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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Take 5: Vishnu 335i - Finally tested the Vishnu Stg 1 "kit"



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      11-22-2006, 02:00 AM   #111
shiv@vishnu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by radgator1
Sorry, but he is right and you are still wrong. He wasn't asking about Shiv removing the 155 limiter on the ZSP equipped cars which is what the post you linked was referencing. I'm not sure why it is so hard for you to see the difference but it is 2 completely different Q & A's:

1. Shiv, can/will the Xede remove the 155 MPH speed limiter or increase the rev limiter above 7000, Answer, No (see page 23)

2. Shiv, can the Xede make the non-ZSP equipped 335i's the same as ZSP 335i's so that the top speed is limited at 155 and the car will redline at 7000 rpm in 4th gear, Answer, "It'll take a bit of work. And, to be honest, it's a safety/liability issue I'd rather not get into." page 3 take 5.

To me this answer is still somewhat ambiguous. I can't see how it is a liability issue since you are still under the self imposed 155 max that I think pretty much all imports conform to except P cars and ultra exotics Lets face it, we are all exposed to liability whether it is tunign a car to accellerate much faster and someone going kaboom, or practicing medicine, law, construction, etc.
It is possible to raise both the speed limiter and the rev limiter. The former is pretty easy. The latter takes some work but is doable. It's always been policy not to raise speed limiters unless a special circumstances demands it (race car, magazine shootouts, etc,.). The issue is not only your liability. It is also the tuner's liability. And it's a pretty big one at that. Making a car go faster (top speed) than what was specified by the manufacturer is a pretty big deal. Saying that the Sport package equipped car can do 155mph so the non-Sports equipped car should be able to as well wont satisfy a laywer who has is own agendas. I have no problem making a car get to its top speed as quickly as possible. Above that is another story with a bunch of new rules/concerns.

Just my 2c,
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      11-22-2006, 02:35 AM   #112
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can't wait for the 100 octane dyno Shiv
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      11-22-2006, 07:50 AM   #113
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fuel blend

shiv,
can you also do a map using a mix of fuel to give around 97 octane, for all of us worldwide who can get this at the pertol station. I am sure a lot of people would be interested in the extra power available from this. I bet we are looking at minimum 350 at the wheels on this fuel.
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      11-22-2006, 09:36 AM   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by radgator1
Sorry, but he is right and you are still wrong. He wasn't asking about Shiv removing the 155 limiter on the ZSP equipped cars which is what the post you linked was referencing. I'm not sure why it is so hard for you to see the difference but it is 2 completely different Q & A's:
The bet was that the 2 questions were not answered... read his post, I know he is talking about rev, not speed, but the bet that it was never answered for the question on page 23 of shiv's thread, but actually, it was... read the bet... it doesnt matter anyways, its not like i am going to try to get 20 bucks from the guy

Quote:
Originally Posted by adriver
It was asked twice and never answered. And both times, it was asked if the limiter would be removed. Thats not what I was asking. I got my answer, but, tell you what. You go find where it was answered and Ill send you $20, and a formal apology. Good luck.
PS. It wasnt first asked till page 20 something i believe it was 23.
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      11-22-2006, 10:39 AM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu
It is possible to raise both the speed limiter and the rev limiter. The former is pretty easy. The latter takes some work but is doable. It's always been policy not to raise speed limiters unless a special circumstances demands it (race car, magazine shootouts, etc,.). The issue is not only your liability. It is also the tuner's liability. And it's a pretty big one at that. Making a car go faster (top speed) than what was specified by the manufacturer is a pretty big deal. Saying that the Sport package equipped car can do 155mph so the non-Sports equipped car should be able to as well wont satisfy a laywer who has is own agendas. I have no problem making a car get to its top speed as quickly as possible. Above that is another story with a bunch of new rules/concerns.

