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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Fueling Resistors -- What Do They Do? Using This Data for Upgraded Turbos or Nitrous



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      05-14-2010, 11:03 AM   #45
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JP, Terry has tuned me to the highest pump gas E92 in the world that we know of. I was a clutch away and MS109 from taking the ASR race gas / methanol record. I have the MS109 now, the Clutch Masters Twin Disk, and will attempt to take that record in my next dyno session. Honestly, I am not sure what else I could ask for? I have what I would consider a good knowledge of cars, but I am still not a tuner.
Thats great, however things change, tunes change, conditions change. You can't log timing, you can't log actual throttle, you can't log accurate fuel presssure, you can't alter boost to your liking, hell it doesnt even remain constant, you can't make any off these changes yourself. If you are fine with that then more power to you, all im saying is that you should have a talk with terry and have him maybe explain with a little more detail what his scales/numbers truely do mean.
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      05-14-2010, 11:10 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Clap135 View Post
Thats great, however things change, tunes change, conditions change. You can't log timing, you can't log actual throttle, you can't log accurate fuel presssure, you can't alter boost to your liking, hell it doesnt even remain constant, you can't make any off these changes yourself. If you are fine with that then more power to you, all im saying is that you should have a talk with terry and have him maybe explain with a little more detail what his scales/numbers truely do mean.
That was my point.
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      05-14-2010, 11:11 AM   #47
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Thats great, however things change, tunes change, conditions change. You can't log timing, you can't log actual throttle, you can't log accurate fuel presssure, you can't alter boost to your liking, hell it doesnt even remain constant, you can't make any off these changes yourself. If you are fine with that then more power to you, all im saying is that you should have a talk with terry and have him maybe explain with a little more detail what his scales/numbers truely do mean.
Lol, before you jump up and down, I can log timing using BT, I can log actual throttle using BT, I can alter boost (not in a 30/30 spreadsheet which I don't want to do), I can log A/F with my FJO wideband, and I am finding out what the scaling of the FP means. 30/30 tables are definitely not for everyone.

This is unfortunately that this is turning into a sales pitch for another tune. This should not have with very useful data presented here.
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      05-14-2010, 11:13 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Former_Boosted_IS View Post
Lol, before you jump up and down, I can log timing using BT, I can log actual throttle using BT, I can alter boost (not in a 30/30 spreadsheet which I don't want to do), I can log A/F with my FJO wideband, and I am finding out what the scaling of the FP means. 30/30 tables are definitely not for everyone.

This is unfortunately that this is turning into a sales pitch for another tune. This should not have with very useful data presented here.
If you find strangling yourself with USB cables and other 3rd party hardware an IDEAL solution to an OPTIMAL tune.... The more power to you.

We're are simply letting you know what else is out there incase you want to take a different path. I dont want to dig any deeper into this discussion personally, we are only here to help. I dont run a CP-E standback so its far from a sales pitch. Its reality. You're not running a run of the mill setup, you dont plan on stopping where your currently at, why not run a product design for tackling every aspect of the tune, using REAL numbers, and real datalogging capability. Terry already got his money from you, he will be alright.

Playing devils advocate, the data is helpful only on the surface.
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      05-14-2010, 11:13 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Former_Boosted_IS View Post
Lol, before you jump up and down, I can log timing using BT, I can log actual throttle using BT, I can alter boost (not in a 30/30 spreadsheet which I don't want to do), I can log A/F with my FJO wideband, and I am finding out what the scaling of the FP means. 30/30 tables are definitely not for everyone.

This is unfortunately that this is turning into a sales pitch for another tune. This should not have with very useful data presented here.
Before I start jumping up and down?
good luck

as far as jp saying he doesnt run the cpe standback, im not currently running it either, currently i have the procede on my car to check a few things out. Personally I don't care what you run, I don't make money off this stuff and it doesnt affect me. Sales pitch. lol yea im posting procede logs and trying to sell you a standback lol
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      05-14-2010, 11:25 AM   #50
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Clap & JP, if you guys are happy with your current tunes than we are all in the same boat. I am happy with what I have too.
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      05-14-2010, 11:26 AM   #51
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I'm stock.... But good luck to you man, the knowledge is out there now. If you wanted an all in one product, that uses actual (correct) figures, and has complete control (well atleast more control)... you know where to go.
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      05-14-2010, 12:08 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Clap135 View Post
Thats great, however things change, tunes change, conditions change. You can't log timing, you can't log actual throttle, you can't log accurate fuel presssure, you can't alter boost to your liking, hell it doesnt even remain constant, you can't make any off these changes yourself. If you are fine with that then more power to you, all im saying is that you should have a talk with terry and have him maybe explain with a little more detail what his scales/numbers truely do mean.
Fuel pressure is sampled off the high pressure sensor. Currently the JB3 can't log ignition timing or wideband air/fuel. FWIW no system currently logs wideband air/fuel. Both are in the works for the JB3 though. As OP has found being able to swap the fueling resistors is extremely useful for higher HP guys.

