluid:

http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/atl.aspx (Scroll to the bottom of the page).

If you are in/out of warranty, want to change your ATF fluid, with oem, for considerably less than what the dealer will charge, then get the mecron SP stuff. Now for those who have higher torque vehicles with the 6hp19/26 transmissions, you might want to opt for a fluid that will trade you gas mileage for decreased fluid temps. This is especially true if you plan on occasional racing, or power increasing modifications. If you look at amsoil, and redline, you find that they each offer a line of racing/high temp fluid products. These products offer better thermal protection for racing or high torque vehicles. Looking closely, there're specs differ from the fuel efficient lines. Most notebly: KV @ 40C 7.5-10cst; KV @ 100C 34-53cst VI: 177+, Flash point 225 F+. Clearly the higher the fluid's KV/VI/Flash point, the more sheer stable it is under abnormal stress.

The above listed racing fluids are on the high end. You can have slightly more thermal protection than stock with several other fluids(KV 40C: 7-8, KV 100C 34-38, VI 165+, Flash Point 212 C+:

-Castrol multi-vehicle atf TE ML 11A
-Pentosin ATF 1 TE ML 11B
-castrol transmax TE ML 11B, 14C!

None TE ML optoins include:
-amsoil universal atf
-valvoline max life
-royal purple max gear
-etc.
I wonder why Amsoil just doesn't list their ATF as an equilivant to Shell M-1375.4. I would go onto say that maybe LG6 is a substitute for MerconSP, kinda like how Castrol's Import Multi-vehicle ATF is a substitute for M-1375.4.

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      03-19-2010, 08:54 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Socom View Post
I wonder why Amsoil just doesn't list their ATF as an equilivant to Shell M-1375.4. I would go onto say that maybe LG6 is a substitute for MerconSP, kinda like how Castrol's Import Multi-vehicle ATF is a substitute for M-1375.4.
Its not a substitute, it is LG6! kinda how pentosin atf1 is LG5. Mercon SP is manufactured in houston texas by shell for Ford, while LG6 is manufactured in europe for ZF. The houston texas facility started making the fluid in 2007. Castrol Multi vehicle atf is a lower quality substitute, according to TE ML 11A but not an equivalent. In order to meet M-1375.4, you have to have a KV 40C of 28, and a KV 100C of 5.5-6.5, and a vapour pressure of <0.5 @ 20C PA. oh and a nice brown color with a strong mineral oil odor helps too! I'm currently trying to figure out what LG8 is

