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      04-29-2010, 09:26 AM   #45
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You fellas in AZ still have a tough time with all them Canadians coming down there, stealin' yer jobs, yer women, and yer beer?
Do the Canadians really like OUR beer? Wow. I was not aware of that until now.
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      04-29-2010, 09:31 AM   #46
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...I'll clarify for you. The new law will be enforced and apply to ALL illegal immigrants (not the "Mexicans", as you hinted) here in AZ for the next 20+ years, or however long we need it.
This debate is pointless.

The AZ law won't be enforced for the same reason that employment related laws are not enforced -- the business interests want the illegals in order to keep labor costs down. Of course there will be a lot of noise, and a few token arrests, but the big picture will not change.
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      04-29-2010, 10:00 AM   #47
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This debate is pointless.

The AZ law won't be enforced for the same reason that employment related laws are not enforced -- the business interests want the illegals in order to keep labor costs down. Of course there will be a lot of noise, and a few token arrests, but the big picture will not change.

You say the debate is pointless, then continue to debate by making a prediction.

If you don't want to debate, then stop with the predictions. How about if we just let the law take effect and see what really happens.

Last edited by BlueZ4AZ; 04-29-2010 at 11:07 AM.
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      04-29-2010, 01:05 PM   #48
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Stalin found this logic to be very useful.

All we need to do is to make it impossible to work here illegally. Which means that all we need to do is enforce existing employment laws. No jobs, no illegals. A few employers in jail, the price of meat goes up 10 cents/pound and a few DINKS have to do their own yard work. Done.

We don't need to be stopping people on the street to demand their papers as if this is Germany in 1937 or the USSR in 1952. The TSA is bad enough, I don't want that mindset in my daily life.

I don't understand this comparison. They have crossed the boarder illegally and need to be sent back. Bottom line. If they are here legally they have nothing to worry about. 70% of the country is behind AZ.
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      04-29-2010, 01:28 PM   #49
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I don't understand this comparison. They have crossed the boarder illegally and need to be sent back. Bottom line. If they are here legally they have nothing to worry about. 70% of the country is behind AZ.
This is the truth.
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      04-29-2010, 01:41 PM   #50
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I don't understand this comparison. They have crossed the boarder illegally and need to be sent back. Bottom line. If they are here legally they have nothing to worry about. 70% of the country is behind AZ.
I agree that they need to go back. Now. And they would not be here, and they would leave, if they could not work. So all that we have to do is enforce existing employment laws. It is illegal for a company to knowingly hire someone who does not have the right to work in the United States. It is illegal to use a false Social Security number.

This is how every other industrialized country keeps from having a large population of illegal immigrants. It works, and it works well. It certainly works better than trying to arrest and deport them one cop/one immigrant at a time.

But while 70% of the country might be behind AZ, the people who really control things, the business interests that fund both political parties, do not want anything to get in the way of their cheap labor pool. That is what this is all about, and that is why there was no meaningful reform even when the Republicans had both Houses of Congress and the White House.

And if you don't see the dangers to our society of having police randomly demanding to see "your papers", and hauling you off to jail when you don't have them; well I am speechless.
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      04-29-2010, 02:13 PM   #51
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And if you don't see the dangers to our society of having police randomly demanding to see "your papers", and hauling you off to jail when you don't have them; well I am speechless.
Spin it however you want, but just because you invision some danger in this, does not mean it's going to turn out dangerous and therefore we all need to jump on your bandwagon.

You are NOT going to change anyone's mind who is already a proponent of the new law. The sooner you realize that the sooner you'll stop debating the same point over and over.

This may come as a complete and utter shock to you, but not everyone sees it they way you do!!!!
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      04-29-2010, 02:21 PM   #52
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And if you don't see the dangers to our society of having police randomly demanding to see "your papers", and hauling you off to jail when you don't have them; well I am speechless.
Carrying "your papers" with you seems like a small inconvenience to try to help curb a problem that a majority of the citizens are trying to rectify, within the bounds set by the Constitution.

How about we see how it works before jumping to conclusions? Sure, you're right about curbing the employment of the illegals, but realistically, do you think a law strictly enforcing that is anything we'll see? I doubt it.

I'm all for "whatever it takes". This may not solve it, but if it encourages further steps of action against the problem, then it has done its job.