Getting back to fuel pressure the sensor reads 0-5v which is converted to 0-1023 in the software and scaled so the maximum (5v) is 20 in the reader software. BMS has not converted it to PSI yet but the actual fuel pressure PSI doesn't really matter. It's just a relative measure.

Values of over 14 @ WOT are generally very strong. At higher power levels you will drop down to 12 or so. Lower than that and you normally start to lean out. We'll see what OPs testing with a stand-alone wideband shows!

Mike
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      05-14-2010, 12:13 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com View Post
Fuel pressure is sampled off the high pressure sensor. Currently the JB3 can't log ignition timing or wideband air/fuel. FWIW no system currently logs wideband air/fuel. Both are in the works for the JB3 though. As OP has found being able to swap the fueling resistors is extremely useful for higher HP guys.

Getting back to fuel pressure the sensor reads 0-5v which is converted to 0-1023 in the software and scaled so the maximum (5v) is 20 in the reader software. BMS has not converted it to PSI yet but the actual fuel pressure PSI doesn't really matter. It's just a relative measure.

Values of over 14 @ WOT are generally very strong. At higher power levels you will drop down to 12 or so. Lower than that and you normally start to lean out. We'll see what OPs testing with a stand-alone wideband shows!

Mike
I said im done with this thread, but saying actual fp psi doesnt matter is wrong to say at best lol. why would drop at higher power levels? 14 is strong for what? A stock car? a modded car? What exactly is your defination of strong fuel pressure. This is exactly what I mean about these arbitrary numbers.

The op states 760-780 hwere is getting these numbers from? If it logs 0-20 with 20 being 1023 and 1023 being x psi lol. Then 780 or say 800 of 1023 is roughly 4/5, so roughly 4 volts? Scale the software lol Might as well use sad/frown/happy faces. What is the maxium pressure allowable based on your understanding of this system? Can you achieve that pressure without triggering some sort of pressure release valve?
As far as piggys not reading widebands, thats incorrect. Maybe yours doesnt, or shivs doesnt.

Last edited by Clap135; 05-14-2010 at 12:31 PM.
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      05-14-2010, 12:35 PM   #54
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I said im done with this thread, but saying actual fp psi doesnt matter is wrong to say at best lol. why would drop at higher power levels? 14 is strong for what? A stock car? a modded car? What exactly is your defination of strong fuel pressure. This is exactly what I mean about these arbitrary numbers.

The op states 760-780 hwere is getting these numbers from? If it logs 0-20 with 20 being 1023 and 1023 being x psi lol. Then 780 or say 800 of 1023 is roughly 4/5, so roughly 4 volts? Scale the software lol Might as well use sad/frown/happy faces. What is the maxium pressure allowable based on your understanding of this system? Can you achieve that pressure without triggering some sort of pressure release valve?
As far as piggys not reading widebands, thats incorrect. Maybe yours doesnt, or shivs doesnt.
IIRC the PROcede also just shows 0-5v for fuel pressure. I don't know what CPE shows. Did they map out voltage to PSI? It can be mapped out easily but who really cares if the fuel pressure is 3400psi or 3100psi? Do you even know what the stock pressure is? That moves around all over the place too.

What matters is how it changes under heavier power levels. If you run 14 normally, add nitrous and suddenly struggle to keep 10, you know the system is leaning out. If you want to know the stock voltage do a map 0 run. I think its around 10 (e.g. 2.5 volts).

There are several aspects of the JB3 that work out very well for him:

1) Allows him to swap out the fueling resistors
2) Allows him to adjust air/fuel ratio scaling and shape the entire air/fuel curve to his liking with the firmware being tested now
3) Gives a quick reference on fuel pressure in every log
4) Allows him to customize a minimum fuel pressure value. Below that value triggers a switch to map 0

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      05-14-2010, 12:37 PM   #55
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IIRC the PROcede also just shows 0-5v for fuel pressure. I don't know what CPE shows. Did they map out voltage to PSI? It can be mapped out easily but who really cares if the fuel pressure is 3400psi or 3100psi? Do you even know what the stock pressure is? That moves around all over the place too.