Last edited by Turkeybaster115; 03-19-2010 at 10:21 AM.
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      03-19-2010, 09:58 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115 View Post
Its not a substitute, it is LG6! kinda how pentosin atf1 is LG5. Mercon SP is manufactured in houston texas by shell for Ford, while LG6 is manufactured in europe for ZF. The houston texas facility started making the fluid in 2007. Castrol Multi vehicle atf is a lower quality substitute, according to TE ML 11A but not an equivalent. In order to meet M-1375.4, you have to have a KV 40C of 28, and a KV 100C of 5.5-6.5, and a vapour pressure of <0.5 @ 20C PA. oh and I nice brown color with a strong mineral oil odor helps too! I'm currently trying to figure out what LG8 is
I emailed Amsoil about their ATF and why it doesn't say Shell M-1375.4 or Lifeguard 6 but Mercon SP.
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      03-19-2010, 10:20 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Socom View Post
I emailed Amsoil about their ATF and why it doesn't say Shell M-1375.4 or Lifeguard 6 but Mercon SP.
Amsoil is a good company, making fine oils. I hear there all pao based. If it Meets Mercon SP, they might not now about the relation to M-1375.4/LG6
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      03-20-2010, 05:25 PM   #8
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I just wanted to explain to you guys my obsession with automatic transmission fluids. I used to own an '03 acura TL type S, and those cars suffered from a high failure rate. Due to fatalities from these failures, The NHTSA launched an investigation. The acura online community was able to obtain the documentation from the investigation, and we learned a lot about transmissions from it. Multiple problems plagued these transmissions, however, the 3rd gear clutch pack burning out, and causing the tranny to suddenly drop through the gears was the most common problem. Here is a link to the long investigation: http://cl.acurazine.com/forums/showt...y+wrong+tranny when performing up shifts and down shifts, the ATF fluid is faced with bringing down clutch pack temps of up to 300C+! (p.642). So that is why automatic transmission fluid quality is very important. Be more conservative (30-40K miles) with drain intervals, and upgrade to the moderate or racing alternative fluids, that I listed, if you plan on racing! You can read more about automatic transmission fluids here: http://www.castrol.com/liveassets/bp...uids_B1191.pdf
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      03-20-2010, 08:07 PM   #9
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Thanks for the writeup. I'm still not convinced this is equivalent to M1375.4 as the price difference is huge. I have a suspicion that the base oils and additives may be different (maybe the Ford is not synthetic (to keep costs down) but LG6 is?)
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      03-20-2010, 10:46 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by jimk View Post
Thanks for the writeup. I'm still not convinced this is equivalent to M1375.4 as the price difference is huge. I have a suspicion that the base oils and additives may be different (maybe the Ford is not synthetic (to keep costs down) but LG6 is?)
The chemical composition of the LG6 is on page 2 of the MSDS: Mineral oil+ additives. The Mercon SP is the same thing too: "petroleum distilates" page 1 "Base oil: highly refined" Page 11. The price difference could be because Mercon is made here in the US, and not imported. Also, ford drivers, don't have the same disposable income as BMW drivers.
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      03-22-2010, 07:56 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115 View Post
The chemical composition of the LG6 is on page 2 of the MSDS: Mineral oil+ additives. The Mercon SP is the same thing too: "petroleum distilates" page 1 "Base oil: highly refined" Page 11. The price difference could be because Mercon is made here in the US, and not imported. Also, ford drivers, don't have the same disposable income as BMW drivers.
I got a reply from Amsoil and their statement was that their ATF does meet Shell M-1375.4 / LG6 but "at the low end" which is where Mercon SP sits.
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      03-22-2010, 08:41 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Socom View Post
I got a reply from Amsoil and their statement was that their ATF does meet Shell M-1375.4 / LG6 but "at the low end" which is where Mercon SP sits.
I agree that Amsoil's specs are close but not quite there, but how is Mercon SP "on the low end"?
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      03-22-2010, 08:45 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115 View Post
I agree that Amsoil's specs are close but not quite there, but how is Mercon SP "on the low end"?
I don't know, but that's a direct quote. There must be something that LG6 has which is missing from Mercon SP. Maybe it's all part of the Shell 1375.4 family, but that's where the similarities end.
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      03-22-2010, 09:42 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Socom View Post
I don't know, but that's a direct quote. There must be something that LG6 has which is missing from Mercon SP. Maybe it's all part of the Shell 1375.4 family, but that's where the similarities end.
Well to confirm, I just called the Ford Motor company in Dearborn Michigan, and they say Mercon SP is the same as Shell M-1375.4.
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      03-22-2010, 09:49 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115 View Post
Well to confirm, I just called the Ford Motor company in Dearborn Michigan, and they say Mercon SP is the same as Shell M-1375.4.
Which may be the case. Maybe Shell M-1375.4 is the base, Mercon SP isn't far off from that base,and LG6 family has and additional additive which makes it a "higher grade" of M-1375.4. Something that may confirm such is whether or not the barrels of OEM and LG6 fluid state "Made in Germany" or "USA". Maybe a call into Shell is required.
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      03-22-2010, 09:59 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Socom View Post
Which may be the case. Maybe Shell M-1375.4 is the base, Mercon SP isn't far off from that base,and LG6 family has and additional additive which makes it a "higher grade" of M-1375.4. Something that may confirm such is whether or not the barrels of OEM and LG6 fluid state "Made in Germany" or "USA". Maybe a call into Shell is required.
So who's more credible? Amsoil, VS Ford, the australian petroleum institiute, and shell Houston? The similarities between LG6, and Mercon SP for me looking at the MSDS are:

-Both Made By shell
-Both Brown
-Both have mineral oil odor
-Both have a KV 40 of 28 mm2/s or cst
-Both have a Vapour pressure <0.5@20C Pa
-Materials to avoid for both: oxidizing agents
-Both decompose and give off the same by-products: CO, CO2, other hydrocarbons
-Both use mineral base oil+ additives

Dissimilarities
-One’s measured in liters, the other one in quarts
-One has a ZF label, the other one has a Motorcraft Mercon SP Label
-One made by shell USA, the other one Shell Europe
-One costs $4.68 per quart, the other costs $60/Liter
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      03-22-2010, 10:01 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Socom View Post
Which may be the case. Maybe Shell M-1375.4 is the base, Mercon SP isn't far off from that base,and LG6 family has and additional additive which makes it a "higher grade" of M-1375.4. Something that may confirm such is whether or not the barrels of OEM and LG6 fluid state "Made in Germany" or "USA". Maybe a call into Shell is required.
You can call whomever you want. I just think you are trying very hard to poke holes in this because of the price difference.