On a bit of a different tangent, I'm going to puke if I hear one more person mention racial profiling when we're talking about "illegal alien criminals" in the SW United States or terrorists.
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      04-29-2010, 03:11 PM   #53
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I wonder if all these people that are bitching about this being unconstitutional that illegals are now going to have to "show your papers" are the same people that are unhappy that the government in 4 years is going to demand that all US citizens have to "Show your Papers" to prove you have healthcare.
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      04-29-2010, 06:22 PM   #54
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Oh no we don't want to do that. How about we make every Democrat and whoever else voted for Obama pay back the massive debt this guy is accumulating. We do need to make people accountable for their actions right?
Right after the repukes pay back the cost of the Iraq war> it's only right considering they were wrong about the weapons of mass destruction, no?
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      04-29-2010, 06:43 PM   #55
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How did this work out for California when they tried similar legislation?
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      04-29-2010, 09:33 PM   #56
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How did this work out for California when they tried similar legislation?
I don't think Cali ever had anything similar. They did vote to not extend benefits to illegal aliens, but that was overturned by the courts.

Arizona's approach may fare better, but not much. The problem with Cali's approach was that it left a population of people that would have no access to any aid or school. In theory these people would pick up and go back home, but most of you have no clue how much worse things are where they came from. The result is kids that have no food to eat and no education. In a sense you help cultivate a population of people ripe for crime and mayhem, which ends up costing us far more in the long run.

AZ's problem will be their subsequent inability to compete with other states as they will no longer have access to the low-cost workforce that the neighboring states will. The drug mules and similar ilk will not care and will continue business as usual.

I guess the upside would be a reduction in illegal immigrants and the cost savings that come with that.

That said, those savings may not be that great. They will also have to contend with a landslide of lawsuits and challenges to the law. Also, other states may see an influx of illegal immigrants and be forced to take similar actions making it fair game to stay in AZ.

In any case, the real answer is to keep people from coming into this country illegally in the first place, a job our federal government has failed at miserably (under both dems and repubs for those of you with short memory). That is going to take a more complex response then just sending the military to the border. We need to reform immigration laws and do something about the folks already here (many needed to sustain our existing infrastructure). That's complex and unfortunately, complex is not something most Americans can handle.
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      04-29-2010, 09:37 PM   #57
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Funny how "illegals" automatically equate to "Mexico". There are other races/ethnicity that are here illegally.
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Ok so if we magically close off jobs to illegals, you think they'll stop coming across the border?

Even without jobs, their situation would take a lot longer to reach a point where they'd feel "better off" back at home in Mexico. There'll be a point of equilibrium, which we would be well above for a while, even after the jobs are cut off. Of course, this is all speculation, and it would be impossible to predict, but I don't think cutting off the jobs will put a halt to the issue, although I do believe it's possible that its net effects would be incredibly negative for everyone.

But, again, it's all speculation.
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      04-29-2010, 10:18 PM   #58
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Funny how "illegals" automatically equate to "Mexico". There are other races/ethnicity that are here illegally.
OMG seriously? I'm racist because I pointed out the obvious fact that the vast majority of the "illegals" in question here are Mexicans? Tired of the "racism" BS. Enough already. I don't care how taboo you think it is, most of the illegals in that area (a VAST majority) are Mexican. If you argue that, you're just an idiot.

Put the race card down and GET ON BOARD WITH THE REST OF THE COUNTRY THAT IS TRYING TO FIGURE OUT A WAY TO TREAD WATER THROUGH THIS ISSUE. Fuck.

We're so fucking busy either trying to be the victim or create victims that we can't make any progress. It's sickening.
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      04-29-2010, 10:40 PM   #59
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Don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say you are racist nor did I play the race card. Had you worded your words like you did in this post and clarified that it is the "vast majority" and not like your previous post of implied "all Mexicans=illegals", I wouldn't have pointed that out. Thanks for clarifying
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OMG seriously? I'm racist because I pointed out the obvious fact that the vast majority of the "illegals" in question here are Mexicans? Tired of the "racism" BS. Enough already. I don't care how taboo you think it is, most of the illegals in that area (a VAST majority) are Mexican. If you argue that, you're just an idiot.

