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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > New v4 4-15 beta maps now publicly available



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      04-23-2010, 06:56 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shyestsparks View Post
You meant 2.0 right? I thought Shiv is now running an M10 nozzle now? I'm happy for you man; now if we could have that N2O wiring diagram from Shiv, then we'll be golden.
Yeah the car is running really good right now with the M7 nozzle....Shiv is using the M10 nozzle, but he stated somewhere along the line that its not proven just yet if it has improved on any more gains than the M7 nozzle, but he needs to do some more test to see the effectiveness of the M10 to the M7 besides using more METH!!! lol...As for the Nitrous, I am about to pull the trigger and order an basic NX Express kit and have the hardware installed while we wait for Shivmeister to give us the instructions and wiring schematics to the Procede! I can't wait to take it to the track the first time this summer with meth and nitrous!! This summer is going to be very exciting to say the least...Best tune by far period...
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      04-23-2010, 07:38 PM   #24
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Applied this new update. I noticed that in the procede software the fuel correction is at -10.2% without starting the car and then stays like that after the car is started?
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      04-23-2010, 07:44 PM   #25
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heh, my aggression was up to 6 on a long 2-3-4 pull on an 18.5psi map with meth. Need to dial that down or put in the bigger nozzle. ut 82, ic 20.

My timing starts at 5-6 degrees under load going up to 9.5 at redline, in 2nd, never quite reaches 8 at the top of 3rd gear.

Time to lower the boost to the 17.5 range.

My understanding is CAN DME timing needs to be at least in the 10 degree range to be on the "safe" side?
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      04-23-2010, 07:47 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by themyst View Post
heh, my aggression was up to 6 on a long 2-3-4 pull on an 18.5psi map with meth. Need to dial that down or put in the bigger nozzle. ut 82, ic 20.

My timing starts at 5-6 degrees under load going up to 9.5 at redline, in 2nd, never quite reaches 8 at the top of 3rd gear.

Time to lower the boost to the 17.5 range.

My understanding is CAN DME timing needs to be at least in the 10 degree range to be on the "safe" side?
Whoa your running way to much UT my friend!!! I would suggest nothing more than 75 with ic 10%...What size nozzle are you using right now anyway?
From Shivs logs showing autotuning, when meth is used it should be close to 1-3 for consistent and safe power
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      04-23-2010, 07:56 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dzenno View Post
Applied this new update. I noticed that in the procede software the fuel correction is at -10.2% without starting the car and then stays like that after the car is started?
Correct. "Fuel Correction" is a misnomer as it actually does something else. It will change between -10 and -30 or so from time to time.
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      04-23-2010, 07:59 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by themyst View Post
heh, my aggression was up to 6 on a long 2-3-4 pull on an 18.5psi map with meth. Need to dial that down or put in the bigger nozzle. ut 82, ic 20.

My timing starts at 5-6 degrees under load going up to 9.5 at redline, in 2nd, never quite reaches 8 at the top of 3rd gear.

Time to lower the boost to the 17.5 range.

My understanding is CAN DME timing needs to be at least in the 10 degree range to be on the "safe" side?
CAN DME timing needs to follow a stock-like curve in order to be on the safe side. The more it deviates from this "ideal" timing curve, the higher the Aggression value will go. In your case, 6 indicates a very aggressive time. One that has the DME actively retarded a lot of timing under boost. On meth and/or race gas, try to keep in the 2-3 range. Going higher than that will just result in power loss and inconsistency. Pretty simple stuff which is why we are going to have the Procede do it all by itself next week.

Shiv
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      04-23-2010, 08:02 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cn555ic View Post
Whoa your running way to much UT my friend!!! I would suggest nothing more than 75 with ic 10%...What size nozzle are you using right now anyway?
From Shivs logs showing autotuning, when meth is used it should be close to 1-3 for consistent and safe power
I know lol, I was testing the limits. I was pushing 16.5 on meth pulling 10-11 degrees on load, towards 13 at redline. 17.5 psi was the most i've pushed on the JB3 and saw timing at 9-10 degrees pushing 12 at redline.

I figure i'll be around 17.5 psi on the dyno tomorrow. perhaps 18. Figure UT should be around 78 for that, right?
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      04-23-2010, 08:03 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
CAN DME timing needs to follow a stock-like curve in order to be on the safe side. The more it deviates from this "ideal" timing curve, the higher the Aggression value will go. In your case, 6 indicates a very aggressive time. One that has the DME actively retarded a lot of timing under boost. On meth and/or race gas, try to keep in the 2-3 range. Going higher than that will just result in power loss and inconsistency. Pretty simple stuff which is why we are going to have the Procede do it all by itself next week.

Shiv
Care to take a look at a log on this setting, Shiv? The parameters logged are the defaults on the included template. I can e-mail it to you right now.
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      04-23-2010, 08:04 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by themyst View Post
Care to take a look at a log on this setting, Shiv? The parameters logged are the defaults on the included template. I can e-mail it to you right now.
I'm on my phone so i can't view logs. But if you post up the graph as a jpeg, I (and others can) take a look at it.

Shiv
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      04-23-2010, 08:13 PM   #32
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Here you go guys. It's ugly.
And yes, that was a bog on the 2-3 shift

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Last edited by themyst; 04-23-2010 at 08:27 PM.
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      04-23-2010, 08:19 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
CAN DME timing needs to follow a stock-like curve in order to be on the safe side. The more it deviates from this "ideal" timing curve, the higher the Aggression value will go. .

