E90Post
 


Bimmer Retrofit
 
BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > NA Engine (non-turbo) / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications > Tech Info: E90 330i N52 Three-Stage Intake Manifold



Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      12-16-2006, 01:56 AM   #23
ksfrogman
Major General
 
ksfrogman's Avatar
 
Drives: E90 330i 6MT
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Torrance, CA

Posts: 6,751
iTrader: (12)

Garage List
2006 330i  [0.00]
2006 330i  [0.00]
Send a message via AIM to ksfrogman
Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Ur Avg 3
yup according to wat it really is, thats all u really need to do
and like richp said in another thread, it seems like magic, but thats basically all u need to make ur 325 a 330. someone has to try this
im suprised that this isnt one of the most talked about things on this forum.... ppl w/ 325's are trying to get 5 ponies from expensive intakes and other softwares, when this could potentially boost up to 245 ponies, thats 40 increase. ahh i wish, i would try it in a heartbeat if i had the money, but i heard the 330 programming (chip) is hard to attain?
Makes me wonder if any BMW dealership would actually flash a 325i with 330i programming. I bet no one would be willing to accept the perceived risk and responsibility for possible engine damage. Perhaps a DME reflash from a tuner would take care of thiis problem?
__________________
ksfrogman is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      12-29-2006, 10:57 AM   #24
ndahbar
Private First Class
 
ndahbar's Avatar
 
Drives: BMW 530i
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: MA

Posts: 112
iTrader: (0)

Tech posts like this are great! Thanks. Very interesting. Where does one obtain more info like this? I'd love to see a lot more, no matter how deeply technical it is
ndahbar is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      12-29-2006, 11:55 AM   #25
KL2DC
Moderator
 
KL2DC's Avatar
 
Drives: E90 328i, E85 Z4 3.0i
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: DC Metro

Posts: 17,750
iTrader: (22)

Garage List
2011 E90 328i  [0.00]
2006 E85 Z4 3.0i  [0.00]
Send a message via MSN to KL2DC
Another great tech post...thanks ksfrogman, I found these very interesting to read. We need to start a compilation and sticky these tech bits.

As a 325i owner and after having read this post its quite disheartening to hear the lengths BMW went to detune/compromise this engine's output. I definitely feel shortchanged I just wish we had the high output N52B25 rather than the low output N52B30 in our cars. At least the 2.5 is at the top of its game
__________________

Official DC Metro Registry - Current, New & Prospective Area Members Roll Call!
KL2DC is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      12-29-2006, 11:58 AM   #26
RichP
Major
 
RichP's Avatar
 
Drives: V-Power
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Michigan

Posts: 1,049
iTrader: (4)

We shall know eventually if it will work...I will leave him unnamed, but a fellow E90er has taken my manifold and is going to attempt the swap next month.
__________________
RichP is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      12-29-2006, 12:49 PM   #27
SE3P_to_E90
Banned
 
Drives: E90 Msport + E83 Msport
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: MD

Posts: 3,035
iTrader: (29)

Send a message via AIM to SE3P_to_E90
instead of getting a 330i chip, what if you went technik or evotech w/ the 330i tuning?
SE3P_to_E90 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      12-29-2006, 01:50 PM   #28
Socom
Major General
 
Drives: 2010 335D
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Atl.

Posts: 5,163
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by KL2DC
As a 325i owner and after having read this post its quite disheartening to hear the lengths BMW went to detune/compromise this engine's output. I definitely feel shortchanged I just wish we had the high output N52B25 rather than the low output N52B30 in our cars. At least the 2.5 is at the top of its game
Do u really feel that way? It's not like you didn't have the option to buy the 330.