Put the race card down and GET ON BOARD WITH THE REST OF THE COUNTRY THAT IS TRYING TO FIGURE OUT A WAY TO TREAD WATER THROUGH THIS ISSUE. Fuck.

We're so fucking busy either trying to be the victim or create victims that we can't make any progress. It's sickening.
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      04-29-2010, 10:51 PM   #60
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Don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say you are racist nor did I play the race card.
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Originally Posted by AiyahPK View Post
Funny how "illegals" automatically equate to "Mexico". There are other races/ethnicity that are here illegally.
in response to my quote:
Quote:
Even without jobs, their situation would take a lot longer to reach a point where they'd feel "better off" back at home in Mexico.
Sure, I admit, maybe I should have said "wherever they come from" instead of envisioning the scenario as it is for well over 95% of the illegals in question. So shoot me.

And that very much was the race card. Sorry; a spade's a spade, and that was a spade.

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Had you worded your words like you did in this post and clarified that it is the "vast majority" and not like your previous post of implied "all Mexicans=illegals", I wouldn't have pointed that out. Thanks for clarifying
Bull shit. Nowhere did I imply that someone of Mexican descent should be assumed to be illegal. Bleed your heart out elsewhere.
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      04-29-2010, 11:09 PM   #61
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Bull shit. Nowhere did I imply that someone of Mexican descent should be assumed to be illegal. Bleed your heart out elsewhere.
No, you didn't imply that someone of Mexican descent should be assumed to be illegal. You did, however, imply that illegals should be assumed to be Mexican:
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Ok so if we magically close off jobs to illegals, you think they'll stop coming across the border?

Even without jobs, their situation would take a lot longer to reach a point where they'd feel "better off" back at home in Mexico.
Illegals: they : back home in Mexico

Not starting a fight, I just wanted to merely point out that the immigration issue is not just an Mexican issue.
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      04-29-2010, 11:13 PM   #62
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Do the Canadians really like OUR beer? Wow. I was not aware of that until now.
Hey, we've got some really good small breweries.






...based off of foreign ways of brewing
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      04-30-2010, 12:32 AM   #63
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No, you didn't imply that someone of Mexican descent should be assumed to be illegal. You did, however, imply that illegals should be assumed to be Mexican:

Illegals: they : back home in Mexico

Not starting a fight, I just wanted to merely point out that the immigration issue is not just an Mexican issue.
Dude, think what you want. People like you are why we can't get shit done in this country. You'd rather argue over semantics and create victims than discuss what needs to be done to solve the problem.

If you think I'm racist, or if you think that my statement does indeed imply that ALL illegals are Mexicans, you're an idiot. And that's about the nicest way I can say it. Another internet warrior, arguing for the sake of arguing, so you can go to bed at night thinking you're "fighting the good fight" for those who can't do it for themselves....

And stop saying you weren't playing the race card. It's very evident that's what was going on. Do you need me to quote you again?
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      04-30-2010, 10:11 AM   #64
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I didn't read through every post but, when was the last time anybody ever read our constitution? The very 1st thing our federal government is responsible for is to protect our sovereignty & boarders. It's sad that we need to pass a new law to actually do something about a law that's already in place. Government BS bureaucracy at it's best I guess.... ::facepalm::
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      04-30-2010, 10:30 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by AiyahPK View Post
No, you didn't imply that someone of Mexican descent should be assumed to be illegal. You did, however, imply that illegals should be assumed to be Mexican:

Illegals: they : back home in Mexico

Not starting a fight, I just wanted to merely point out that the immigration issue is not just an Mexican issue.
This assumption is supported by statistics. Racism: Do you want to take the trash out? - No, I'll pay some Mexicans to do it.

Not racism: There are a lot of Mexican illegal immigrants in Arizona. In fact, the majority of illegal immigrants there are Mexican. Thefore, as the most affected group, Mexicans are the topic of discussion. Curb your instinct to point out biggotry, this isn't it.

I personally don't like the word "illegals".
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      04-30-2010, 10:48 AM   #66
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I didn't read through every post but, when was the last time anybody ever read our constitution? The very 1st thing our federal government is responsible for is to protect our sovereignty & boarders. It's sad that we need to pass a new law to actually do something about a law that's already in place. Government BS bureaucracy at it's best I guess.... ::facepalm::
Ever read a dictionary?
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