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      04-21-2010, 06:02 AM   #45
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Explanation of Mineral Etchings, courtesy of Meguire's...

Type I Water Spots - Mineral deposits sitting on top of the paint

Type I Water Spots are what Meguiar's refers to as Above Surface Bonded Contaminants. A Type I water spot is some type of deposit, often times a mineral deposit that was suspended in the water source to begin with, then after the water evaporated off the finish the mineral is left behind where it bonds to the finish usually in a circular or pattern or shape.


Removal:
First wash the car thoroughly using a quality car wash to remove any loose contaminants and to also remove any portion of the mineral deposit that has not yet bonded to the paint. After washing the car, dry the car to remove any standing water and to prevent further accumulation of Type I Water Spots.

Step 2: Clay the Paint. As you're rubbing the clay over the finish, the specialized abrasives will loosen and remove any deposits sitting on top of the paint and trap them into the clay and our clay will do this without instilling scratches into the paint.
Step 3: Clean the Paint with a Paint Cleaner

After claying the finish, re-inspect the affected areas, the paint should look smooth and clean as well as feel smooth like a piece of new glass.

Type II Water Spots - Mineral Etchings

These are below Surface Defects, that is these water marks are where the mineral deposits, (left after the water evaporated off the finish), actually etched into, or ate into the paint (a very scientific explanation there ). This is why the detailing clay did not completely remove these marks, it's because these marks are below the surface and detailing clay only removes contaminants sitting on top of the surface.




Removal:
If you discover Type II Water Spots in your car's finish, you can use a paint cleaner by hand such as Meguire's ScratchX (their suggestion - Anneka has never used this and can't recommend it) and the procedure outlined above in Step 3 for removing below surface etchings left by Type I Water Spots, or you can use a machine applied product to remove the water spot etchings using a machine polisher.
The goal is to remove just enough paint to level the upper most portions of the surface with the lowest depths of the defect you're trying to remove.

Original Source: Meguire's
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      04-21-2010, 06:24 AM   #46
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It's beginning to look like heat will get rid of some types of these marks - though a hairdryer is a bit extreme - but if it works!

Sometimes "technical claims and explanations can be over elaborate.

In quite a few of the "Studio" threads when the experts are describing what they have done, they use Aerospace 303 to treat the interior trim "to protect from fading caused by ultra-violet"

This has always puzzled me since I have known since High School science classes, that even a thin piece of paper will completely block UV rays. The car interior is completely surrounded by 4 or 6mm thick glass, so how in hell is the interior plastic going to degrade due to ultra violet - and the cars prepped in this way were NOT convertibles.

Edit: Just checked. The atmosphere blocks 98.7% of all UV and clear glass blocks 90% of UVA - the villain of the piece. I still think the claims stretch the point just a bit.
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      04-21-2010, 06:45 AM   #47
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Anneka, the link to meguirs was sufficient but thanks for typing it all up!!

I still dont get how the lacquer can become etched by water and really dont understand how something can get "under" it but hey ho...I am still not 100% sure what the spots on my car are, if it was below the surface etching how would heating them up remove them (not that I have tried yet).

I will keep you all posted, jingle68 and John320d, the chaps over at DW send their regards. One guy tried out the hair dryer and it worked for him. I'm waiting to see what others report back.

Once I have tried I will post back both here and on DW.

Oh BTW:

I tried Meguirs ScratchX and it didn't touch the marks...I will see how it goes. If heat is all that is required then maybe the sunny weather we're having will be enough to clear the marks.
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      04-21-2010, 08:02 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toxicnerve View Post
Anneka, the link to meguirs was sufficient but thanks for typing it all up!!

Oh BTW:

I tried Meguirs ScratchX and it didn't touch the marks...I will see how it goes. If heat is all that is required then maybe the sunny weather we're having will be enough to clear the marks.
... copy and paste

Fingers crossed that the heat will work, keep us posted.
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      04-21-2010, 08:43 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanQS View Post

Edit: Just checked. The atmosphere blocks 98.7% of all UV and clear glass blocks 90% of UVA - the villain of the piece. I still think the claims stretch the point just a bit.
OT but...

The atmosphere blocks 98.7% of UV coming from space (enough to fry us to a crisp) and then the glass blocks 90% of whats left

But car window glass only really blocks UVB, the one that gives you a Tan.