Shell M-1375.4 is a specification (a set of ranges if you will), in my opinion.

Last edited by Turkeybaster115; 03-22-2010 at 10:18 AM.
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      03-22-2010, 11:31 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115 View Post
You can call whomever you want. I just think you are trying very hard to poke holes in this because of the price difference.

Shell M-1375.4 is a specification (a set of ranges if you will), in my opinion.
I'm not trying to poke holes. If they were the exact same why would Amsoil only list Mercon SP and not just Shell M-1375.4 or LG6? Amsoil is the one which stated "low end" not I. ATF like motor oil is more than just a base. Afterall wouldn't you think Amsoil would like to sell a ton of ATF for the 2006+ BMW's?

Edit: I just got off the phone with Shell USA. The only application for this fluid in the US is for the ZF gearbox, and not Ford or Mercon SP. The rep also stated per the database that, in the US, M-1375.4 is no longer manufactured and has been replaced.

Interesting post on ATF:
http://www.cartechbooks.com/vstore/s...=3578&CATID=21 (lends credence to my suspicion that there are different grades or "versions" of a certain brand of ATF)

Look here: http://www.lubesonline.com.au/lubeca...cs&topic_id=12 This is the same list you found from AU however LG6 and Shell 1375.4 are listed under their own category seperate from Mercon SP/FORD.

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      03-22-2010, 02:00 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Socom View Post
I'm not trying to poke holes. If they were the exact same why would Amsoil only list Mercon SP and not just Shell M-1375.4 or LG6? Amsoil is the one which stated "low end" not I. ATF like motor oil is more than just a base. Afterall wouldn't you think Amsoil would like to sell a ton of ATF for the 2006+ BMW's?.
Amsoil, simply was not aware that their fluid is close enough to the shell M-1375.4. So, it looks like they contacted Ford about Mercon SP when they noticed the similarities, but not shell. I don't care about the "low end" comment. These people you talk to over the phone, are typically sales reps, and have questionable expertise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Socom View Post
Edit: I just got off the phone with Shell USA. The only application for this fluid in the US is for the ZF gearbox, and not Ford or Mercon SP. The rep also stated per the database that, in the US, M-1375.4 is no longer manufactured and has been replaced.
Obviously very different from what I was told. You probably talked to the general shell line. I called up their manufacturing facility in Houston, Texas, and till this day, they are manufactring Mercon SP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Socom View Post
nteresting post on ATF:
http://www.cartechbooks.com/vstore/s...=3578&CATID=21 (lends credence to my suspicion that there are different grades or "versions" of a certain brand of ATF).
So in the same manner, what is the difference between Lifeguard5, and pentosin ATF1? Here are the Two MSDS's for you to compare:

http://www.tsgparts.net/images/pdf/Lifeguardfluid5.pdf

http://images.imcparts.net/shared/do...ssolt71141.pdf

If they're re-babeling this, why is it hard to believe, that what they're re-labeling as LG6 isn't being sold to other markets? I'm not even going to ask what the price difference between LG5 and pentosin ATF1 is. Most E46 owners, didn't even look like they cared either, they saved their money further, and bravely used Redline D4 ATF! Since the dealer wanted them to give an arm away to ZF for re-labeled fluid, or never change their fluid at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Socom View Post
Look here: http://www.lubesonline.com.au/lubeca...cs&topic_id=12 This is the same list you found from AU however LG6 and Shell 1375.4 are listed under their own category seperate from Mercon SP/FORD.
Looks like that quick lube site, copied the info off the original site, in its entirity. Both Fluids are still listed under the institute's ASP15, so whats your point?

ASP15 Automatic Transmission Fluid
Ford Specification No. M2C 919D
Mercon SP Fluid Part No. XT-6QSP
Shell ATF M-1375.4
ZF 6-speed Automatic Transmission Fluid, Shell M-1375.4


People are trying to spread the word, to avoid overpaying for the same thing.