What matters is how it changes under heavier power levels. If you run 14 normally, add nitrous and suddenly struggle to keep 10, you know the system is leaning out. If you want to know the stock voltage do a map 0 run. I think its around 10 (e.g. 2.5 volts).

There are several aspects of the JB3 that work out very well for him:

1) Allows him to swap out the fueling resistors
2) Allows him to adjust air/fuel ratio scaling and shape the entire air/fuel curve to his liking with the firmware being tested now
3) Gives a quick reference on fuel pressure in every log
4) Allows him to customize a minimum fuel pressure value. Below that value triggers a switch to map 0

Mike
im just going to assume you didn't read the thread, so I wont bother retyping half of it.
questions about fuel control were already talked about
questions about stock pressure were already talked about
And if it doesnt matter if pressure is 3100 or 3400, then knock yourself out. You responded to my post without actually answering anything.
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      05-14-2010, 01:10 PM   #56
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I'm stock.... But good luck to you man, the knowledge is out there now. If you wanted an all in one product, that uses actual (correct) figures, and has complete control (well atleast more control)... you know where to go.
I'm sure your comments are well meaning but its not really as black and white as you want to paint it.

The CPE lets you adjust the air/fuel ratio but doesn't have ignition advance or wideband logging. Does it even have fuel pressure mapped out to PSI? That is easy to do for any system. Just multiply the voltage by some conversion factor. Perhaps 680 per volt. I don't know how the fueling resistors are setup in the CPE so can't comment whether they are easy to change or not.

The V4 logs timing advance but doesn't let you change the fueling resistors (stuck with 4.7k ~13.5:1 air/fuel in the mid), and doesn't let you reshape the air/fuel curve. Fuel pressure is also just mapped out to 0-5v and you need to enter a conversion factor like you would with any system. It's fuel pressure safety is not adjustable. It doesn't log wideband air/fuel ratios. Sure its coming but its coming for JB3 too.

The JB3 allows swapping of the resistors (can target 12:1 in the midrange) and setting air/fuel curve tuning but doesn't have ignition advance or wide band logging (it's being worked on now). Fuel pressure is shown as voltage like the other two systems and you enter a conversion factor to get to PSI. The fuel pressure safety is adjustable. FWIW I'll ask BMS to add the FP volt-psi factor for the next interface release.

In the end you have three systems all capable of doing the job and all currently in the process of evolving to do it better. For OP the JB3 happens to be working very well. Well enough to set the pump gas dyno record, produce some really nice air/fuel curves normally reserved for flash tunes, etc.

Mike
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      05-14-2010, 01:12 PM   #57
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Good info FB as always. Interesting to see this data..
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      05-14-2010, 01:12 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com View Post
I'm sure your comments are well meaning but its not really as black and white as you want to paint it.

The CPE lets you adjust the air/fuel ratio but doesn't have ignition advance or wideband logging. Does it even have fuel pressure mapped out to PSI? That is easy to do for any system. Just multiply the voltage by some conversion factor. Perhaps 680 per volt. I don't know how the fueling resistors are setup in the CPE so can't comment whether they are easy to change or not.

The V4 logs timing advance but doesn't let you change the fueling resistors (stuck with 4.7k ~13.5:1 air/fuel in the mid), and doesn't let you reshape the air/fuel curve. Fuel pressure is also just mapped out to 0-5v and you need to enter a conversion factor like you would with any system. It's fuel pressure safety is not adjustable. It doesn't log wideband air/fuel ratios. Sure its coming but its coming for JB3 too.

The JB3 allows swapping of the resistors (can target 12:1 in the midrange) and setting air/fuel curve tuning but doesn't have ignition advance or wide band logging (it's being worked on now). Fuel pressure is shown as voltage like the other two systems and you enter a conversion factor to get to PSI. The fuel pressure safety is adjustable. FWIW I'll ask BMS to add the FP volt-psi factor for the next interface release.

In the end you have three systems all capable of doing the job and all currently in the process of evolving to do it better. For OP the JB3 happens to be working very well. Well enough to set the pump gas dyno record, produce some really nice air/fuel curves normally reserved for flash tunes, etc.

Mike
The cpe unit doesnt have timing control, advance or retard? Once again you are wrong
No wideband reading capabilities? You are once again wrong.
It has fuel pressure mapped out in volts and psi.
No resistors need to be changed. You can dial in whatever you want as long as the fuel system supports it.

More bold claims without knowing what your talking about.
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      05-14-2010, 01:20 PM   #59
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Can we not open up the procede unit and swap out resistors same way as on the jb3, if we had to? is this even the way to do it on procede if required?
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      05-14-2010, 01:28 PM   #60
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Mike...you really should read before you post. I have a standback on my car and you running your mouth about things you are clueless about just makes you look bad. Want me to post logs of everything so you can see it?
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      05-14-2010, 01:28 PM   #61
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The cpe unit doesnt have timing control, advance or retard? Once again you are wrong
No wideband reading capabilities? You are once again wrong.
It has fuel pressure mapped out in volts and psi.
No resistors need to be changed. You can dial in whatever you want as long as the fuel system supports it.

More bold claims without knowing what your talking about.
Dude what's with the aggressive attitude towards me over the last few days? Have i done something to offend you? I am starting to think my existence seems to offend you so i apologize for being here i guess.

To answer your point I said it doesn't have timing advance logging. So you can log timing advance without using a BT tool? It has fully functional CAN logging? If so I stand corrected as i never said i was an expert on that platfrom. On the air/fuel you say that but air/fuel is limited by fueling resistors. What resistors does it use and are they easy to change? You said it has wideband but again without CAN you can't read the stock wideband sensors. So you are just talking about an external sensor like OP is using? I'm not suggesting the CPE isn't a great setup just pointing out nothing is really perfect for this yet.

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      05-14-2010, 01:29 PM   #62
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various things you can log, there are many more, however the purpose of this screen shot(taken back in the day) wasn't to show what it logs.
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      05-14-2010, 01:34 PM   #63
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Mike...you really should read before you post. I have a standback on my car and you running your mouth about things you are clueless about just makes you look bad. Want me to post logs of everything so you can see it?
Actually that would be extremely helpful! I was under the impression CPE did not have CAN and thus could not log timing advance, factory wideband sensors, etc. So please post up a log and set the record straight. Like I said I don't know much about the CPE platform so if you guys want to talk about it then take the lead on that.

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      05-14-2010, 01:35 PM   #64
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Dude what's with the aggressive attitude towards me over the last few days? Have i done something to offend you? I am starting to think my existence seems to offend you so i apologize for being here i guess.

To answer your point I said it doesn't have timing advance logging. So you can log timing advance without using a BT tool? It has fully functional CAN logging? If so I stand corrected as i never said i was an expert on that platfrom. On the air/fuel you say that but air/fuel is limited by fueling resistors. What resistors does it use and are they easy to change? You said it has wideband but again without CAN you can't read the stock wideband sensors. So you are just talking about an external sensor like OP is using? I'm not suggesting the CPE isn't a great setup just pointing out nothing is really perfect for this yet.

Mike
Aggressive attitude? You are blabing some random bullshit about a product which is inaccurate. If you I go blabbling off random bullshit about the jb3 would you be happy? Yes you can log timing, how the hell do you think the procede did it prior to Canbus days? How do you think they altered it prior to canbus? As far as the resistors used in the cpe unit, I'm not the EE behind the product, so you'll have to call them. All i know is that I can max out the fuel system without changing anything out. As far as wideband, cpe can pick up the stock ones CANbus is int he works for the single turbo upgrade. Piror to canbus you can input whatever sensor you want and log it with the unit.
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      05-14-2010, 01:36 PM   #65
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Actually that would be extremely helpful! I was under the impression CPE did not have CAN and thus could not log timing advance, factory wideband sensors, etc. So please post up a log and set the record straight. Like I said I don't know much about the CPE platform so if you guys want to talk about it then take the lead on that.

Mike
Once again, didn't the procede log timing prior to the CANbus feature?
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      05-14-2010, 01:37 PM   #66
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various things you can log, there are many more, however the purpose of this screen shot(taken back in the day) wasn't to show what it logs.
Thanks for that but it doesn't really answer any of my questions.

1) Does it log timing advance via CAN to avoid drowning in USB cables as JPSLICK mentioned?
2) Does it log the factory wideband air/fuel sensor or is that channel just for picking up an external sensor/conversion box like an LM1?
3) What are the fueling resistors (e.g. 1k, 4.7k, 5.1k) and can they be easily changed?

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