Low energy UVA still passes through to cause the ageing damage to plastics etc...


This water spots issue sounds a bit poor.

All the more reason to own a silver car that hides all these horrors!
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      04-21-2010, 08:44 AM   #50
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This exact same problem happened to my old Golf. I knew that it was caused by water getting under the lacquer as it appeared just after washing and was so bad that you could push the water bubble about under the lacquer. I didn't know what to do about it at the time, the hair dryer solution sounds good. Eventually the lacquer on my car blistered and started to peel like sun burn. Fortunately it was just the bonnet so I had it resprayed, the painter told me that the clear coat came off like wallpaper.

I'd be interested in knowing if there is any way that this can be prevented from happening in the first instance. Would applying a paint sealer or keeping the wax topped up stop the problem for happening?
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      04-21-2010, 09:08 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mowflow View Post
This exact same problem happened to my old Golf. I knew that it was caused by water getting under the lacquer as it appeared just after washing and was so bad that you could push the water bubble about under the lacquer. I didn't know what to do about it at the time, the hair dryer solution sounds good. Eventually the lacquer on my car blistered and started to peel like sun burn. Fortunately it was just the bonnet so I had it resprayed, the painter told me that the clear coat came off like wallpaper.

I'd be interested in knowing if there is any way that this can be prevented from happening in the first instance. Would applying a paint sealer or keeping the wax topped up stop the problem for happening?
WTF! This kind of thing should not be happening in the first place for us to prevent!!

If this is an issue of water getting UNDER the lacquer then I would contest that this is a serious paint defect and BMW should bloody well sort it! There is no way any manufacturer can justify this sort of issue...

Anneka, any thoughts on this? If this is the case I am not going to be best pleased to say the least...
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      04-21-2010, 09:51 AM   #52
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Lightbulb

toxicnerve that isn't water getting under the paint like mowflow describes on his old Golf. What he is saying sound like top coat was peeling on his car, probably as a result of which the water was getting under the lacquer/top coat. It’s very common on older cars.

I am not a pro detailer or a chemist, but I've been detailing as a hobby and attended a few advanced machine polishing classes. The thing on your car is similar to bird shit staining paintwork, it’s the composition of minerals in hard water. It happens around the house like water spots in the kitchen sink, shower, or the kettle. This is partially the reason why car shampoos products often say do not wash in direct sunlight etc.

Something somewhere has caused the spots on your car, I think by incorrect washing. You will notice this is exactly why pro detailers and enthusiast alike like to use RO water for final rinse.

I myself have caused something similar on my BMW in the past, when I hosed bird shit off my car and left the normal tap water standing. In the direct sunlight it dried and stained the paintwork.

Don't think you should use Meguiars Scratch X or similar, as it may prove to be aggressive and leave you with more holograms.

Although I am really very busy to fix these, if you like drop by mine. I can look at them and tell you what it is 100%.

I would just seek advice from a local professional detailer such as Gleammachine or Auto Finesse, who can not only guide you but remove them at a reasonable cost without causing further damage.

The best way to prevent this thing from happening is to never wash your car in direct sunlight and to dry your car properly. Also waxing your car can reduce the bonding of contaminants to the paintwork, but again this will not prevent water spots 100% unless the car is dried properly.

Last edited by flyfs6; 04-21-2010 at 10:01 AM.
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      04-21-2010, 10:24 AM   #53
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flyfs6,

From mowflow's post it makes it sound like he had the lacquer issue before it started peeling. Of course if the lacquer is already damanged then I understand how water could work it's way under. If however the lacquer is undamaged then it should be impossible for something to get "under" it without first eating through it.

Also, I am very careful when washing my car, I always pre-foam/rinse then wash with a lambswool mitt and CarLack shampoo.

I will agree that it was a sunny day but I dried the car properly and used Meguiars Last Touch as a QD in the process. These are definitely not residual water spots, at any rate they are not mineral deposits on the surface of the paint (which is what it would be if it were a water spot, which is essentially a spot of limescale). If anything, this is some kind of corrosion that's attacked the clear coat.

Also my car was fully protected, it had 3 layers of CarLack LLS on it. I don't think my issue was caused by washing but the car had been wet with rain during the 2 weeks it didn't get a wash. Perhaps it happened during that 2 weeks and I only noticed when I cleaned her off.

I might pop into Gleammachine or Auto Finesse to see what they say. Thanks for your offer, I might take you up on it if I dont get anywhere!
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      04-21-2010, 10:46 AM   #54
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I have been reading this with interest at work today, as I have noticed what are water marks all over my car (only seen close up really).

Anyway it then led me to "clay bar" detailing, something I have not tried - ever.

Anyway due to being out in the sticks here (no decent shops within 18 mile), and staring at "blue tac" on my desk, that too got me wondering.

A quick google search came up with a mixed response for using blue tac as a clay bar.

Anyway I nipped over to our stationary store and grabbed 2 packs of "white tac".

Earlier this afternoon on I decided to give it a go, and see if it would produce any results


Well - I have to say, the results are great ..... only did the bonnet and sides, however it looks 100 times better, removing all water marks, and areas I thought where shiny, are now a deep black gloss .......

I was gobsmacked, and will therefore be "detailing" my whole car this weekend with White Tac .....lol.


Also used an old spray bottle with a very weak mixture of car shampoo and water, as Lube.


I am not sure why people are saying it does not work .... as it 100% does.


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      04-21-2010, 11:00 AM   #55
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craig,

If the White-Tac has taken your water spots off then they were almost certainly mineral deposits (essentially limescale), which is what I thought I had.

Claying did nothing for the marks on my motor though so I am convinced they are not "water spots" as such. The marks on my car are definitely NOT surface contaminants/mineral deposits.

Regarding using White-Tac. I thought the general consensus was that the reason to not use White/Blu-Tac is that it is not formulated to collect and then embed the particles it picks ups. I think detailing clays are designed so that they pick up the particles and then lift them away from the surface so that they dont induce marring as you continue to clay.

Obviously that could all be a load of tosh and I guess as long as you use enough lubricant you should avoid doing too much damage (where's Will when you need him?).

I woud be careful about using White-Tac and keep an eye on whether it is inducing marring or not.
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      04-21-2010, 11:34 AM   #56
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Another update from the DW thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodo Factory
A couple of detailers have reported similar paint issues to me recently and asked what I thought. This has nothing to do with the volcano as some of these marks are pre-volcano.

There are two leading theories so far, which may account for at least some of the cases.

1) railside contamination

Cars left outside near railway lines will be sucseptible to track cleaners running nearby, sending metal particles into the air... these land in the clearcoat, and oxidise with rain and sunshine causing weird oxidation/watermarks that are not easily removed

2) pollen damage

Summer months see a lot of pollen stain certain clearcoats. I am amazed pollen could do this but this is what one customer reported to a detailer recently.

It is odd how these marks are coming out in Summer and how quite a few people are reporting them. Doesn't seem to affect all makes and models. Some paint is unaffected. The softer 'self-healing' paint seems particularly susceptible but I am still trying to gather data.
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      04-21-2010, 12:04 PM   #57
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Interesting thread!
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      04-21-2010, 12:08 PM   #58
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Interesting thread!
9 pages and still going on DW!!

Hopefully someone there will come up with a solution that doesn't involve any harsh correct or respray!
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      04-21-2010, 01:03 PM   #59
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Toxic another thread for you bud if it helps...

http://www.tt-forum.co.uk/forum/view...t=3077&p=38529
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      04-21-2010, 01:20 PM   #60
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Toxic another thread for you bud if it helps...

http://www.tt-forum.co.uk/forum/view...t=3077&p=38529
Thanks mate
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      04-21-2010, 01:59 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toxicnerve View Post
I will give that a go, woudl WD-40 have any adverse affects on the paintwork?
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      04-21-2010, 02:24 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by themetz View Post
no
Well, I just tried it and no success. Latest impressions from Dodo Factory (who I assume works for/owns Dodo Juice as he shows as a forum sponsor):

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodo Factory
LSPs won't be much use.

If it is ferrous fallout from track cleaners and trains passing over the track, these metal particles are very sharp and far harder than any LSP, clearcoat or paint protection film. They can therefore lodge into it, be rained upon and the oxidise nicely with a bit of air and sun.

The best bet to remove the fallout would be fallout remover, but my guess is that by the time the particles have oxidised within the clearcoat, the damage to the clear has been done - and done internally. So machining them will not remove them adequately - the damage is too deep.

