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      03-09-2017, 05:39 PM   #1
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Aquamist HFS-4

I have the HFS-4 that I run with my Cobb Protune and I wanted to see if there was a way to see if the meth is running properly. Also, I run dual .8mm nozzles, but had .7mm prior. What's better?

1.) It clearly sprays ( I know this since the shop forgot to transfer an O-ring) and I saw meth all over the CP one night.
2.) The gauge reads accordingly in car and the tank clearly empties after multiple runs.

The reason I want to double check is that when I first logged with my original tuner, he seemed to think it wasn't spraying and my logs were showing that I was getting almost zero benefit from the meth since it was boosting the same as 93. Any more and it would correct like crazy.

Below is a recent log and I am only in the initial stages, so we will be upping boost. My 93 tapped out at 17.5lbs before it started correcting a lot so I assume meth should bring me to around 19.5lbs.

http://www.datazap.me/u/f30driver22/...3-5-6-7-8-9-15

Thanks.
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      03-09-2017, 05:51 PM   #2
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The only thing methanol does is increase octane and decrease intake air temps. (It also aids in fueling).

I notice your logs don't have intake air temps, so that would be the first thing to start adding into future logs.

Secondly, you should not expect an increase in boost because you spray methanol, at least nothing significant.

You need to up the boost in your tune and your ignition timing to reap the power benefits of methanol injection, that is the whole point of it. If you are just spraying methanol for IAT suppression then you can just leave the tune alone and use a small nozzle. At that point if the tune is unchanged, you should expect full timing (within the tune), virtually no timing corrections and reduced Intake air temps.

If the flow gauge shows flow, timing looks good and your intake air temps barely rise, methanol should be spraying adequately.

Let me know if I can clear up anything else for you.
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      03-09-2017, 07:18 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff@TopGearSolutions View Post
The only thing methanol does is increase octane and decrease intake air temps. (It also aids in fueling).

I notice your logs don't have intake air temps, so that would be the first thing to start adding into future logs.

Secondly, you should not expect an increase in boost because you spray methanol, at least nothing significant.

You need to up the boost in your tune and your ignition timing to reap the power benefits of methanol injection, that is the whole point of it. If you are just spraying methanol for IAT suppression then you can just leave the tune alone and use a small nozzle. At that point if the tune is unchanged, you should expect full timing (within the tune), virtually no timing corrections and reduced Intake air temps.

If the flow gauge shows flow, timing looks good and your intake air temps barely rise, methanol should be spraying adequately.

Let me know if I can clear up anything else for you.
Jeff-

As always thanks for the help, appreciated. I will admit I don't know the ins and outs so I guess I was wrong to assume increased boost.

I will add the the intake air temps and monitor those and work with my tuner to increase ignition timing and boost slightly.

Will post back with a new log. Thanks!
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      03-11-2017, 10:59 PM   #4
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Added throttle body air temp, looks to drop when it first sprays which seems to say the meth is spraying properly.

http://datazap.me/u/f30driver22/bq93...og=0&data=4-16
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      03-12-2017, 05:20 PM   #5
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I've been running the HFS4 kit and I have been having problems with misfires. It was ordered directly from the factory In the U.K. And pre-programmed for the BMW. I think the ambient temperature affect on the methanol kits. If it's too cold and I have misfires. I have no problem running 100% in meth but it makes me a little nervous. I have a single .7 mm nozzle. What percent methanol are you running and what are the outside temperatures?
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      03-12-2017, 05:30 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by n54335imeth View Post
Added throttle body air temp, looks to drop when it first sprays which seems to say the meth is spraying properly.

http://datazap.me/u/f30driver22/bq93...og=0&data=4-16
Also need more data on your other actual ignition timing from the other Cylinders since Cyl 1 is the quietest. You can probably take out of some of the fueling stuff for now since fuel seems to be OK.

I used to run 20 PSI tapering to 16 by red line with 10 Degrees ignition ramping up to 12 or so by red line. But yea the adjustments of boost and ignition will come from the tuner.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flexinator View Post
I've been running the HFS4 kit and I have been having problems with misfires. It was ordered directly from the factory In the U.K. And pre-programmed for the BMW. I think the ambient temperature affect on the methanol kits. If it's too cold and I have misfires. I have no problem running 100% in meth but it makes me a little nervous. I have a single .7 mm nozzle. What percent methanol are you running and what are the outside temperatures?
How cold?

