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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > NA Engine (non-turbo) / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications > Help needed, Timing problem P0341 code 06' 325i



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      05-31-2014, 04:55 PM   #1
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Help needed, Timing problem P0341 code 06' 325i

Okay, here I go, long story I will try to summarize:

I have one of those problematic N52 engines in regards to the aluminum bolts breaking on the valve cover cylinder head forward side (3 under valve cover and 1 external by oil filter housing). This caused slight oil consumption/leakage, which in turned caused that hard to clean grease like grime to get on the serpentine belt area and pulleys. This in turn caused my belt to slip off after a good few months of its use. Upon further inspection, noticed the belt was slightly overhanging the tensioner pulley (by 1/8"), checked tensioner, seemed to provide plenty of tension, thought it was weird but went on thinking it was just the oil...eventually got tired of changing belts from 3 months on to 6 months and looked more into it. The crankshaft pulley seemed to be suspect by more people than just myself with up to 4 different people's opinon, so I decide to pull it off and inspect the rubber, which turned out fine (it was the tensioner bad, later changed), however this is where I screwed up. I didn't bother using a manual, thinking nothing could go wrong (lesson learned). I took the pulley off from the crankshaft bolt (Big one that is always torqued by Superman himself), this in turn removes the Hub along with the crankshaft which would of been fine, however my oil pump drive chain sprocket holder (Plastic P.O.S) broke from the load tension against it... This caused a whole mess of crap (Lowering subframe, mounts, steering column pinch bolt, oil pan, etc.) Anyways that stuff I replaced already.

My question is how the hell do I have a P0341 Camshaft fault (Indicates to me that I screwed up the timing) when I didn't change the chain, nor change where the teeth sit on either VANOS camshaft units, nor the sprocket that engages on the crankshaft hub?

I bought a manual and thoroughly understand all the tooling involved with checking the timing on this, but with my interpretation of the tooling involved would of been necessary if I had actually changed the chain, but I didn't. I simply did not move the VANOS and reengaged the sprocket in the same position (doesn't give you room to even move it to a different position on the currently installed chain). Well anyways now vehicle cranks over, rotates, camshaft is turning (Viewed turning thru oil fill cover) and it won't start, got a P0341 fault "Camshaft Position Sensor A Circuit Range/Performance B1 pending.

All troubleshooting that I've read indicates a wiring issue or bad cam sensor, however this would be suspect if this sort of maintenance was not performed. Also, the fault is described as when TDC signal from CAM sensor is out of range. So, now I'm trying to understand how the maintenance I did threw it off possibly??? I know a wire could be a potential, but the download diagnostic doesn't pick up IM problems, which tells me its communicating with the sensor, however out of range. I'm hoping someone knows something that might be better than re-opening the valve cover and installing 500 dollars in timing tools (BMW specific tooling). Thanks in advance.

Last edited by DAVID,; 05-31-2014 at 05:20 PM.
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      05-31-2014, 06:54 PM   #2
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Update to problem

So my last sentence was about IM saying it was communicating, correction this is not one of the IM Monitors (Inspection/Maintenance monitors for Emissions) so my comment excluding the sensor being bad could be wrong because it is not an IM device, i.e. the scanner isn't looking for it being disconnected.

I tried disconnecting it and on the IM menu it doesn't show up as a problem (it's not listed). However with it disconnect the P0341 fault remains the same, however the description changes to "Short/Open", which makes sense.

I have a theory that I may have changed the last position recorded in the PCM as to where the Camshaft was in relation and it isn't allowing me to delete the fault, so it won't start.

I can't seem to erase the fault with the scan tool, it has an option to with the OTC 3109 Model, however it "communicates with vehicle" after prompting it to erase the fault. Then it says make sure ignition is on with engine off (For push start button vehicle, I assume this is microchip key in start slot of dash? I mean what else could you do?) Then it comes back with a message saying its complete and 1 message is left (which is the same one). I tried disconnecting battery, this doesn't seem to reset either???? HALP Plz!
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      05-31-2014, 07:03 PM   #3
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More to follow

According to the Scan manual, it performs a scan after the erasing function and lists remaining codes. If a code is present then it means that the problem has not been fixed.