Shiv
Ding ding ding......

Thank-you for another cue to look for.

You are right.

There are times when my Can Actual timing curve looks marginal, but the Can DME curve still looks stock like and pulls upwards to 12 degrees by redline.

So in that case, the procede is still within its limits to intervene and retard enough timing to save the show.

So I guess it's when both Can Actual and Can DME timing look bad that you know you've thrown the baby out with the bath water and pushed things too far.
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      04-23-2010, 08:20 PM   #34
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      04-23-2010, 08:31 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by themyst View Post
Here you go guys. It's ugly.
And yes, that was a bog on the 2-3 shift

Way too aggressive. It may very well make good power on the dyno. But when you are operating with that much knock retard, it wont be very consistent. Especially on the road. You may want to add CAN dbw throttle to your logs too.

And btw, CAN DME ignition advance isn't actual timing as it doesn't take into account ignition correction by the procede. But at just 20% IC, that correction is going to be very small. DME ignition advance plus Ignition Correction equals Actual Ignition Advance. Which you can log by adding CAN Actual ignition Advance to your logs. The only reason we care about DME ignition advance is that it is much easier to detect knock retard since the DME timing targets are predictable. Actual Ignition Advance is less so since the Procede is mapped to retard more or less timing based on things like oil temp, coolant temp, iat, and boost.

Shiv

Last edited by shiv@vishnu; 04-23-2010 at 08:37 PM.
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      04-23-2010, 08:35 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
Way too aggressive. It may very well make good power on the dyno. But when you are operating with that much knock retard, it wont be very consistent. Especially on the road. You may want to add CAN dbw throttle to your logs too.

Shiv
Do you think the map aggression has any correlation to the bog event?

Do you think a better setting would be UT 75 IC 0, or still too aggressive based on what you see? Honestly, I am simply looking to dial in a map for dyno glory numbers that can still be run on the road semi-reliably.

When I was running UT70 (on the older map) IC100 on meth, timing looked extremely healthy, but I am sure I was leaving something on the table.
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      04-23-2010, 08:39 PM   #37
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For comparison, mine looks like this with UT70 and IC20 (boost gauge showed 16.5PSI, even though no rpm show, this was 3500RPM to almost 7k in 3rd gear). Above 6500 rpm CAN DME IGN adv was at 13.5. tried UT75 and IC0 and my car did not seem to like it. I still have high flow cats in the DP's so that might be the problem?
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      04-23-2010, 08:47 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by themyst View Post
Do you think the map aggression has any correlation to the bog event?
Confirm that the bog was caused by actual throttle by plotting Can dmw throttle. If you see it lagging far behind applied throttle, then it is a legitimate bog which is surprising.

If it's not lagging behind actual throttle, then it is caused by something else which isn't tune related. But it should be easy enough to track down.


Quote:
Do you think a better setting would be UT 75 IC 0, or still too aggressive based on what you see? Honestly, I am simply looking to dial in a map for dyno glory numbers that can still be run on the road semi-reliably.
I really can't predict what your car will behave like at any setting once we start talking about meth since a lot will depend on meth mixture, nozzle size, pump pressure, etc,. But things will certainly look more stable if you drop boost a bit. 75UT and 0IC might be a good place to start. And then maybe creep up the IC a bit if you still see it being too aggressive.

Quote:
When I was running UT70 (on the older map) IC100 on meth, timing looked extremely healthy, but I am sure I was leaving something on the table
Absolutely. No reason to ever run 100IC on meth or race gas. Just wasting power.

As far as dyno glory settings, you're guess is going to be as good as mine. We never do that stuff and I wouldn't even be tell you where to start as far as settings go. You can certainly play around a bit as you have all the tools you need to monitor and dial in whatever kind of power that you want (and is feasible with the mods/fuel).

Shiv
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      04-23-2010, 08:51 PM   #39
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Here's one I dialed in before I knew what I was doing on the 2-23 maps:
UT 70 IC 100
I included the CAN DBW throttle and this one slightly bogged as well.

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      04-23-2010, 08:58 PM   #40
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Here is my 82 UT 20 IC map once more with the actual throttle on top of the CAN DBW.

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      04-23-2010, 09:06 PM   #41
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wow those logs look like shit.
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      04-23-2010, 09:12 PM   #42
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BTW, I have Forge DVs if that makes a difference but I doubt it.
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      04-23-2010, 09:21 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by themyst View Post
BTW, I have Forge DVs if that makes a difference but I doubt it.
I run those too. With the yellow spring so i don't think that is the reason for the bog. Are you running default Future Use 2 values (45%)? Also, does it still bog at more reasonable boost pressures?

We can use the big hammer approach and eliminate the bog by simply keeping actual boost from going above dme target but we shouldn't really have to do that. Send me the logs when you get a chance (shiv@vishnutuning.com) and I'll look at them when I get back home tomorrow. We can easily make some adjustments. But i don't want to go unnecessary overboard.

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      04-23-2010, 09:23 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
I run those too. With the yellow spring so i don't think that is the reason for the bog. Are you running default Future Use 2 values (45%)? Also, does it still bog at more reasonable boost pressures?

shiv
Yea default 45% on Future use 2, I was pushing 16.5 psi on the 2-23 map on one of those logs in this thread and I still bogged. I have a crazy timing spike on the shift as well, I really really don't know. It's frustrating.
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