Softer paints seem worse affected - softer paints on bumpers for flexibility, on japanese cars and modern 'self healing' clears as being used on some recent German luxury cars and the 370z, GTR.

I guess the harder clears are resisting the metal particles better.
I emboldend the bits above...doesn't sound hopefuly
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      04-21-2010, 03:44 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyfs6 View Post
toxicnerve that isn't water getting under the paint like mowflow describes on his old Golf. What he is saying sound like top coat was peeling on his car, probably as a result of which the water was getting under the lacquer/top coat. Itís very common on older cars.

I am not a pro detailer or a chemist, but I've been detailing as a hobby and attended a few advanced machine polishing classes. The thing on your car is similar to bird shit staining paintwork, itís the composition of minerals in hard water. It happens around the house like water spots in the kitchen sink, shower, or the kettle. This is partially the reason why car shampoos products often say do not wash in direct sunlight etc.

Something somewhere has caused the spots on your car, I think by incorrect washing. You will notice this is exactly why pro detailers and enthusiast alike like to use RO water for final rinse.

I myself have caused something similar on my BMW in the past, when I hosed bird shit off my car and left the normal tap water standing. In the direct sunlight it dried and stained the paintwork.

Don't think you should use Meguiars Scratch X or similar, as it may prove to be aggressive and leave you with more holograms.

Although I am really very busy to fix these, if you like drop by mine. I can look at them and tell you what it is 100%.

I would just seek advice from a local professional detailer such as Gleammachine or Auto Finesse, who can not only guide you but remove them at a reasonable cost without causing further damage.

The best way to prevent this thing from happening is to never wash your car in direct sunlight and to dry your car properly. Also waxing your car can reduce the bonding of contaminants to the paintwork, but again this will not prevent water spots 100% unless the car is dried properly.
I honestly think your answer was in this post. As this thread grows people are going to come up with stranger and stranger examples. Please stop worrying and reffering to machining as aggressive. Hopefully once the right people have seen and assessed this your car is going to look better than it ever has.
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      04-21-2010, 03:58 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieL View Post
I honestly think your answer was in this post. As this thread grows people are going to come up with stranger and stranger examples. Please stop worrying and reffering to machining as aggressive. Hopefully once the right people have seen and assessed this your car is going to look better than it ever has.
Eddie,

I appreciate what you are saying but no matter how you look at it a machine polish will reduce paint thickness and of therefore the available paint thickness for any future corrections.

If a polish is the only solution then so be it but surely it is advisable to exhaust other potential solutions first?

As suggested by flyfs6 I will take my car to one of the local recommended pro-detailers to get an "eyes-on" opinion. Also the opinion of Dodo Factory is not to be disregarded surely?
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      04-21-2010, 04:45 PM   #65
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Just wanted to clarify that when I said "this exact same problem happened to my old Golf" what I really meant was it looked the same. I'm no expert and was even further from an expert when I had that car so I can't say with authority that it was the same problem. The lacquer didn't appear to be broken where the water spots appeared but I have no doubt that my poor washing method and some of the fixes I tried at the time made it worse.

Toxicnerve, sounds like you know what you are doing so don't worry that yours will go as bad as mine did. There's enough people looking into this so no doubt a fix will eventually be found.

I would like to say that the theory about the railway track cleaners sounds entirely plausible but I live pretty near a railway track and my wifes sapphire black e87 has been getting parked here for 2 years and the paint is fine. She also parks next to a railway line at work. Surely any tiny particles of sharp metal would need to be fired at the car by high speed winds or something for them to impact into the clear coat?
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      04-21-2010, 05:02 PM   #66
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Just to add:

Quote:
There are three major causes of paint contamination:

1. Rail dust - produced from the friction of train wheels against railroad tracks. Over 70% of new vehicles are shipped by rail. Rail dust can contaminate a new car's finish before it even reaches the dealership. Anytime a vehicle is parked or travels near a railroad it is subject to rail dust contamination.

2. Brake dust - particles produced from the friction of brake pads rubbing against the rotor. This metal on metal friction disperses tiny particles of bare metal into the air and on the highway where it collects on passing vehicles.

3. Industrial fallout - another word for pollution, industrial fallout is a byproduct of our modern industrial age.

Point 2 is interesting.


Taken from

http://www.properautocare.com/usclaybartor.html


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