I've ran as low as 15F with a M10 Nozzle (not sure what that translates to in Aquamist sizes but I'm sure you can google the CC's and compare). As much as 90% methanol.

It may just be an indication you need new spark plugs or coils, how old are those?
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      03-12-2017, 08:44 PM   #7
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The plugs are new and gapped to 18/1000" I'm having the coils checked this week. At 50+ degrees it's fine but any colder I get misfires in cylinders 3+4 and the reduced engine power and limp mode starts. I'm FBO and it has never done this without the meth on. Can the coils alone cause misfires just with the meth? It runs great otherwise and it's 75% meth. The cc/min are appropriate for the 3l engine size and capacity. Any further advice is really appreciated.

Last edited by flexinator; 03-12-2017 at 08:54 PM.
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      03-12-2017, 09:40 PM   #8
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Post a log if you can... when it's cold/with the more aggressive tune.

Chris
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      03-13-2017, 08:29 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flexinator View Post
I've been running the HFS4 kit and I have been having problems with misfires. It was ordered directly from the factory In the U.K. And pre-programmed for the BMW. I think the ambient temperature affect on the methanol kits. If it's too cold and I have misfires. I have no problem running 100% in meth but it makes me a little nervous. I have a single .7 mm nozzle. What percent methanol are you running and what are the outside temperatures?
I've never had a misfire, but I do get a ton of corrections with anything slightly more aggressive than my 93 map. Dual .8mm on boost juice 50/50
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      03-13-2017, 08:32 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff@TopGearSolutions View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by n54335imeth View Post
Added throttle body air temp, looks to drop when it first sprays which seems to say the meth is spraying properly.

http://datazap.me/u/f30driver22/bq93...og=0&data=4-16
Also need more data on your other actual ignition timing from the other Cylinders since Cyl 1 is the quietest. You can probably take out of some of the fueling stuff for now since fuel seems to be OK.

I used to run 20 PSI tapering to 16 by red line with 10 Degrees ignition ramping up to 12 or so by red line. But yea the adjustments of boost and ignition will come from the tuner.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flexinator View Post
I've been running the HFS4 kit and I have been having problems with misfires. It was ordered directly from the factory In the U.K. And pre-programmed for the BMW. I think the ambient temperature affect on the methanol kits. If it's too cold and I have misfires. I have no problem running 100% in meth but it makes me a little nervous. I have a single .7 mm nozzle. What percent methanol are you running and what are the outside temperatures?
How cold?

I've ran as low as 15F with a M10 Nozzle (not sure what that translates to in Aquamist sizes but I'm sure you can google the CC's and compare). As much as 90% methanol.

It may just be an indication you need new spark plugs or coils, how old are those?
Interesting. Let me see how it looks with the timing parameters added in. I would hope I can run 19 at least. 30k on the clock. Fresh sparks, plugs, valve cover gasket, pcv valve, carbon cleaning.

I've also run my meth (50:50) in 20 degrees or so with no misfire. Would say it's your coils/plugs. Could check the misfire code
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      03-13-2017, 08:34 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flexinator View Post
The plugs are new and gapped to 18/1000" I'm having the coils checked this week. At 50+ degrees it's fine but any colder I get misfires in cylinders 3+4 and the reduced engine power and limp mode starts. I'm FBO and it has never done this without the meth on. Can the coils alone cause misfires just with the meth? It runs great otherwise and it's 75% meth. The cc/min are appropriate for the 3l engine size and capacity. Any further advice is really appreciated.
I'm no expert but my shop has done multiple aquamist systems and recommended dual .8mm. I had dual .7mm also which I may swap back in

When I ordered from howerton engineering it made you select 3 nozzles so not sure :
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      03-13-2017, 09:47 AM   #12
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http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum2/vbu...ead.php?t=1972

Found this also, could help
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      03-30-2017, 11:01 AM   #13
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http://www.datazap.me/u/f30driver22/...og=1&data=4-16

Been a while since I've had no time with my new job. I played with the P/I-R and GAIN settings on the controller, which has made a vast improvement. Initial parameters from my shop had the car barely spraying based on IDC, whereas this car responds better to BOOST dependency.

Anyways the temps look to stay consistent, but I'm not sure if it should be lower with meth. The car logs cleaner at 19.5 peak vs 18ish on my older map that had lower boost and original Aquamist settings (that had tons of timing corrections), so I would say the meth is spraying correctly.

What do you guys think?
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      03-30-2017, 11:28 AM   #14
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Your Cobb tune is targeting a specific PSI of boost and your car will either achieve that or it will throw a code. Same with over-boost, it will throw a code if the boost is consistently not staying on target.

IMO there are 2 ways to "tune" with meth:

Adjust the tune for no-meth, and then add meth for a safety margin of additional octane and cooler charge temps. If the meth system ever does not work, no harm no foul.

Adjust the tune with the meth running, it will allow you more boost/timing and you can even use meth for additional fueling if you are running out of fuel. The downside is that you are now dependent on meth and a meth failure can cost you an engine since your tune cannot be supported without the meth. Adding fueling with CP injection is not the best for fuel distribution and will lead to leaner/richer cylinders which is less than optimal.
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      03-30-2017, 06:35 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Velocity26 View Post
Your Cobb tune is targeting a specific PSI of boost and your car will either achieve that or it will throw a code. Same with over-boost, it will throw a code if the boost is consistently not staying on target.

IMO there are 2 ways to "tune" with meth:

Adjust the tune for no-meth, and then add meth for a safety margin of additional octane and cooler charge temps. If the meth system ever does not work, no harm no foul.

Adjust the tune with the meth running, it will allow you more boost/timing and you can even use meth for additional fueling if you are running out of fuel. The downside is that you are now dependent on meth and a meth failure can cost you an engine since your tune cannot be supported without the meth. Adding fueling with CP injection is not the best for fuel distribution and will lead to leaner/richer cylinders which is less than optimal.

Thank you for your response. I had debated just tuning for 93octane and then having the meth come on only for cooling properties, but I was not sure it was working. My tuner got my 93 to tap out at 17.8 before it started correcting so we had to run meth specific maps to see that it was effective. Now that I am peaking at 19.5 I can for sure say it is, as 93 would never handle that.

As far as the meth failure, the aquamist HFS-4 come with a failsafe that dumps boost when there is no flow, but I do watch the tank levels very often.
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      05-17-2017, 09:04 PM   #16
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What rpms do you have the system start to spray? I've been adjusting the IDC and gain too. The gain was set midline by the factory and its almost all the way down now. The spray was midway on the idc/boost scale. It's now fully toward the idc. It begins spraying at 2500rpms. I consistently had cylinder 3&4 misfires in winter with a 0.8mm nozzle but it now functions will a 0.9mm nozzle in summer. Does this sound reasonable?
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      05-18-2017, 03:39 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flexinator View Post
What rpms do you have the system start to spray? I've been adjusting the IDC and gain too. The gain was set midline by the factory and its almost all the way down now. The spray was midway on the idc/boost scale. It's now fully toward the idc. It begins spraying at 2500rpms. I consistently had cylinder 3&4 misfires in winter with a 0.8mm nozzle but it now functions will a 0.9mm nozzle in summer. Does this sound reasonable?
I don't have the car anymore, but last I remember, I had the following.

THRES (start to spray about 12 psi):
Basically turned all the way counter clockwise. Think 8 o clock.

GAIN (how much spray):
Had this set at about 1 o clock. Not far off default of noon

PI/R (Based on IDC or boost):
Best for me was 60:40. So more towards boost at about 10-11 o clock.

These worked best for spray. And how much meth my car used. Timing corrections cleaned up great wth ******** as my tuner. He got me at 19.5 psi on a nice 45 degree day, basically no timing pulls.

I noticed gain too much past noon made the car pull back. Too much left wasn't enough. Noon to 1 is best. THRES at noon shut off my spray. So more left is better. Leave PI/R closer to 11 and that should be the best. I'm no pro but this all brought me from months of horrid timing corrections to keep on a 750cc bike so it must've worked lol
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