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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Fueling Resistors -- What Do They Do? Using This Data for Upgraded Turbos or Nitrous



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      05-14-2010, 08:19 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Clap135 View Post
It wont show inconsistencies though, It will be consistently rich lol, however it won't be accurate. Like I said in my edited post, you are not there yet being that you are still making power, however you should be close to maxing out the injector "time frame" cause as stated, the window useable fuel gets injected on a DI motor is alot smaller than that of a PI car. But first things is first, get accurate fp measurements from terry's scaling factor.
So how will monitoring FP only give you an idea of when you run out of fuel?
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      05-14-2010, 08:23 AM   #24
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So how will monitoring FP only give you an idea of when you run out of fuel?
When you request enough fuel you get a point where the fuel pump can't keep up with the request. So if it can't keep up and the injectors are spraying wide open, you drop pressure. If you see pressure drops, chances are you maxed out the fuel pump. In some di cars (not sure about this one) this results in a false rich condition as fuel is simply spraying past combustion.
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      05-14-2010, 08:27 AM   #25
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When you request enough fuel you get a point where the fuel pump can't keep up with the request. So if it can't keep up and the injectors are spraying wide open, you drop pressure. If you see pressure drops, chances are you maxed out the fuel pump. In some di cars (not sure about this one) this results in a false rich condition as fuel is simply spraying past combustion.
I understand everything you are saying and your logic makes sense. Still what you saying is that me must monitor both AFR and FP to determine the max limit of the fuel system. I am saying the exact same thing. I am simply looking to push the car until we see anomolies.

Second, the fueling resistors are also limiting mid range fueling right now to 14.0:1 and in my opinion that is not good enough for aggressive setups. You need to bias the O2 sensors more than the ~5k ohm resistors allow. I know I don't feel good triggering nitrous on an AFR of 14.0:1 in peak torque.
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      05-14-2010, 08:39 AM   #26
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I understand everything you are saying and your logic makes sense. Still what you saying is that me must monitor both AFR and FP to determine the max limit of the fuel system. I am saying the exact same thing. I am simply looking to push the car until we see anomolies.