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      03-22-2010, 02:39 PM   #20
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My error. I didn't notice the part # for the Mercon SP continued to the line below. Missread it as a seperate line.

I spoke with business services/products department/lubricants at Shell.

As for my site regardings labeling of off market ATF your comment concerning Pentosin ATF1 is a perfect example. Bottle says it's applicable for 6HP but Pentosin PDS sheet states no.

I'm about spent with this and I've seen you've been questioning this all over the internet since 2009.

#1 What I know is that M-1375.4 is a base lubricant and brand specific additive packages are added.

#2 I also know that sans one guy (Pentosin Rep) there is a handful of people (Even this guy who emailed me his opinion @ http://www.meurosport.com/ZF_Transmission_Fluid.php) who recommend against using any other ATF other than LG6 or OEM for the ZF 6HP.

#3 Multi-spec ATF's can only meet the most BASIC of specifications of what they say on the bottle/PDS.

#4 MSDS does not tell you everything about the fluid. It tells you about the basic attributes but that's it.

#5 You're unlikely to experience any problems in the short run (within 10-20k miles) using a fluid which is close to OEM if you're running shorter change intervals. (Ex, You use ATF1 since it says 6HP on the bottle, yet you've developed decreased MPG's, so obviously the fluid isn't the same a LG6. Note: LG6 isn't bad, but it's the change intervals which may be bad regardless of fluid used)

#6 So if Amsoil sales bunnies are "not that smart" yet plenty of E46 BMW owners were sold Amsoil ATF for their A/Ts', whose the dumb one???

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      03-22-2010, 03:24 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Socom View Post
My error. I didn't notice the part # for the Mercon SP continued to the line below. Missread it as a seperate line.
Not surprising, your on a mission to see people over pay by $60:00-$4.68, for mineral oil based cough syrup.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Socom View Post
I spoke with business services/products department/lubricants at Shell.
I spoke to shell houston texas, where they make it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Socom View Post
As for my site regardings labeling of off market ATF your comment concerning Pentosin ATF1 is a perfect example. Bottle says it's applicable for 6HP but Pentosin PDS sheet states no.
ZF TE ML 11B puts pentosin, in the same catgory as Castrol transmax z, which is tested by ZF to be TE ML 14C*, *which is suitable to be used in bus transmissions for 2 years, or 1,000+ hours. But then again, you'd know that, right? since its pao based. You already read my link in the previous post, and seen the results of pao based vs mineral oil, which is why it said on here that castrol created the transmax line up in the 90's using pao base stock for longevity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Socom View Post
I'm about spent with this and I've seen you've been questioning this all over the internet since 2009.
I understand most american BMW buyers are rich, and IMHO ignorant, which is why the dealerships are all well trained to teach them to undermaintain their cars, since, they wouldn't mind paying for new engines, transmissions etc. Nice re-manufacturing side-buisness, off the rich there. Australians, like myself, don't over pay for products.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Socom View Post
#1 What I know is that M-1375.4 is a base lubricant and brand specific additive packages are added.
Proof? Truth: Mineral oil is 80% of Lifeguard 6. It doesn't even qualify as TE ML 11A

Quote:
Originally Posted by Socom View Post
#2 I also know that sans one guy (Pentosin Rep) there is a handful of people (Even this guy who emailed me his opinion @ http://www.meurosport.com/ZF_Transmission_Fluid.php) who recommend against using any other ATF other than LG6 or OEM for the ZF 6HP.
See my previous post, you can e-mail anyone you want to feel better about yourself. I'm so proud of my australian brothers! They don't have time, for crap, and are tougher, stronger minded people.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Socom View Post
#3 Multi-spec ATF's can only meet the most BASIC of specifications of what they say on the bottle/PDS.
The only multi spec ATF I mentioned was castrol's. Its just fine in our transmission. I love its KV 100C of 8! Not bad for mineral oil based stuff! Won't hurt our trans, and its bound to have better thermal stability that LG6

Quote:
Originally Posted by Socom View Post
#4 MSDS does not tell you everything about the fluid. It tells you about the basic attributes but that's it.
sure it doesn't. I have to look at the spec sheet right? Oh wait, The specs are on the MSDS. Not bad for useless government required documentation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Socom View Post
#5 You're unlikely to experience any problems in the short run (within 10-20k miles) using a fluid which is close to OEM if you're running shorter change intervals. (Ex, You use ATF1 since it says 6HP on the bottle, yet you've developed decreased MPG's, so obviously the fluid isn't the same a LG6. Note: LG6 isn't bad, but it's the change intervals which may be bad regardless of fluid used)
My gas mileage went down, very slightly with ATF1 (had more to do with winter temperatures, it turns out, than I previously realized), yes, and even castrol notes this, however, the trade off is decreased trans temps. Remember the NTHSA investigation? Looks like from the investigation, clutch pack temperatures jump as much as 70C every third time in a row, you change gears at WOT in an automatic. In no time, at the track or racing your buddy, your ATF has to bring down Metal surface temperatures of 300C+!!!! Thats 700F+

Quote:
Originally Posted by Socom View Post
#6 So if Amsoil sales bunnies are "not that smart" yet plenty of E46 BMW owners were sold Amsoil ATF for their A/Ts', whose the dumb one???
E46 M3 owners buy hype! After all they all use mineral oil based castrol 10W 60 TWS, and swear buy it. Even when they are shown proof of how castrol has been droping the PPM of ZDDP in that fluid over the last decade, they are still on the bus! I prefere non-M E46 owners. They have less disposable incomes, and don't have time for marked up dealership tap water. They are strong. Just like my australian brothers. Socom, You wouldn't last a day, in the outback!

Last edited by Turkeybaster115; 03-22-2010 at 03:45 PM.
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      03-22-2010, 03:47 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115 View Post
Not surprising, your on a mission to see people over pay by $60:00-$4.68, for mineral oil based cough syrup.



I spoke to shell houston texas, where they make it.



ZF TE ML 11 puts pentosin, in the same catgory as Castrol transmax z, which is tested by ZF to be TE ML 14C*, *which is suitable to be used in bus transmissions for 2 years, or 1,000+ hours. But then again, you'd know that, right? since its pao based. You already read my link in the previous post, and seen the results of pao based vs mineral oil, which is why it said on here that castrol created the transmax line up in the 90's using pao base stock for longevity.



I understand most american BMW buyers are rich, and IMHO ignorant, which is why the dealerships are all well trained to teach them to undermaintain their cars, since, they wouldn't mind paying for new engines, transmissions etc. Nice re-manufacturing side-buisness, off the rich there. Australians, like myself, don't over pay for products.



Proof? Truth: Mineral oil is 80% of Lifeguard 6. It doesn't even qualify as TE ML 11A



See my previous post, you can e-mail anyone you want to feel better about yourself. I'm so proud of my australian brothers! They don't have time, for crap, and are tougher, stronger minded people.




The only multi spec ATF I mentioned was castrol's. Its just fine in our transmission. I love its KV 100 of 8! Not bad for mineral oil based stuff! Won't hurt our trans, and its bound to have better thermal stability that LG6



sure it doesn't. I have to look at the spec sheet right? Oh wait, The specs are on the MSDS. Not bad for useless government required documentation.



My gas mileage went down, very slightly with ATF1 (had more to do with winter temperatures, it turns out, than I previously realized), yes, and even castrol notes this, however, the trade off is decreased trans temps. Remember the NTHSA investigation? Looks like from the investigation clutch packs jump as much as 70C every third time in a row, you change gears at WOT.



E46 M3 owners buy hype! After all they all use mineral oil based castrol 10W 60 TWS, and swear buy it. Even when they are shown proof of how castrol has been droping the PPM of ZDDP in that fluid over the last decade, they are still on the bus! I prefere non-M E46 owners. They have less disposable incomes, and don't have time for marked up dealership tap water. They are strong. Just like my australian brothers. Socom, You wouldn't last a day, in the outback!


And true to form you resort to personal attacks which I can't for the life of me figure out why. Being that you're in Illinois, I can only surmise that you spent too much time in the outback yourself and felt cozy U.S of A was more palatable.

In any case, I'm NOT trying to prove that you're wrong. I'm just trying to push through the hype.

Oh and something I thought about regarding your call to Shell in Houston. They may indeed make 1375.4 but maybe it's exported. What would you like me to do when one of the product experts says "It's an old fluid made for ZF, not Ford or Mercon SP, and no longer manufactured in US"??
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