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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Take 5: Vishnu 335i - Finally tested the Vishnu Stg 1 "kit"



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      11-21-2006, 08:26 PM   #89
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How about this as the "Shiv" button...

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      11-21-2006, 09:08 PM   #90
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I dont get the point of a 100 octane tuning? Unless of course you're planning on building a street racer and driving around with 93+ octane all the time? or will that sort of tuning result in a more efficient map overall?
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      11-21-2006, 09:49 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by JP@SI
FYI - the reason the XEDE piggyback unit cannot control or change the rev limiter is because these functions are hardset in the DME. There aren't any wires that you have to cut to get into the RPM system, it's "built-in". Nor can you undo any speed governors.

There's also another function called electronic throttle function (you can actually make it take off hard and pull instant, versus delayed). Sometimes manufacturers use this advantage to "make or kill power" (i.e. butt dyno). There are cars like Porsche (and BMW) that don't open at 100%... etc. There are other things here to take into account, but again, ALL DME functions.

At which point, you might be thinking, why not just do everything through a DME? Again, just FYI. Certain parameters just NEED to be done via DME.

JP@SpeedInnovation.

P.S. This post was meant for informational purposes, not towards the pros and cons of a piggyback unit or DME functions.
Hi JP,
We have successfully raised rev limiters with the Xede. This is because the Xede is capable of driving the coils and injectors directly if configured appropriately. This is what makes it a bit different from other piggy-backs.

The main reason we have opted to be as non-evasive as possible has to do with warranty and trace-ability concerns. Our goal, first and foremost, was to make the Xede completely undectable by the DME or anyone monitoring the DME. However, if we were to ever run into issues such as E-throttle bottlenecks, we will find a way to get around it. It just hasn't happened. It seems as if modern computers are getting easier, not harder, to be manipulated if the necessary measures are taken.

About half of our business is ECU reflashing (Subaru, Evo, etc,.). The other half is XEDE tuning. Either one can be a complete engine control solution. It's up to the user to determine what his constraints and needs are.

my 2c,
shiv
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      11-21-2006, 10:02 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrH
I dont get the point of a 100 octane tuning? Unless of course you're planning on building a street racer and driving around with 93+ octane all the time? or will that sort of tuning result in a more efficient map overall?
Ahhh.. i think it you've never driven a car that was mapped for 100 octane

Let me put it this way, about 75% of all our Evo XEDE customers ask for both pump gas and 100oct race gas maps when they come into the get dyno tuned. Depending on the turbo in the car, the race gas map is worth 40-100whp more than the pump gas map. On the good stuff, the cars run cooler, happier and a helluva lot stronger. They toggle over to the race gas map when they go to the drag strip, track days or even... ahem... street races. It's their secret "equalizer" when it comes to going up against the bigger boys.

I'm eager to do a 100ct map with my 335i. I just haven't gotten around to it yet. I'm guessing it'll hit 400lbft of torque at the wheels without any problem. Peak hp will be limited by turbo capacity but I'll be dissappointed if we don't see 370whp.

-shiv
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      11-21-2006, 10:02 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu
Hi JP,
We have successfully raised rev limiters with the Xede. This is because the Xede is capable of driving the coils and injectors directly if configured appropriately. This is what makes it a bit different from other piggy-backs.

The main reason we have opted to be as non-evasive as possible has to do with warranty and trace-ability concerns. Our goal, first and foremost, was to make the Xede completely undectable by the DME or anyone monitoring the DME. However, if we were to ever run into issues such as E-throttle bottlenecks, we will find a way to get around it. It just hasn't happened. It seems as if modern computers are getting easier, not harder, to be manipulated if the necessary measures are taken.

About half of our business is ECU reflashing (Subaru, Evo, etc,.). The other half is XEDE tuning. Either one can be a complete engine control solution. It's up to the user to determine what his constraints and needs are.

my 2c,
shiv
Hey shiv,

On a Bosch Motronic and Siemens (for BMW), there isn't a wire you can tap into and set rev limits/speed governors. Although it may be possible on certain cars with piggybacks, as far as warranty issues, in the worst case scenario a turbo blows maybe even an engine, spliced wires are visible which will mean void of warranty anyway.

Again, for informational purposes only, we're all in the same boat regardless of how we're going to tune these vehicles, but there's no "undetectable" way to tune the car (cutting wires, opening up ECUs, or ODBII tuning). All leave "junk code" or traces, or counters.

Also, what happens if the ECU begins adapting back to stock regardless of piggyback - how long has R&D been tested for the Xede?

Thanks in advance,
JP
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      11-21-2006, 10:13 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JP@SI
Hey shiv,

On a Bosch Motronic and Siemens (for BMW), there isn't a wire you can tap into and set rev limits/speed governors. Although it may be possible on certain cars with piggybacks, as far as warranty issues, in the worst case scenario a turbo blows maybe even an engine, spliced wires are visible which will mean void of warranty anyway.