Second, the fueling resistors are also limiting mid range fueling right now to 14.0:1 and in my opinion that is not good enough for aggressive setups. You need to bias the O2 sensors more than the ~5k ohm resistors allow. I know I don't feel good triggering nitrous on an AFR of 14.0:1 in peak torque.
We're on the same page, however I just want to make sure the fp readings you are getting are not a false signal that is sent to the ecu, cause as you know thats what piggys do. Say bone stock fp is 2200psi downlown and you are recording 780ish. What is that 780, is that scaled wrong, is that what the ecu thinks fuel pressure is? Is that what the ecu is adjusting fuel pressure by to achieve its target? Will that 780 drop if fp raises above the limits of the fuel pump? Things you should look into before you can claim the a/f ratios your wideband is showing are accurate.
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      05-14-2010, 08:41 AM   #27
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We're on the same page, however I just want to make sure the fp readings you are getting are not a false signal that is sent to the ecu, cause as you know thats what piggys do. Say bone stock fp is 2200psi downlown and you are recording 780ish. What is that 780, is that scaled wrong, is that what the ecu thinks fuel pressure is? Is that what the ecu is adjusting fuel pressure by to achieve its target? Will that 780 drop if fp raises above the limits of the fuel pump? Things you should look into before you can claim the a/f ratios your wideband is showing.
Regardless, you are still only saying at high rpms is where the false would occur. At peak torque, where I have concerns, we should not see injector window contamination.
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      05-14-2010, 08:47 AM   #28
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Regardless, you are still only saying at high rpms is where the false would occur. At peak torque, where I have concerns, we should not see injector window contamination.
If i said that, i'm sorry, that is not what i meant, you can drop pressure anywhere in the rpm band, typically it will start right after peak tq.
I would have to call cpe, but it would also make sense that these pump have a pressure release valve, meaning you can't go past a certain pressure which limits fuel as well. But this is just something im basing off previous platforms, not this one. Once you get into all this deeper you will quickly realize that your next car will be PI. I know mine will lol
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      05-14-2010, 08:53 AM   #29
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If i said that, i'm sorry, that is not what i meant, you can drop pressure anywhere in the rpm band, typically it will start right after peak tq.
I would have to call cpe, but it would also make sense that these pump have a pressure release valve, meaning you can't go past a certain pressure which limits fuel as well. But this is just something im basing off previous platforms, not this one. Once you get into all this deeper you will quickly realize that your next car will be PI. I know mine will lol
I am still a +500 rwhp car and that is not a bad thing. The ability to run "leaner" on a DI motor is really incredible. Running 14.0:1 on a PI car on boosts that out of compressor efficiency ranges is not wise.
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      05-14-2010, 08:56 AM   #30
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I am still a +500 rwhp car and that is not a bad thing. The ability to run "leaner" on a DI motor is really incredible. Running 14.0:1 on a PI car on boosts that out of compressor efficiency ranges is not wise.
Certainly not a bad number to be at, but it makes you wonder why asr/shiv and cpe ams both hit fuel limits at around 460-480 without meth. None of the details were explained the forums. What ran out? the pump, the lp pump, the injector duty cycle? You are right around that, so I would just be careful cause I am not sure what this car does when you exceed either of these fuel hardware limitations. Does the throttle close? Does timing get retarded? Does anything happen prior to knock?
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      05-14-2010, 09:06 AM   #31
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Certainly not a bad number to be at, but it makes you wonder why asr/shiv and cpe ams both hit fuel limits at around 460-480 without meth. None of the details were explained the forums. What ran out? the pump, the lp pump, the injector duty cycle? You are right around that, so I would just be careful cause I am not sure what this car does when you exceed either of these fuel hardware limitations. Does the throttle close? Does timing get retarded? Does anything happen prior to knock?
ASR got to 538 rwhp on meth/race gas and I think AMS failed because clipped wheel upgrades are a waste of time and money.
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      05-14-2010, 09:11 AM   #32
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ASR got to 538 rwhp on meth/race gas and I think AMS failed because clipped wheel upgrades are a waste of time and money.
So your 487 clutch slipping dyno, is maybe a little over 500 on dynojet, so you are close. Also asr was not requesting the a/f ratios you are, if they were, i havn't read about it. so your right there. I know personally ams at 450ish trying to make it run rich, over powered the fuel system. At first we thought i was another fp that ate shit. However it was their 5th fuel pump in a couple of months, so that couldn't be the problem. And it wasnt.
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      05-14-2010, 09:36 AM   #33
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So your 487 clutch slipping dyno, is maybe a little over 500 on dynojet, so you are close. Also asr was not requesting the a/f ratios you are, if they were, i havn't read about it. so your right there. I know personally ams at 450ish trying to make it run rich, over powered the fuel system. At first we thought i was another fp that ate shit. However it was their 5th fuel pump in a couple of months, so that couldn't be the problem. And it wasnt.
I put down other 480+ rwhp dynos that day, so I know it can put that down. That day I was working to dial in the controller and it kept kicking me out because I wouldn't accept 13.5+:1 AFRs. I also realized that TPS is not consistent at 2.0 on the manual. So there earlier dynos didn't have spray the entire way. The run where I slipped the clutch was when I finally got the TPS figured out and allowed 13.5:1 at a 3/10th delay. Since then I have been trying to go richer in the mid rpms before going back. I feel with the 1k ohm fueling resistors that I am where I need to be now, so a dyno is not far off.

I am not sure what ASR requested on AFR because it was never made public. I cannot imagine how AMS overpowered the fuel system at 450 rwhp though. The runs I posted with the 2.2k versus 1.0k are running around 440 rwhp. Clearly the car is accepting the richer AFR demand without problem.
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      05-14-2010, 09:48 AM   #34
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I put down other 480+ rwhp dynos that day, so I know it can put that down. That day I was working to dial in the controller and it kept kicking me out because I wouldn't accept 13.5+:1 AFRs. I also realized that TPS is not consistent at 2.0 on the manual. So there earlier dynos didn't have spray the entire way. The run where I slipped the clutch was when I finally got the TPS figured out and allowed 13.5:1 at a 3/10th delay. Since then I have been trying to go richer in the mid rpms before going back. I feel with the 1k ohm fueling resistors that I am where I need to be now, so a dyno is not far off.