I agree, the technical info is really worth it's weight in gold, but to sacrifice warranty for the sake of a few hp, doesn't make sense to me.
Socom is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      12-29-2006, 02:56 PM   #29
txusa03
Major General
 
Drives: TS330iPPSP6MT
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Planet Earth

Posts: 6,567
iTrader: (2)

nice find...I am still trying to figure out where on the engine these pieces of drawings/pics are located. Eventho, I dont understand 99.9% of what I just read or seen in the pics, at least it help me stay awake.
__________________
under construction!
txusa03 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-12-2007, 01:02 PM   #30
RichP
Major
 
RichP's Avatar
 
Drives: V-Power
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Michigan

Posts: 1,049
iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ksfrogman
Makes me wonder if any BMW dealership would actually flash a 325i with 330i programming.
The 325 ECU will not take the 330 programming. When I was working on this project, I had every BMW computer at my disposal, and the 325 ECU could not be fully reprogrammed. (Yes, I know they are the same PN)

I think a proper 330 ECU is needed. Or, a tuner creates some very custom software.
__________________
RichP is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      01-12-2007, 07:14 PM   #31
Not Ur Avg 3
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Not Ur Avg 3's Avatar
 
Drives: 06' 325i
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Dallas, TX

Posts: 1,869
iTrader: (3)

Garage List
2006 325i  [0.00]
Send a message via AIM to Not Ur Avg 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by SE3P_to_E90
instead of getting a 330i chip, what if you went technik or evotech w/ the 330i tuning?
good question
wats the answer????
along wit the intake manifold swap, instead of getting the regular 330ecu, wat if u get an aftermarket 330 ecu, wudnt that give us more than just the power upgrade to the 330? like even a bit more ponies?

but although a good question, i think we first gotta see if the regular 330 ecu works out... even if teh aftermarket 330ecu thing could possibly work, the reg 330ecu is already pusing the 325is engine (pretty high output), an aftermarket ecu would maybe be pushing the 325's engine too mmuch, and it might not be able to handle that much power, but i really am in no position to back that up, just a guess.
Not Ur Avg 3 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      01-12-2007, 07:29 PM   #32
ksfrogman
Major General
 
ksfrogman's Avatar
 
Drives: E90 330i 6MT
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Torrance, CA

Posts: 6,751
iTrader: (12)

Garage List
2006 330i  [0.00]
2006 330i  [0.00]
Send a message via AIM to ksfrogman
Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Ur Avg 3
good question
wats the answer????
along wit the intake manifold swap, instead of getting the regular 330ecu, wat if u get an aftermarket 330 ecu, wudnt that give us more than just the power upgrade to the 330? like even a bit more ponies?

but although a good question, i think we first gotta see if the regular 330 ecu works out... even if teh aftermarket 330ecu thing could possibly work, the reg 330ecu is already pusing the 325is engine (pretty high output), an aftermarket ecu would maybe be pushing the 325's engine too mmuch, and it might not be able to handle that much power, but i really am in no position to back that up, just a guess.
Well, to my knowledge, an aftermarket ECU does not exist. The Evotech uses your own DME (Digital Motor Electronics) unit--i.e., ECU--then reflashes it with modified software. Think of your ECU as a programmable EPROM.

That's interesting what RichP said about the 325i ECU not taking the 330i programming. The next step might be to call the recyclers (e.g., Bavarian Auto Recycling--which by the way I would never do business with again--or other salvage places) and get a 330i DME off a wrecked E90.
__________________
ksfrogman is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      01-24-2007, 11:02 AM   #33
Mixx2000
New Member
 
Drives: 1992 GVR4
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Greensboro, NC

Posts: 15
iTrader: (1)

Hey guys, JD here from Crown BMW. I thought I'd chime in to clear up "some" of the confusion surrounding the 330/325 intake manifold topic. I dont have alot of time, so I'll just list some facts that might answer a few questions.

- The 330/328/325 ECU is the same for all three cars. As some have mentioned it's the programming thats different.

- The 330/325 share the same Automatic Transmission (which I would think should be more prone to faults and problems than it's Manual counterparts).

- The 325, 328, 330, as well as later six cylinder E60's all have the same N52 engine. The X3, X5, Z4, and earlier E60's all have the M54 engine.

- The 325, 328, and 330 are ALL 3 liters. The DISA intake manifold is pretty much the only difference.