Just my 2c,
shiv

Note also that the BMW limits are tied to the speed ratings of the stock tires. The non-Sport tires are rated at 130 and the Sport tires are rated at 155 so I'm sure BMW put in the limiter to specifically address liability concerns.
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      11-22-2006, 11:49 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by Insider
Hi Shiv,

Would it make sense to have a seperate map for those of us that live at high-altitude? I for example, live at 4,500 above sea level. The atmpospheric pressure here is about 12.5 psi versus 14.7 at sea level. Will the turbo's fully compensate for this decrease in air pressure or would it make sense to have another map that would add 2.2psi of boost across the rev range to help compensate? Thanks!
Since there has been no respone, I take it that having a high-altitude map would make no sense? The car probably does this automatically, right? Anyone have a clue?
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      11-22-2006, 11:54 AM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Backattack
SHIV -

I'm not interested in ULTRA performance, just something that will boost what I have by a good margin and keep the stock exhaust. I also want to know what the ZERO to 60 times are and qtr mile; I know a lot of people put some times down, but I haven't found your real world numbers. Because this all looks good on a dyno, but you and I know what happens on the street is different... Also any LSD in the works?
Shiv does not do 0-60 times and quarter mile times. He has said this many times. IMO they are mostly useless anyway as they vary from driver to driver even in the exact same car. Nobody drives the same. That said you can probably expect 0-60 times of about 4.1 to 4.3 seconds in a Vishu tuned 335 (that's with the Xede and exhaust.) Quarter mile would probably be in the high 12's to low 13's depending on your launch, etc.

You mentioned not getting the exhaust so you can expect those times above to be slightly higher. The 1/4 mile times will still fall in the range above but 0-60 times most likely will not. Since nobody has gotten just an Xede only install yet there is no way to guesstimate the times.

As for LSD, I believe Shiv has mentioned that it's not really needed nor something he is interested in but I could be wrong so a search would be better to answer this question.
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      11-22-2006, 11:55 AM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Insider
Hi Shiv,

Would it make sense to have a seperate map for those of us that live at high-altitude? I for example, live at 4,500 above sea level. The atmpospheric pressure here is about 12.5 psi versus 14.7 at sea level. Will the turbo's fully compensate for this decrease in air pressure or would it make sense to have another map that would add 2.2psi of boost across the rev range to help compensate? Thanks!


Since there has been no respone, I take it that having a high-altitude map would make no sense? The car probably does this automatically, right? Anyone have a clue?

+1, 5000 ft. here.
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      11-22-2006, 12:47 PM   #119
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Hey guys--- I gotta catch a flight. Going to tune a couple of bone stock 335is tomorrow. Be back on Friday. I'll try my best to get caught up on questions then.
cheers,
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      11-22-2006, 01:38 PM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu
It is possible to raise both the speed limiter and the rev limiter. The former is pretty easy. The latter takes some work but is doable. It's always been policy not to raise speed limiters unless a special circumstances demands it (race car, magazine shootouts, etc,.). The issue is not only your liability. It is also the tuner's liability. And it's a pretty big one at that. Making a car go faster (top speed) than what was specified by the manufacturer is a pretty big deal. Saying that the Sport package equipped car can do 155mph so the non-Sports equipped car should be able to as well wont satisfy a laywer who has is own agendas. I have no problem making a car get to its top speed as quickly as possible. Above that is another story with a bunch of new rules/concerns.

Just my 2c,
shiv
I respect that and it is totally your call since it is your business and potentially your ass on the line but I truly don't see it as a greater liability issue than taking a car that was tested and designed to be safe with 270 wheel HP and making it 340 whp which it was not designed and tested to handle, and taking a car one that comes in both 155 top speed and 135 top speed and making both 155, especially if a buyer can demonstrate he has the tires and suspension to handle the speed. Again, it is totally your call as you are the man but I just don't think the lawyer would be any less likely to go after someone for adding HP than changing a top speed since neither were intended from the car designer and at least the 155 top speed is known to be "safe" for the same model where 340 whp is a total unknown but certainly could be looked at as increasing risk.

I certainly wont let it be a deal breaker for me and I plan on buying your product but I am a little disappointed that I cant get my top speed to 155 which is within BMW parameters
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      11-22-2006, 01:41 PM   #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RiXst3r
The bet was that the 2 questions were not answered... read his post, I know he is talking about rev, not speed, but the bet that it was never answered for the question on page 23 of shiv's thread, but actually, it was... read the bet... it doesnt matter anyways, its not like i am going to try to get 20 bucks from the guy
I know, it's all semantics but the essence of what he and I were asking has to do completely with non-zsp and it was never addressed until this thread, thats my only point. It's all good, but I want my 155 and I have tires rated at 170 so maybe Shiv will bend a little on this one (not likely )
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      11-22-2006, 02:46 PM   #122
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There is always a dislcaimer that can be signed and notorized along with an agreement to use at one's own risk and/or for offroad/track purposes only since the user will have the ABILITY to de-activate the unit. (Probably not the self control though)

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      11-22-2006, 02:55 PM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RiXst3r
The bet was that the 2 questions were not answered... read his post, I know he is talking about rev, not speed, but the bet that it was never answered for the question on page 23 of shiv's thread, but actually, it was... read the bet... it doesnt matter anyways, its not like i am going to try to get 20 bucks from the guy
No, my (one-sided) "bet" was that MY question was not answered. Radgator1 thank you for wording it better than I could think of by just using zsp and non-zsp. I thought that would be a concern to more people than just myself. I was talking about rev and speed, 6400-7K and 135-155. He doesnt want to do it and now we all know, me personally, this is the only reason for me to spend the extra 1K for zsp.

Shiv trying not to get too annonying about this, but is their any way to work around this? Maybe if its an easily adjustable feature since we have easy access to the maps, or can prove that our cars are upgraded to better than atleast zsp (with tires) Not that I really plan on going 155+ anywhere, but maybe signing a waver. Im not too sure about all the legalities, and I know you spend enough time going in details on here, but would someone even be able to come after you if the fan got dirty?
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      11-22-2006, 02:58 PM   #124
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155 is not 'within' parameters for YOUR specific car, rather, it is within parameters for a SPORT package equipped car. At least, I think that is how BMW would see it.

This is a good lesson for all of those who opted against the sport package but at the same time I will probably NEVER see above 130. PIR is a short track and the fastest I went on the front straight in my WRX was ~120. In addition I will autocross the 335 and I never go above ~60 during those events.
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      11-22-2006, 03:06 PM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonn335
shiv,
can you also do a map using a mix of fuel to give around 97 octane, for all of us worldwide who can get this at the pertol station. I am sure a lot of people would be interested in the extra power available from this. I bet we are looking at minimum 350 at the wheels on this fuel.
The 97 octane gas that you can get outside the US is equivalent to about 91-92 octane gasoline here in the US (I hope this is just from pure ignorance on your behalf, because you don't get better gasoline). It's just a different way of interpreting those numbers. The means, no you will not get 350 whp with your "97" octane gas and yes, shiv already has a map for the gas that you use (the 91 octane map that he has).

Man, I hate ignorant people!
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      11-22-2006, 03:14 PM   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Borti
155 is not 'within' parameters for YOUR specific car, rather, it is within parameters for a SPORT package equipped car. At least, I think that is how BMW would see it.

This is a good lesson for all of those who opted against the sport package but at the same time I will probably NEVER see above 130. PIR is a short track and the fastest I went on the front straight in my WRX was ~120. In addition I will autocross the 335 and I never go above ~60 during those events.