If that is the case, why did it not allow the erase after I reconnected the electrical connectors... This is too crazy.
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      05-31-2014, 08:36 PM   #4
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Somehow I got the scanner after doing it 50 times to show 0 codes... Didn't do anything different then before, now after attempting another start it shows as short/open same fault, I check the connector/harness and nothing appears bad, I'm going to put a DMM on the wires and trace them tomorrow. Hopefully, its just a bad cable and can be repaired. Dunno though, maybe its catastrophic and I destroyed the engine, due to not buying the ridiculous amount of tooling req'd to check the timing. Hopefully not :/
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      05-31-2014, 11:08 PM   #5
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Hi David,

Your problem lies in the fact that the central bolt was loosened. Once this is the bolt is released, the central sprocket and oil pump sprocket gets disconnected from the crank. When this occurs, the chain tensioner physically moves the chain and turns both the crank sprocket oil sprocket and camshafts. So everything but the crank moves. Therefore re-timing is required for the crank, camshafts and adjustment units.

So in theory, you may have jumped a tooth or two and placed the entire engine timing off. Therefore not allowing the engine to start.

I would bring it to someone that has the timing tools and re-time the motor before getting into electronics.

HTH
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      06-01-2014, 01:55 PM   #6
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X Drive,

This all makes sense, good explanation. Lesson learned... Now I'm scared I may have bent/damaged my valves/pistons, now that I'm thinking of this whole situation and the amount of force to turn it at various positions making a full rotation on the crank I'm thinking more than likely I screwed it... I mean, nothing on this car has ever gone in my favor so I think I'm safe to say I screwed it up. What do you think?
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      06-01-2014, 02:22 PM   #7
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Ill tell you this much. There have been n52 motors that I have seen with a cam installed 180 deg out. Re-installed and re-timed, the engine ran with no signs of damage. I think you are safe. If the engine rotates with out the sound of snapping and banging metal, there is a good chance that no damage was done.
I say re-time the motor the way the repair instructions say and I am pretty sure that you are going to be golden.
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      06-01-2014, 07:17 PM   #8
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For as much disappointment I had that the engine timing was off, now I'm jumping with joy knowing that it is probably still okay after a re-time. Thanks man! I will probably not get to this for a couple weeks, been busy working extended shifts, I will later post how it goes.
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      06-02-2014, 02:21 PM   #9
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Werd, let us know how it goes brotha!
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      06-03-2014, 08:13 PM   #10
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I think X Drive is on the money here!!

A friend of mine had an E90 325i and had something similar, in his case the crank pulley bolt had actually snapped and caused the timing to go out or become erratic.

He posted a video of what the engine sounded like at the time:



The local BMW dealer replaced the bolt but he was fed-up with the car since it had the dreaded HVA ticking noise, so ended up selling it.

From RealOEM - part 5 and 6 (the sprocket):


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      06-15-2014, 02:16 PM   #11
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New parts coming in Tuesdayish, Timing tool kit will be in tomorrow, I'm looking forward to the results...I'm hoping for the best, hopefully mine won't sound like that video. When I previously had the subframe down, I was curious as to the timing hole pin location, I seen openings in the flywheel to oil pan case that were too big... I didn't see where the TDC pin hole was though. My Haynes manual pic is kinda screwy and doesn't look the same (Its broad for various BMW's). I'm wondering if I'm going to have to jack up the vehichle and remove the bottom paneling again or gain access to the TDC flywheel hole through intake removal...I've done the intake before and really don't want to do it again (Its got so many time consuming things, plus I would need to order new gasket) Any suggestions as to gaining access to the crank timing hole? Maybe I'm not curving my arm enough and might take out the drive side bracing if that will do it (Don't want to, cuz technically they are "one time use per manual" and thats another order, although they are steel) I will if I need to though.
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      06-15-2014, 02:21 PM   #12
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O yeah, I was also curious about item 6 on the illustration above. It looks like some kind of ring or something in between the Crank hub and sprocket. When I removed mine, I did not see anything like this item. I notice on Realoem.com it doesn't list a part number, so I dismissed it. Do you guys happen to know why this is the picture, but no part number? Seems like an error in the illustration to me.
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      06-15-2014, 03:25 PM   #13
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I think I found it and don't need to put on jacks or remove intake. It is in a tricky spot, but upon removal of the driver sway brace it is possible, I'll have to see with the pin when I get it tomorrow to be sure. Seems to be in corner of flange just under starter in the rear of cylinder head, hard to get to, but not impossible.
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      06-16-2014, 03:36 PM   #14
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Well, glad you have the parts and the timing tool on the way!! And hopefully you can get this sorted out!!