In theory, you would only have to swap in the 3-Stage DISA 330i Intake to your 325 or 328 (325's and 328's have the same engine wiring harness as the 330, so the electrical connections for the DISA system are alreay there). The nearly impossible part is getting a Dealership to: 1.) Even consider doing this in the first place, and 2.) Further getting BMW to respond to a PUMA case asking them to write a new "Vehicle Order" software, so the car will now "think" its a 330. Which brings on a slew of EPA regulation issues.

So is it possible? I dont know. I dont even know if BMW can write new software, so But now you have more information to speculate over. Have fun.
Mixx2000 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-24-2007, 11:53 AM   #34
voltron1011
Colonel
 
voltron1011's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 135i, FJR-1300
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Wiesbaden

Posts: 2,912
iTrader: (2)

Great info KS...

I've heard through various sources that all BMW's parts are hardcoded to their VIN's... So, even if you found a 330i ecu and put it into a 325, it would still act like act like a 325i. I'm not sure exactly how it works, or if it's even true or not.
Our cars have been out for almost 2 years now, and I'm really surprised that no aftermarket company has cracked this.
voltron1011 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-24-2007, 01:21 PM   #35
porksoda
Enlisted Member
 
Drives: 530i
Join Date: May 2006
Location: GTA

Posts: 43
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ksfrogman View Post

My theory is that without the DISA actuators (i.e., 3-stage differentiated intake manifold), engine management via MSV70 would have to be mapped differently to optimize the delivery of power throughout all RPM ranges, and perhaps to comply with fuel consumption and emissions objectives. The presence of resonating, overshoot and collector pipes all work in concert to maximize power output during upper engine speed ranges. However, without the actuator valves (as in the case of the 325i) to close off the pressure flow through collateral channels at lower engine speeds, engine efficiency and performance would probably be compromised at lower rpms. Too much pressure would be passed on to the next cylinder in the firing order--i.e., it might "flood" that cylinder. In order to compensate for this problem, fuel injection control, valve attenuation control (VANOS) or combination of any of the MSV70 tasks listed in the preceding paragraph are probably changed for the US 325i (vs the 330i). This could explain why the peak output of the US 325i is lower than that of the US 330i in spite of using the same engine.

Does this make sense?

Excellent info i was always wondering how the system worked as lot of other de cars use dual stage but three stage bmw has done a great job putting in actuators as i have seen a lot of them mechanical ways of letting more in at specific rpms to get the powerband going smoothly.
I think the key as you said in the quote i grabbed is the collective "concert" of the 3 stage throughout the rpm range maintaining pressure, volume and delivering at key times... offcourse the ecu would have to be programmed to be aware of this intake method to take full advantage of this... explains the smooth range in the 330.

porksoda is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-24-2007, 04:13 PM   #36
esbezee92
Lieutenant
 
esbezee92's Avatar
 
Drives: Montego 328i Coupe
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: SoCal

Posts: 500
iTrader: (1)

if someone could clear this up for me it would be great, what i dont understand is why once you have the 3-stage you couldnt get some kind of aftermarket ecu made for a 325 or 328 to 330 conversion

and on another note would a 328 with 3-stage intake be more powerful than a 330 because didnt they increase compression or something to that effect
esbezee92 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      01-24-2007, 05:43 PM   #37
jasper
Private First Class
 
Drives: 2002 325i
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: San Ramon, CA

Posts: 106
iTrader: (0)

My understanding is that it would work if you put a 3-stage manifold on a car that came with the single stage version; however, nobody has successfully modified the software on the ECU but there shouldn't be a problem if you swap the ECU with one from a 330i, assuming that doesn't cause other problems...

my understanding is that the 328i only has the single stage intake
jasper is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      02-13-2007, 10:08 PM   #38
FinnVette
Private
 
FinnVette's Avatar
 
Drives: 325xit & Corvette C6
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: 150 miles south of Arctic Circle

Posts: 80
iTrader: (0)

Hey guys! There seem to be number of members that are interested in this topic so I thought that I will chime in.

I'm the lucky one who got the 330i 3-Stage manifold from RichP. The installation was relatively easy. The car runs basically the same, maybe little more low end torque, but top end is the same. As a side note, I'm not one of the guys that can feel a SOTP difference from an air filter...