I am not sure what ASR requested on AFR because it was never made public. I cannot imagine how AMS overpowered the fuel system at 450 rwhp though. The runs I posted with the 2.2k versus 1.0k are running around 440 rwhp. Clearly the car is accepting the richer AFR demand without problem.
AMS was also trying to richen up spool up/midrange and ran out of pressure. all these 440-450 dynos posted by terry or shiv have lean af ratios, no one has yet tried to hit those numbers with 11.0-11.5s downlow/midrange.
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      05-14-2010, 09:52 AM   #35
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AMS was also trying to richen up spool up/midrange and ran out of pressure. all these 440-450 dynos posted by terry or shiv have lean af ratios, no one has yet tried to hit those numbers with 11.0-11.5s downlow/midrange.
Hmmm, that is interesting to note. It will be interesting to see then how my mid range reacts on the nitrous now. I will say that the midrange has hands down been the most stubborn to richen up. I can get huge changes in high rpm A/F, but the mid range has been very stubborn to change. What means were you guys using to monitor FP?
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      05-14-2010, 10:11 AM   #36
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Hmmm, that is interesting to note. It will be interesting to see then how my mid range reacts on the nitrous now. I will say that the midrange has hands down been the most stubborn to richen up. I can get huge changes in high rpm A/F, but the mid range has been very stubborn to change. What means were you guys using to monitor FP?
The cpe standback.
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      05-14-2010, 10:13 AM   #37
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former, i think in your case the way you're pushing things cp-e's standback would be best...
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      05-14-2010, 10:14 AM   #38
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The cpe standback.
I will have to dig into this. I will have more info hopefully today. With all this said, I still was able to go from 13.7:1 at 4k to 11.9:1 at 4k with the fueling resistor change.
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      05-14-2010, 10:16 AM   #39
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former, i think in your case the way you're pushing things cp-e's standback would be best...
I am not sure that is the case to be honest. I have had everything I needed thus far from BMS.
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      05-14-2010, 10:18 AM   #40
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I am not sure that is the case to be honest. I have had everything I needed thus far from BMS.
however you can't make changes easy, you cant form your own boost curve, your own timing curve, or your own fuel curve easily. Just saying lol
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      05-14-2010, 10:24 AM   #41
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however you can't make changes easy, you cant form your own boost curve, your own timing curve, or your own fuel curve easily. Just saying lol
You would be hard pressed to take me away from BMS. Terry's customer support has been stellar.
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      05-14-2010, 10:30 AM   #42
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You would be hard pressed to take me away from BMS. Terry's customer support has been stellar.
Not trying to do that, but when you're pushing the limits and don't even know wtf the numbers you are logging mean, it makes yo go hmmmm. Thats one of my problems with the jb3, everythign and its mother in that thing is an arbitrary number. Try setting 40, change column two to 10, and the 3rd setting to 65, do a datalog. lol wtf did I just change and by how much? Thats I simply just can't live with, but people are different.
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      05-14-2010, 10:46 AM   #43
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Anyone can like a tuner all day cause hes a stand up guy and whatever else you like about them.... but what tune offers your car to run optimally.

Tune>tuner
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      05-14-2010, 10:53 AM   #44
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Anyone can like a tuner all day cause hes a stand up guy and whatever else you like about them.... but what tune offers your car to run optimally.

Tune>tuner
JP, Terry has tuned me to the highest pump gas E92 in the world that we know of. I was a clutch away and MS109 from taking the ASR race gas / methanol record. I have the MS109 now, the Clutch Masters Twin Disk, and will attempt to take that record in my next dyno session. Honestly, I am not sure what else I could ask for? I have what I would consider a good knowledge of cars, but I am still not a tuner.
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