Keep us posted.
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      06-18-2014, 05:58 PM   #15
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Installing the locating pin to time the crank to TDC is a kind of a PITA if you are on your back. It is a good job to remove the intake if you do not have access to a lift.

One word of warning is that next to the timing hole on the flex plate(if your vehicle is auto) is another hole. Many people will feel the timing pin go through this hole and think that they have hit TDC. The Danger of doing this is incorrectly timing the crank at few degrees out. Then you are back to square one. To be really sure that you are 100% in the locating pin hole, is to try to move the crank at the front. If there is ANY, I REPEAT, ANY movement, you are not in the correct location. There must be NO, I REPEAT, NO movement when you have set the crank at TDC with the locating pin installed.

I cannot stress this enough when timing the crank. (thats why I repeated things. lol)

The worst is finishing the job and having a simple thing like this to ruin your week.

Oh and the the other thing that will definitely ruin your week is if you forget to take that pin out. What I do is stick a sticky note on the windscreen, KOMBI and the steering wheel with this written on them. "If you value your sanity, check if you removed the timing pin."

Good luck dude! If you follow what I wrote and the general repair instructions, you are guaranteed 2pts for the win. Post up if you need any thing else.
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      06-20-2014, 12:33 PM   #16
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Well I don't want to remove the intake. As previously mentioned, I think I found it, however I can't get the pin to come thru the hole, its the right diameter but the pin goes in 1/4 inch and stops, I rotate the crank to see if it aligns and I am now questioning if this is the hole (I can't see it, going by feel, sticking my arm down thru driver side brace area and contorting my arm, it seems like its the hole from one picture in the manual, however another picture shows a 2nd hole by the hole you pin.... Does my location sound correct? Just under starter motor in the corner under the flanged lip of rear left side cylinder head. I removed some piece of plastic earlier on in the process and I think this came from this area, maybe it was a plug and it seemed to be cracked (I theorize a piece might be blocking the hole, if this is indeed the correct hole). Either way I'll figure it out tomorrow, but if there is some reassurance here as to the TDC hole location, it could save me some time. Thanks.
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      06-20-2014, 01:11 PM   #17
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Hi David, the pin is a tight fit. What helps is sanding it lightly with fine paper and a little bit of thin spray lube. Sometimes crud gets in the hole.(insert dirty thought here)

You'll have to jiggle it it. It's a real pain but it will engage, with a little patience and choice profanities. Like I said before. You'll know when you have engaged the proper TDC hole when the crank has no movement. After that your solid.
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      06-27-2014, 11:00 AM   #18
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I'm working that hole (insert another dirty thought here). I'm sure your tricks to Crank TDC hole are the normal, but my situation is not normal for sure (Sanding the pin, jiggling, cleaning hole, etc. just isn't working) I'm currently working on it before I go in to work (started raining, so here I am). The pin enters about 1/4" max and clinks. I was at first suspicious if this is the right hole and after thorough research it is in fact the right hole. So I then borrowed a friend's borescope device and took a look into the hole. Sure enough the Inner diameter looked rough, flared inwards, etc. This was ever so slightly but definitely an issue. So I made me a little round file rig to clean up the hole (That's where I'm at, it's getting better but taking forever). I also was able to align it at TDC, the Cam shafts were approx 115 degrees off... How the heck. I know I'm in the right position because I removed #1 cylinder spark plug and visually looked at cylinder at highest point and looked through the hole on the crank with my borescope. The only thing now is getting the pin in, so when I torque the crank the hub doesn't slip in turn causing the driveplate to slip slightly (and yes I know to still counter-hold the hub because the pin is not a sufficient counter torque device)... What a pain in the Arse! Thanks for your advice X-Drive, your posts have reassured my thoughts. I'll post again when I make progress.
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      06-27-2014, 11:02 AM   #19
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O yeah and "A few choice profanities" is putting it lightly.
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      06-29-2014, 05:18 PM   #20
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Timing good, now the small stuff....hopefully

Well, I got the timing right on. That blasted, POS, horrible, etc., TDC crank hole was the most frustrating thing, but I adapted and overcame the situation. I used a 4" file (broke it to that size), made a T-handle out of electrical tape and kept hitting the burrs in the hole. Finally I was able to slip it in the hole and reach the driveplate. I don't think this is a normal situation, however it in fact was mine. Anyways I got everything done on the timing (Camshaft Jig and Vanos Jig installed while TDC pin in and Crank bolt Torqued). Spun it 3 complete camshaft rotations and was able to pin perfectly every time. I'm confident this is done right. Now, everything is put back together and my first start was ruff and shut off. Left me with 3 codes, one was the orignal that wouldn't clear (P0341). The other two were P0223 "Idle validation Signals both Hight (Above 5v) and P1624 "No DTC definition found, see service manual". Now I cleared faults and restarted, ran good (A little rough on the start, one could expect after not being completely started for 3 months). At idle at first was a little high (normal), then when it settled down but on the low side, but did not stall (was a little hesitant though, slightly vibrating unnormal, slightly to low RPM). Warmed up and ran at idle fine for 5 more mins. and everything seemed good, no codes after engine off. Started again today and noted a clinging sound slightly upon start a little rough, but instantly back to normal, no codes. Ran up at a higher RPM and everything sounded good. Took down the street and back and noted on throttle up I hear a clinging sound that goes away quickly, but everthing accels smoothly, got back to the driveway (2 min drive up street and back) and the engine Vibrated, choked and stalled. Got P1017 fault "No DTC definition found). More to follow... Troubleshooting mode. Suggestions, much appreciated.
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      06-29-2014, 06:11 PM   #21
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Started again, rough start seemed like it was going to cut off. RPM spiking from 600 to 2000 back and forth quickly (I'm not sure if this is "Limp mode"), but nonetheless its sporadically fluxing up and down like crazy. Turned engine off, now I have 4 codes: P0223, P1624, P1017, & P1417. They seem to all relate to air/fuel, mostly air. I think I'll take a look and clean the air sensor on the box. Checked all connections, they all seem solid. P0223 seems to correspond to the gas pedal sensor, however I was reading somewhere that this may be thermostat related, anyone know of this? Thermostat related problems seem more probable to me because I had to change a water line (top hose to engine from radiator. Added coolant, turned heater on to let water into engine, topped off. I noted yesterday on my first successful start after 5-10 mins of running, I heard a clunk sound, not very loud as I poked my head out the driver side door looking to the hood I saw that the fan cut off. I thought this was weird because the coolant was getting very hot 190 degrees. Anyone know what to make of all these codes?
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      06-29-2014, 09:59 PM   #22
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Hi David,

Sorry for the tardy reply. It's a long weekend up here in the north.

You may be getting the thermostat faults due to an air lock in the coolant system. There is a specific bleed procedure for the cooling system.

-Undo the coolant vent screw
-top off coolant until coolant comes out of the vent hose.
-re-install vent screw

At this point it is a good idea to place a charger on your car.

-turn on ignition/engine off
-set your heat setting all the way to max (a/c off)
-set your fan setting to the lowest setting (setting 1)
-depress the gas pedal all the way and hold it there for 10 seconds.

This sequence will activate your water pump and begin to purge any air in the system. This procedure will run from 10-12 minutes. Thats why I say place the vehicle on a charger.

Now the P1017 code I believe is an Eccentric shaft sensor implausible signal fault. This happens when the sensor internally cracks and starts allowing oil to seep into the connection pins of the sensor. You can check if this is happening by just popping off the sensor connector and seeing of there is ANY oil in the Eccentric shaft sensor connector.

As for the other 2 codes that you have seem to be throttle faults. As you said in an earlier post, you did not take off the intake manifold, so I cannot see you knocking off the throttle body connector. However Just check all your engine harness connections that were taken off when the valve cover was removed. Perhaps there is a connector that is at home, but not all the way in. Also check for any wire damage just to be safe. With that being said, I am going to lean toward the eccentric shaft sensor fault to be the reasons for these faults.

The only crappy thing is, you're going to have to re&re the valve cover again to replace the shaft sensor.

Let me know how it goes, hopefully the coolant bleed procedure will help clear the t-stat fault. Also let me know what condition your shaft sensor is.
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