However because the car runs without problem, it's my belief that 325i ECU has some control over the manifold "straight from the box". If the manifold would be stuck in the stage low or medium RPM stage you would definitely loose some top end power. My perception of little stronger low end, does not lead me thinking it would be stuck in the high RPM mode either.

However you need the 330i programming to get any benefit from this mod, otherwise it's useless. And that's the tricky part. Evotech (trough Creative) said that they can flash my ECU with their 330i SW. By now they have had the ECU for 3 weeks (was supposed to take a week) and I'm about to loose my faith on them. I hope they prove me wrong...
FinnVette is offline   Finland
0
Reply With Quote
      02-13-2007, 10:45 PM   #39
RichP
Major
 
RichP's Avatar
 
Drives: V-Power
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Michigan

Posts: 1,049
iTrader: (4)

I hope for the best FinnVette with the project; they are fools if they let this go. They would have 325 owners lining up if they could provide the sofware aspect of it.

As regards to your post; I am not sure about the level of control the 325 ECU has. It definitely checks and zeros out the things at startup (you can feel the ECU move them if you have your hand on them) However, the ECU i think defaults them to both be "open" which is the same as them not being there, and therefore the same as the 325 manifold (as I have posted earlier, VERY early production 325s have the same EXACT manifold as the 330, with knockout plates where the two actuators would go in a 330)
__________________
RichP is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      02-13-2007, 11:30 PM   #40
ksfrogman
Major General
 
ksfrogman's Avatar
 
Drives: E90 330i 6MT
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Torrance, CA

Posts: 6,751
iTrader: (12)

Garage List
2006 330i  [0.00]
2006 330i  [0.00]
Send a message via AIM to ksfrogman
Yes, good luck FinnVette, I knew you would chime in when you were ready. I too hope that Creative doesn't leave you hanging for too long. You may want to call them. It's easier to put aside a PM, IM or email, but if you call, you will speak with a person.

I am hopeful that all will go well, and you will unleash the true potential of your 325i. I have a lot of respect for what you are doing, and it will benefit a lot of E90 325i owners here.
__________________
ksfrogman is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      02-14-2007, 12:33 AM   #41
Not Ur Avg 3
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Not Ur Avg 3's Avatar
 
Drives: 06' 325i
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Dallas, TX

Posts: 1,869
iTrader: (3)

Garage List
2006 325i  [0.00]
Send a message via AIM to Not Ur Avg 3
sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet
this could end sooo well
if it works out
325 owners can get this 3 stage manifold
and then get their ecu flashed by evotechs 330i software

so one question for u guys.
since this guy is getting his 325i the 3stagemanifold and a upgraded 330 software, this means that his car would be running like a chipped 330i and not just stock, cuz he not using the stock 330i ecu.
__________________
Perfection In The Making...
Not Ur Avg 3 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      02-14-2007, 12:51 AM   #42
esbezee92
Lieutenant
 
esbezee92's Avatar
 
Drives: Montego 328i Coupe
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: SoCal

Posts: 500
iTrader: (1)

what im wondering is where are all these 325s that are without a doubt going to be lining up to get this (price depending of course) going to get a three stage intake.

also is my logic off by thinking that this should work in a 328 as well

thanks
esbezee92 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      02-14-2007, 11:16 AM   #43
FinnVette
Private
 
FinnVette's Avatar
 
Drives: 325xit & Corvette C6
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: 150 miles south of Arctic Circle

Posts: 80
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Ur Avg 3 View Post
so one question for u guys.
since this guy is getting his 325i the 3stagemanifold and a upgraded 330 software, this means that his car would be running like a chipped 330i and not just stock, cuz he not using the stock 330i ecu.
That's basically correct, however you don't have the 330i flap in the exhaust.
FinnVette is offline   Finland
0
Reply With Quote
      02-14-2007, 11:20 AM   #44
FinnVette
Private
 
FinnVette's Avatar
 
Drives: 325xit & Corvette C6
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: 150 miles south of Arctic Circle

Posts: 80
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by esbezee92 View Post

also is my logic off by thinking that this should work in a 328 as well

thanks
I think so too.
FinnVette is offline   Finland
0
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:24 PM.




e90post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST