E90Post
 


GTB Performance
 
BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Xede tuning risks



Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      12-01-2006, 03:33 PM   #1
fairtex
Enlisted Member
 
Drives: 06' 350z, 03' E46 M3
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: CA

Posts: 49
iTrader: (0)

Xede tuning risks

I'm a little concerned about all the people getting the Xede tune done to their cars. I don't mean to be a downer here because I think Shiv is doing great things for the enthusiast community, but doesn't doing this void the factory warranty? The tune sure does free up a lot of the hidden power, but don't you think that power was hidden for a reason? I have faith in BMW's judgement, and I think that they tuned the car with reliability in mind. I have no doubt they could have well tuned the car and upped the boost but I feel they left it the way it is now for a reason.

With that said, don't you Xede people feel even just a little bit itchy about gaining that much more power from Xede with stock internals? It sounds a bit too good to be true doesn't it? The power of an $80k car in a 3-series daily driver... what do you guys think?
fairtex is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      12-01-2006, 03:56 PM   #2
vanillarice19
Private
 
vanillarice19's Avatar
 
Drives: bmw
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: CA

Posts: 67
iTrader: (0)

If any warning light goes on, just remove the XEDE and the Aux. Selenoid and replace with original selenoid and the car will be 100% stock and take it to the dealer. (15-20 minutes)

It's only a 10-20% increase in power with this mod so I don't think there's going to be any reliability issues.

Once you try to get even more power with headers/downpipe/ect.... you sacrafice some reliability and your warranty.
vanillarice19 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      12-01-2006, 04:03 PM   #3
Weedo
Private First Class
 
Drives: 2007 335i Coupe, 2006 IS350
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Chandler AZ

Posts: 103
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by fairtex
I'm a little concerned about all the people getting the Xede tune done to their cars. I don't mean to be a downer here because I think Shiv is doing great things for the enthusiast community, but doesn't doing this void the factory warranty? The tune sure does free up a lot of the hidden power, but don't you think that power was hidden for a reason? I have faith in BMW's judgement, and I think that they tuned the car with reliability in mind. I have no doubt they could have well tuned the car and upped the boost but I feel they left it the way it is now for a reason.

With that said, don't you Xede people feel even just a little bit itchy about gaining that much more power from Xede with stock internals? It sounds a bit too good to be true doesn't it? The power of an $80k car in a 3-series daily driver... what do you guys think?
This doesn't worry me at all. I've done up cars with so much extra power it's rediculous. I had a 700hp Lightning, 650hp GT-67 Turbo Denali, 3 500hp plus Corvettes, 500 plus hp Cobra's, etc... There are tons of reasons a company makes their motors produce a certain amount of power. My IS350 makes 306hp without turbos. My 335i is 300hp with twin turbos. The Lexus is most likely tuned from the factory to get as much power as they can and still hold reliability. The 335 motor is tuned at very low boost levels (8.5psi). An Evo is, what, 19psi stock? The Supra twin turbos were, what, 7.5psi stock?

I never have and never will own a high performance car without throwing as much power that I can at it (without too much cost or fear of things breaking of course). 10.5psi out of the Xede tune is probably very low compared to what we're going to see down the road. I wouldn't doubt 15psi or so with great reliability. Now, will the clutch go 100,000 miles? Probably not. Will it go 50,000 miles with that much power? Probably. I won't own the car for that long anyway!
__________________
2007 335i Coupe
6-speed manual
Space Grey - Coral Leather
Sport - Premium
Weedo is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      12-01-2006, 04:08 PM   #4
ArmyBimmerDude
Major General
 
ArmyBimmerDude's Avatar
 
Drives: Lola
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Georgia

Posts: 5,503
iTrader: (3)

Garage List
Send a message via AIM to ArmyBimmerDude Send a message via Yahoo to ArmyBimmerDude
Quote:
Originally Posted by Weedo
This doesn't worry me at all. I've done up cars with so much extra power it's rediculous. I had a 700hp Lightning, 650hp GT-67 Turbo Denali, 3 500hp plus Corvettes, 500 plus hp Cobra's, etc... There are tons of reasons a company makes their motors produce a certain amount of power. My IS350 makes 306hp without turbos. My 335i is 300hp with twin turbos. The Lexus is most likely tuned from the factory to get as much power as they can and still hold reliability. The 335 motor is tuned at very low boost levels (8.5psi). An Evo is, what, 19psi stock? The Supra twin turbos were, what, 7.5psi stock?

I never have and never will own a high performance car without throwing as much power that I can at it (without too much cost or fear of things breaking of course). 10.5psi out of the Xede tune is probably very low compared to what we're going to see down the road. I wouldn't doubt 15psi or so with great reliability. Now, will the clutch go 100,000 miles? Probably not. Will it go 50,000 miles with that much power? Probably. I won't own the car for that long anyway!

And word! :rocks:
__________________
2007 E92 Montego Blue 335i
ArmyBimmerDude is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      12-01-2006, 04:21 PM   #5
Cyruz
Captain
 
Drives: Montego Blue 335i
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: NY

Posts: 620
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2007 335i  [0.00]
2007 335i  [0.00]
not really too concerned. Granted im am not ordering mine untill late dec for pick up reasons.

I currently drive a 2000 S4 with 112k miles, on the clock. the car has been chipped, custome DP and exhuast for a while, still on the original turbos. this set up is kinda weak compared to some of the turbo swaps and more aggressive chips out there. I put down 304 to the wheels as of now.
Cyruz is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      12-01-2006, 06:47 PM   #6
Clem
Major
 
Clem's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 E90 M3 AW/FR ESS VT2
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: MD

Posts: 1,229
iTrader: (4)

Send a message via AIM to Clem
Heck, I'm more concerned about the availability of the XEDE! My 335 has yet to be built and I'm thinking of ordering one now so I can just look at it and imagine the power.........
Clem is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      12-01-2006, 07:15 PM   #7
vanillarice19
Private
 
vanillarice19's Avatar
 
Drives: bmw
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: CA

Posts: 67
iTrader: (0)

Map's for the XEDE aren't even done yet for Steptronic transmissions but I went ahead and ordered anyways. I want it before Xmas time when relatives come over so I can show off the car with all the extra power.
I fear there may be a shortage so I ordered the second day it was available....
vanillarice19 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      12-01-2006, 08:06 PM   #8
wj4
Major General
 
Drives: E90 manual 335i
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Burbank, CA

Posts: 7,723
iTrader: (8)

Send a message via AIM to wj4
Yes, the car has been built to last as long as possible.

There is a saying that goes..."you pay to play", meaning that if you want more power to hang with the big boys, you will have to pay for it, either in monetory form or others..
wj4 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      12-01-2006, 09:28 PM   #9
JEllis
Brigadier General
 
JEllis's Avatar
 
Drives: E36 M3, E92 M3
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: SD CA/Yuma

Posts: 4,713
iTrader: (4)

In the latest Eurotuner Magazine there is an article about the 335 and a short interview with a designer from BMW. Apparently BMW toyed around with high Hp versions of the 335. The rep stated that the 335 is more than capable of making much more power. He went on to say that BMW decided to tone down the Hp due to getting the feel and comfort that a premium 3ser owner expects. Basically the power output was chosen for balance based upon want the majority of BMW 3ser owners are going to want.

Jason
__________________
http://www.m3post.com/forums/signaturepics/sigpic14547_7.gif
JEllis is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      12-01-2006, 09:39 PM   #10
sflgator
Major General
 
sflgator's Avatar
 
Drives: '09 MB C63 AMG & '08 MB GL450
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: U.S.

Posts: 5,389
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JEllis
In the latest Eurotuner Magazine there is an article about the 335 and a short interview with a designer from BMW. Apparently BMW toyed around with high Hp versions of the 335. The rep stated that the 335 is more than capable of making much more power. He went on to say that BMW decided to tone down the Hp due to getting the feel and comfort that a premium 3ser owner expects. Basically the power output was chosen for balance based upon want the majority of BMW 3ser owners are going to want.

Jason
Yeah, and I bet as soon as the 415+HP '08 M3 comes out in the fall, '07, you'll see BMW up the '08 335i's HP/TQ numbers to it's "real" HP/TQ numbers (without really touching a thing on it).
__________________

|2009 RENNtech MB C63 AMG | Black/Black Leather/Black Maple | Premium II | MultiMedia | iPod |
| TeleAid | Charcoal Filter Delete | BMC High-Flow Air Filters | High-Flow Secondary Cats | Clear Side Markers |
sflgator is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      12-01-2006, 10:35 PM   #11
Coach2
New Member
 
Drives: 2007 335i Sedan
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: NJ

Posts: 17
iTrader: (0)

Send a message via AIM to Coach2
I know we are just speculating here...if BMW does "tune" the 08 335, then it stands to reason that you could put an 08 ECU in an 07 and see "Stock" performance go up.
Just speculation of course.
__________________
-Coach-
2007 335i Sedan 6MT
Black on Black
Premium/Sport/Nav/HotSeats
Picked Up 12/29/06
Coach2 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      12-01-2006, 10:49 PM   #12
sflgator
Major General
 
sflgator's Avatar
 
Drives: '09 MB C63 AMG & '08 MB GL450
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: U.S.

Posts: 5,389
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach
I know we are just speculating here...if BMW does "tune" the 08 335, then it stands to reason that you could put an 08 ECU in an 07 and see "Stock" performance go up.
Just speculation of course.
...don't know how you could get a hold of an '08 ECU (other than have BMW update your ECU w/ new s/w), but if you've got an extra $1,300, you can just get the Xede Stage SubZero kit to add ~ 50+HP/TQ! Shiv will be installing my Xede in 2 weeks!
__________________

|2009 RENNtech MB C63 AMG | Black/Black Leather/Black Maple | Premium II | MultiMedia | iPod |
| TeleAid | Charcoal Filter Delete | BMC High-Flow Air Filters | High-Flow Secondary Cats | Clear Side Markers |
sflgator is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      12-01-2006, 11:22 PM   #13
russ_777
Private
 
Drives: 08 4LT Corvette Coupe
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Mt. Pleasant SC

Posts: 55
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JEllis
In the latest Eurotuner Magazine there is an article about the 335 and a short interview with a designer from BMW. Apparently BMW toyed around with high Hp versions of the 335. The rep stated that the 335 is more than capable of making much more power. He went on to say that BMW decided to tone down the Hp due to getting the feel and comfort that a premium 3ser owner expects. Basically the power output was chosen for balance based upon want the majority of BMW 3ser owners are going to want.

Jason
I read the same article. The guy being interviewed was the drivetrain PM, Udo Lindner. He said they intentionally limited the boost to a low value becuase it was very important that it not feel like a typical turbo motor with lag. He also said that with more power (I presume by applying more boost) that "there's a problem with the downpipe - it gets very hot and will break".

When asked if BMW was inpsired by tuners, he said "It's always good to se what tuners can achieve with relatively small R&D budgets. But I'm frustrated by their one dimensional approach. For them, it's about power, torque and acceleration [insert comment - no sh*t Sherlock], whereas a manufacturer mustbe multidimensional and create an entire package."

He said that the twin turbo option was one of many configurations considered for the 335, and that its tuning potential was "a small consideration, but it was considered." He said the engine is flexible and they could easily give it more power if it became necessary.

Sounds like someone might ought to check into this downpipe thingy he mentioned.
russ_777 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      12-02-2006, 09:24 AM   #14
JEllis
Brigadier General
 
JEllis's Avatar
 
Drives: E36 M3, E92 M3
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: SD CA/Yuma

Posts: 4,713
iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Sounds like someone might ought to check into this downpipe thingy he mentioned
Its probably a legit issue as downpipe swaps are pretty standard for Turbo cars. I imagine beefier downpipe options will starting popping up soon...

Jason
__________________
http://www.m3post.com/forums/signaturepics/sigpic14547_7.gif
JEllis is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      12-02-2006, 10:56 AM   #15
vanillarice19
Private
 
vanillarice19's Avatar
 
Drives: bmw
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: CA

Posts: 67
iTrader: (0)

I'm sure this may become an issue if the car was taken to the track where the temps really get up there but for normal spirited driving it's probably just fine. Besides, if there's a crack or leak, just remove the XEDE and the car is back to stock.
vanillarice19 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      12-02-2006, 12:50 PM   #16
Ryan@Motorwerks
Captain
 
Ryan@Motorwerks's Avatar
 
Drives: 335i Coupe
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Houston, TX