Again, for informational purposes only, we're all in the same boat regardless of how we're going to tune these vehicles, but there's no "undetectable" way to tune the car (cutting wires, opening up ECUs, or ODBII tuning). All leave "junk code" or traces, or counters.

Also, what happens if the ECU begins adapting back to stock regardless of piggyback - how long has R&D been tested for the Xede?

Thanks in advance,
JP
Hi JP.
We are cutting no wires with the XEDE install. We're not even tapping into any wires. And there is no trace, counters or "junk codes" associated with running the XEDE. I'd like to think we thought it out pretty well. As for ECU adapting back to stock, it doesn't because we effectively recalibrate the feedback sensors responsible for the learning. The DME sees nothing out of the ordindary.

Injector duty cycle, Calculated load, Wastegate duty, fuel pressure, knock counts, fuel/ignition trims, wideband signals, etc,. will all show normal values when logged. A lot of this is attributable to the software flexability with regards to mapping. We're able to generate conditional inputs/outputs based upon any number of input/output variables. I don't know of any stand-alone or piggy-back system that does this. Nor I am aware of anyone who has managed to reverse engineer such tuner-definable logic into factory ROM functionality. Every system has it's strenghts. This just happens to be ours. So far, we've put close to 5000 miles on our car. 4800 miles with the XEDE. The car has displayed perfect long-term consistency. And there is no reason for this to change.

-shiv
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      11-21-2006, 10:19 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrH
I dont get the point of a 100 octane tuning? Unless of course you're planning on building a street racer and driving around with 93+ octane all the time? or will that sort of tuning result in a more efficient map overall?
We will be driving around with a 93 octane tune all the time. The 100 octane tune...well its all about run what you brung.
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      11-21-2006, 10:20 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu
Hi JP.
We are cutting no wires with the XEDE install. We're not even tapping into any wires. And there is no trace, counters or "junk codes" associated with running the XEDE. I'd like to think we thought it out pretty well. As for ECU adapting back to stock, it doesn't because we effectively recalibrate the feedback sensors responsible for the learning. The DME sees nothing out of the ordindary.

Injector duty cycle, Calculated load, Wastegate duty, fuel pressure, knock counts, fuel/ignition trims, wideband signals, etc,. will all show normal values when logged. A lot of this is attributable to the software flexability with regards to mapping. We're able to generate conditional inputs/outputs based upon any number of input/output variables. I don't know of any stand-alone or piggy-back system that does this. Nor I am aware of anyone who has managed to reverse engineer such tuner-definable logic into factory ROM functionality. Every system has it's strenghts. This just happens to be ours. So far, we've put close to 5000 miles on our car. 4800 miles with the XEDE. The car has displayed perfect long-term consistency. And there is no reason for this to change.

-shiv
So the Xede unit has DME plugs (which the unit itself plugs inbetween) like a M/M connector so that the stock wiring harness plugs inbetween?
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      11-21-2006, 10:25 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by JP@SI
So the Xede unit has DME plugs (which the unit itself plugs inbetween) like a M/M connector so that the stock wiring harness plugs inbetween?
Let's just say it tooks us 6 weeks to get the factory ECU terminals. We were on it the first day we got the car. Unfortunately, there isn't enough space in the ECU compartment to fit a full patch harness. So we had to be a bit more creative. But no, there is no wire cutting or splicing. And install, once the ECU is exposed, will take about 10 minutes and require no special tools.

-shiv
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      11-21-2006, 10:29 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu
Let's just say it tooks us 6 weeks to get the factory ECU terminals. We were on it the first day we got the car. Unfortunately, there isn't enough space in the ECU compartment to fit a full patch harness. So we had to be a bit more creative. But no, there is no wire cutting or splicing. And install, once the ECU is exposed, will take about 10 minutes and require no special tools.

-shiv
Ah, so are you guys still having issues about the RPM limits?
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      11-21-2006, 10:31 PM   #99
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Ah, so are you guys still having issues about the RPM limits?
Not that I'm aware of. Were we at one time?

-shiv
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      11-21-2006, 10:36 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Dannys 335i
We will be driving around with a 93 octane tune all the time. The 100 octane tune...well its all about run what you brung.
It was pretty funny last year when the price of premium was approaching $4/gallon here in CA. While the price of race gas, by the barrel, was unchanged at approx $5/gallon. I don't think I've ever done so many race gas tunes in a season. We even made a few trunk-mounted aux fuel cells that held 10 gallons of the good stuff. When the time came, the user would flip the Xede's switch to the race gas map, the turn the knob that activated the secondary tank and voila... it's go time. Now, with the bigger price differential between pump and race gas, methanol injection is getting more popular. And with the charge cooling effects it brings, the gains are fantastic.

-shiv
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      11-21-2006, 10:51 PM   #101
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      11-21-2006, 11:00 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu
Ahhh.. i think it you've never driven a car that was mapped for 100 octane

Let me put it this way, about 75% of all our Evo XEDE customers ask for both pump gas and 100oct race gas maps when they come into the get dyno tuned. Depending on the turbo in the car, the race gas map is worth 40-100whp more than the pump gas map. On the good stuff, the cars run cooler, happier and a helluva lot stronger. They toggle over to the race gas map when they go to the drag strip, track days or even... ahem... street races. It's their secret "equalizer" when it comes to going up against the bigger boys.

I'm eager to do a 100ct map with my 335i. I just haven't gotten around to it yet. I'm guessing it'll hit 400lbft of torque at the wheels without any problem. Peak hp will be limited by turbo capacity but I'll be dissappointed if we don't see 370whp.

-shiv
Hi Shiv,

Would it make sense to have a seperate map for those of us that live at high-altitude? I for example, live at 4,500 above sea level. The atmpospheric pressure here is about 12.5 psi versus 14.7 at sea level. Will the turbo's fully compensate for this decrease in air pressure or would it make sense to have another map that would add 2.2psi of boost across the rev range to help compensate? Thanks!
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      11-21-2006, 11:08 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu
It was pretty funny last year when the price of premium was approaching $4/gallon here in CA. While the price of race gas, by the barrel, was unchanged at approx $5/gallon. I don't think I've ever done so many race gas tunes in a season. We even made a few trunk-mounted aux fuel cells that held 10 gallons of the good stuff. When the time came, the user would flip the Xede's switch to the race gas map, the turn the knob that activated the secondary tank and voila... it's go time.

-shiv
Lol that's awesome.
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      11-21-2006, 11:43 PM   #104
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Me too. Like my new sig?
So, there is no silicon involved in your product?
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      11-22-2006, 12:11 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu
Not that I'm aware of. Were we at one time?

-shiv
Ah, I just noticed in the front page about the sport/non-sport package vehicles not being able to rev to 7000, excuse me if within the last couple pages the issue was resolved.
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      11-22-2006, 12:22 AM   #106
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Ah, I just noticed in the front page about the sport/non-sport package vehicles not being able to rev to 7000, excuse me if within the last couple pages the issue was resolved.
Ah.. ok. That's a speed limiter. The car will rev out to 7000RPM in the lower gears but stops the fun when vehicle speed is greater than 135mph. Removing or raising the speed limiter shouldn't involve more than intercepting the signal (freq, square wave, etc,.) and regenerating it differently. Done it before on many cars. I don't expect the BMW to be much different. It's just not something I like to get into on street cars. We don't even raise speed limits on our ECU flashes unless its for competition use, fwiw.

-shiv
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      11-22-2006, 12:23 AM   #107
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It was asked twice and never answered. And both times, it was asked if the limiter would be removed. Thats not what I was asking. I got my answer, but, tell you what. You go find where that was answered and Ill send you $20, and a formal apology. Good luck.
PS. It wasnt first asked till page 20 something i believe it was 23.
Yep, page 23, and it was answered... in this post
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...637#post491637

dont worry about the 20 bucks...
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      11-22-2006, 12:29 AM   #108
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actually no "adriver" worry about it, i pm you with my paypal address?
The bet was with me, back off!
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      11-22-2006, 01:02 AM   #109
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SHIV -

I'm not interested in ULTRA performance, just something that will boost what I have by a good margin and keep the stock exhaust. I also want to know what the ZERO to 60 times are and qtr mile; I know a lot of people put some times down, but I haven't found your real world numbers. Because this all looks good on a dyno, but you and I know what happens on the street is different... Also any LSD in the works?
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      11-22-2006, 01:29 AM   #110
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Quote:
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Yep, page 23, and it was answered... in this post
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...637#post491637

dont worry about the 20 bucks...

Sorry, but he is right and you are still wrong. He wasn't asking about Shiv removing the 155 limiter on the ZSP equipped cars which is what the post you linked was referencing. I'm not sure why it is so hard for you to see the difference but it is 2 completely different Q & A's:

1. Shiv, can/will the Xede remove the 155 MPH speed limiter or increase the rev limiter above 7000, Answer, No (see page 23)

2. Shiv, can the Xede make the non-ZSP equipped 335i's the same as ZSP 335i's so that the top speed is limited at 155 and the car will redline at 7000 rpm in 4th gear, Answer, "It'll take a bit of work. And, to be honest, it's a safety/liability issue I'd rather not get into." page 3 take 5.

To me this answer is still somewhat ambiguous. I can't see how it is a liability issue since you are still under the self imposed 155 max that I think pretty much all imports conform to except P cars and ultra exotics Lets face it, we are all exposed to liability whether it is tunign a car to accellerate much faster and someone going kaboom, or practicing medicine, law, construction, etc.
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