WHY? The difference between zsp and non zsp is the seats have side bolsters, (plan on a some weight reduction, next.) Their are sport rated tires, (they are still run flats that will make good winter wheels). And the rev and speed limiter. There are plenty of places to legally go over 135. Am I the only one whos willing to do a little writing about trying to save 1K on a new car if its not going to be necessary?
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      11-22-2006, 03:21 PM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adriver
WHY? The difference between zsp and non zsp is the seats have side bolsters, (plan on a some weight reduction, next.) Their are sport rated tires, (they are still run flats that will make good winter wheels). And the rev and speed limiter. There are plenty of places to legally go over 135. Am I the only one whos willing to do a little writing about trying to save 1K on a new car if its not going to be necessary?
There are a few other differences as well.

Star Spoke (Styling 162) light-alloy wheels, 18 x 8.0 front, 18 x 8.5 rear; 225/40R-18 front, 255/35R-18 rear run-flat performance tires

8-way power front sport seats with adjustable back bolsters, 2-way manual headrests and thigh support; driver memory for exterior mirror and seat positions

3-spoke leather-wrapped multi-function sport steering wheel with audio controls

Steering wheel-mounted paddle shifters

Sport suspension calibration

The biggest one I see here is Sport suspension calibration. That's telling me that the suspension is calibrated differently, perhaps to allow for safer driving at speeds above 135....
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      11-22-2006, 03:34 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by adriver
Their are sport rated tires, (they are still run flats that will make good winter wheels).
You must be joking.
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      11-22-2006, 03:57 PM   #129
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No, he's not I live in germany and theres no way I'm driving them in the winter time. I'd probably cut the car in half on the autobahn.
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      11-22-2006, 06:51 PM   #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tommithy
There are a few other differences as well.

Star Spoke (Styling 162) light-alloy wheels, 18 x 8.0 front, 18 x 8.5 rear; 225/40R-18 front, 255/35R-18 rear run-flat performance tires

8-way power front sport seats with adjustable back bolsters, 2-way manual headrests and thigh support; driver memory for exterior mirror and seat positions

3-spoke leather-wrapped multi-function sport steering wheel with audio controls

Steering wheel-mounted paddle shifters

Sport suspension calibration

The biggest one I see here is Sport suspension calibration. That's telling me that the suspension is calibrated differently, perhaps to allow for safer driving at speeds above 135....
You left out the tires. On the non-Sport they are rated (by the tire mfgr) for 130 mph max. Therefore, by definition, they (and thus the car) are not safe above that speed. If you want to put higher rated tires on the car, then it's a different story, but I think a tuner like Shiv would have to get a lawyer involved to draft a release of liability that would stand up in court.

Incidentally, the suspension is the same for Sport and non-Sport (on the E92).
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      11-22-2006, 07:18 PM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tommithy
There are a few other differences as well.

Star Spoke (Styling 162) light-alloy wheels, 18 x 8.0 front, 18 x 8.5 rear; 225/40R-18 front, 255/35R-18 rear run-flat performance tires

8-way power front sport seats with adjustable back bolsters, 2-way manual headrests and thigh support; driver memory for exterior mirror and seat positions

3-spoke leather-wrapped multi-function sport steering wheel with audio controls

Steering wheel-mounted paddle shifters

Sport suspension calibration

The biggest one I see here is Sport suspension calibration. That's telling me that the suspension is calibrated differently, perhaps to allow for safer driving at speeds above 135....
OK, Ill explain this too.. yes they are light alloy 18s, but Ill bet they are still heavier than what I would like, and I dont care for how any of the factory wheels look. The 335i seat sits between the stock seat, and the zsp seat. I dont care to searc again, but i believe the only difference was the side bolsters. (I dont care Im sure we will soon find out these seats weigh a lot more than they need to.) Paddle shifters..... I take it you want to get an automatic. A 335i will not have any different suspension than one with ZSP!!! Where does this come from? The only (legal) reason for the speedometer increase is the tires. THATS IT.
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      11-22-2006, 08:02 PM   #132
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Sorry guys, Im to laxy to read the whole thread:

Whats does Stg.1 include?

and How much WHP do u gain?
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