Posts: 941
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by fairtex
IThe tune sure does free up a lot of the hidden power, but don't you think that power was hidden for a reason?
The reason is they need to give the new M3 some breathing room.
Ryan@Motorwerks is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      12-03-2006, 07:05 PM   #17
wj4
Major General
 
Drives: E90 manual 335i
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Burbank, CA

Posts: 7,723
iTrader: (8)

Send a message via AIM to wj4
Another thing you guys have to factor in is the compression ratio. Some cars can not handle high boost (on stock internals anyways).
wj4 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      12-03-2006, 11:12 PM   #18
Turbo Squid
Model
 
Turbo Squid's Avatar
 
Drives: M3 + C55
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Vienna, VA

Posts: 281
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Send a message via AIM to Turbo Squid
With the 50hp you gain with the Xede are people changing their spark plugs?


Reference: From NGK's FAQ: Spark Plug Gap

"Another consideration that should be taken into account is the extent of any modifications that you may have made to the engine. As an example, when you raise compression or add forced induction (a turbo system, nitrous or supercharger kit) you must reduce the gap (about .004" for every 50 hp you add). However, when you add a high power ignition system (such as those offered by MSD, Crane, Nology) you can open the gap from .002-.005"."

Just my 2 cent for yall.
__________________

____________________
\_O______________O_/
llllllllllll___________llllllllllll
Turbo Squid is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      12-07-2006, 11:47 PM   #19
Turbo Squid
Model
 
Turbo Squid's Avatar
 
Drives: M3 + C55
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Vienna, VA

Posts: 281
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Send a message via AIM to Turbo Squid
Anyone care to tickle me with a response?
__________________

____________________
\_O______________O_/
llllllllllll___________llllllllllll
Turbo Squid is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      12-08-2006, 07:26 AM   #20
Bravo1
Private First Class
 
Drives: Accord
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Lafayette, LA

Posts: 114
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by russ_777
Sounds like someone might ought to check into this downpipe thingy he mentioned.
I think Shiv may addressed this through tuning and I would suspect that the BMW ECU update may do the same. Just from reading posts on this board, it appeared that the engine was running very lean for a stock car and produced a very high amount of heat because of it. By making it a little richer, I think it helped cool things down a little bit but an EGT gauge would be the only way to tell for sure. Either way I expect a full turbo back system to be out within the next six months and the boost levels will really depending on the quality of gas you are using.
Bravo1 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      12-08-2006, 08:41 AM   #21
theslik1
Second Lieutenant
 
theslik1's Avatar
 
Drives: Lexus IS-F
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: SC

Posts: 213
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbo Squid
With the 50hp you gain with the Xede are people changing their spark plugs?


Reference: From NGK's FAQ: Spark Plug Gap

"Another consideration that should be taken into account is the extent of any modifications that you may have made to the engine. As an example, when you raise compression or add forced induction (a turbo system, nitrous or supercharger kit) you must reduce the gap (about .004" for every 50 hp you add). However, when you add a high power ignition system (such as those offered by MSD, Crane, Nology) you can open the gap from .002-.005"."

Just my 2 cent for yall.
I suspect it's not as much of an issue at the 335's lower boost levels, but I changed/regapped the plugs on my 4G63 when I upped the boost from 12 to 16 psi. It seemed to help the power delivery. FWIW I use NGK plugs and they are excellent in turbo applications.

The gapping issue is going to become more important when installing bigger turbos with higher boost pressures. IMHO.
theslik1 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      12-10-2006, 04:56 PM   #22
Turbo Squid
Model
 
Turbo Squid's Avatar
 
Drives: M3 + C55
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Vienna, VA

Posts: 281
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Send a message via AIM to Turbo Squid
Quote:
Originally Posted by theslik1
I suspect it's not as much of an issue at the 335's lower boost levels, but I changed/regapped the plugs on my 4G63 when I upped the boost from 12 to 16 psi. It seemed to help the power delivery. FWIW I use NGK plugs and they are excellent in turbo applications.

The gapping issue is going to become more important when installing bigger turbos with higher boost pressures. IMHO.

Thank you for your response. Your point about lower boost pressures never crossed my mind.
__________________

____________________
\_O______________O_/
llllllllllll___________llllllllllll
Turbo Squid is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:59 PM.




e90post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST