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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Fueling Resistors -- What Do They Do? Using This Data for Upgraded Turbos or Nitrous



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      05-14-2010, 01:41 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com View Post
Thanks for that but it doesn't really answer any of my questions.

1) Does it log timing advance via CAN to avoid drowning in USB cables as JPSLICK mentioned?
2) Does it log the factory wideband air/fuel sensor or is that channel just for picking up an external sensor/conversion box like an LM1?
3) What are the fueling resistors (e.g. 1k, 4.7k, 5.1k) and can they be easily changed?

Mike
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1. There one usb cable, and you can log timing without CAN, like i said 3 times now, the procede did it back in the day prior to CANbus.
2. Previously channel only, CANbus, both.
3. Read first, like already said, call them and find out. I am not the EE behind their product.
4. I answered your questions, can you answer mine?
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      05-14-2010, 01:53 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clap135 View Post
Aggressive attitude? You are blabing some random bullshit about a product which is inaccurate. If you I go blabbling off random bullshit about the jb3 would you be happy? Yes you can log timing, how the hell do you think the procede did it prior to Canbus days? How do you think they altered it prior to canbus? As far as the resistors used in the cpe unit, I'm not the EE behind the product, so you'll have to call them. All i know is that I can max out the fuel system without changing anything out. As far as wideband, cpe can pick up the stock ones CANbus is int he works for the single turbo upgrade. Piror to canbus you can input whatever sensor you want and log it with the unit.
I was referring to both this thread and the one from yesterday where a lot of posts were deleted. As a customer I don't think I would care what people said about any tune, but as a vendor who sells the JB3 I have a vested interested in keeping the information accurate so you are correct in that regard.

Prior to the CAN days the PROcede didn't log timing advance. You used an external tool like the BT or an OBDII scanning tool. You keep saying I've said inaccurate things about the CPE which is possible as I don't know it very well. But so far everything you've posted has more or less confirmed what I said. No timing advance logging, no factory wideband pickup, etc. So it has the same logging limitation the JB3 has in terms of not being able to log CAN data.

Mike
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      05-14-2010, 01:56 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Former_Boosted_IS View Post
Does anyone know what the stock fueling resistors are on the Procede? If they are around 5k ohm, then that limits how much you can bias the O2 sensors. That limits how much additional fuel you can request period. Up top is not where the issue lies because the 5k ohm resistors can more than bias the O2 sensors enough to get a safe 12.0 - 12.5:1 AFR, but at around 4k rpms where the car is at peak torque you are heavily limited with 5k ohm resistors. I suspect you are running near 14.0:1 at peak torque and I am not even remotely comfortable with that to be honest. Next, which sensor you log should have no effect on the ability of the tune to add fuel, but the fueling resistor does.

Honestly, I have never said a negative thing about Shiv or the Procede and never will. He seems to have a great product and a fantastic customer base. Like everyone else on the forums I considered both tunes and found the JB3 to meet my personal needs best. Terry has been absolutely incredibly flexible in working with me to adapt his tune to meet my needs. He emails me with 10 minutes of sending him an email whether it is during the week or on the weekend. I just feel like he has earned my business and I am lucky to have him as my tuner. Like every single product I review, this is just my opinion and I have never pushed it on anyone.
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      05-14-2010, 01:56 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com View Post
I was referring to both this thread and the one from yesterday where a lot of your posts were deleted. As a customer I don't think I would care what people said about any tune, but as a vendor who sells the JB3 I have a vested interested in keeping the information accurate so you are correct in that regard.

Prior to the CAN days the PROcede didn't log timing advance. You used an external tool like the BT or an OBDII scanning tool. You keep saying I've said inaccurate things about the CPE which is possible as I don't know it very well. But so far everything you've posted has more or less confirmed what I said. No timing advance logging, no factory wideband pickup, etc. So it has the same logging limitation the JB3 has in terms of not being able to log CAN data.

Mike
Honestly, im trying to be nice. But did you read the thread. The cpe unit logs/changes timing without CANbus. I am also pretty sure v2/v3 did as shiv was knocking on terry for timing control for years now. Read the thread. Actually better yet, don't read it.
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      05-14-2010, 02:04 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clap135 View Post
Honestly, im trying to be nice. But did you read the thread. The cpe unit logs/changes timing without CANbus. I am also pretty sure v2/v3 did as shiv was knocking on terry for timing control for years now. Read the thread. Actually better yet, don't read it.
Maybe you are mixing up CPS offsetting with timing advance logging? I am not saying the CPE or V4 does not CPS offset LOL. Of course they can log how much offset they add. I am asking if the CPE can log timing advance. You'd do that with CAN or maybe with a plug wire pickup comparing that with DTC on the CPS sensor. You tell me you're the one saying it does it.

Mike
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      05-14-2010, 02:09 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com View Post
Maybe you are mixing up CPS offsetting with timing advance logging? I am not saying the CPE or V4 does not CPS offset LOL. Of course they can log how much offset they add. I am asking if the CPE can log timing advance. You'd do that with CAN or maybe with a plug wire pickup comparing that with DTC on the CPS sensor. You tell me you're the one saying it does it.

Mike
For the last time, the cpe standback, LOGS timing, ADVANCES timing, RETARDS timing and did this wihout CANbus. It taps the cps sensor and is able to log everything, and make offset changes. How it does it, like i said, I am not the EE behind their product, call them

I will dig up logs for you from back in the day where I was logging timing at the track with the standback. Hopefully I still have them
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      05-14-2010, 02:19 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clap135 View Post
For the last time, the cpe standback, LOGS timing, ADVANCES timing, RETARDS timing and did this wihout CANbus. It taps the cps sensor and is able to log everything, and make offset changes. How it does it, like i said, I am not the EE behind their product, call them

I will dig up logs for you from back in the day where I was logging timing at the track with the standback. Hopefully I still have them
Yep... sounds like the Standback taps into an ignition coil. And references the spark event with crank position to determine relative timing advance. Forgive Mike as he's not used to such technology

Shiv
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      05-14-2010, 02:21 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
Yep... sounds like the Standback taps into an ignition coil. And references the spark event with crank position to determine relative timing advance. Forgive Mike as he's not used to such technology

Shiv
Holy shit, THANK you. I was getting antsy cause I can't explain how it does it, but I can show that it does, however I don't have my tunning lap with me at work. People wonder why I get an attitude lol.
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      05-14-2010, 02:36 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clap135 View Post
For the last time, the cpe standback, LOGS timing, ADVANCES timing, RETARDS timing and did this wihout CANbus. It taps the cps sensor and is able to log everything, and make offset changes. How it does it, like i said, I am not the EE behind their product, call them

I will dig up logs for you from back in the day where I was logging timing at the track with the standback. Hopefully I still have them
1) We agree on the CPS offset. Was never in dispute.
2) You can't log timing advance off the CPS sensor alone. It would need a reference like a coil pack pickup. Which it might have. Can you post up a CPE log from your car showing a timing curve like you've posted with your PROcede? **edit** I see Shiv has chimed in and confirmed the reference signal to the coil


Quote:
Originally Posted by clap135
I've done extensive work with cpe regarding fuel pressure changes/monitoring/pump development on my previous DI car and some on this car. If my memory severs me right stock fuel pressure hits 2200 2400psi down low and falls down to 1600ish on a bone stock car. Yes the fuel pressure drops as rpms rise. Once I get home Ill jump on my tuning lap top to see if i can post some logs for you, but def ask terry about the scaling he is using because those numbers are not accurate.

There is also two ways to request more fuel which both alter fuel pressure. The standback alters the o2 signal to request more fuel and it also alters the actual fuel pressure. I am not sure how the jb3 does it, but both solution raise pressure as expected, however in a different way.
The o2 biasing increases the injector pulse-width and the fuel pressure alteration crams more fuel through the existing IPW. All three piggybacks alter both systems. Fuel pressure is limited by what the pump can safely put out and whatever magic the tuners want to work with the curve they dial in. Normally they raise fuel pressure slightly and then hold that closer to redline. The o2 biasing is limited by the amount of current you sneak out of the o2 sensor circuit, which is limited by the resistors you use. So being able to change those resistors is a really nice advantage for tuning higher power levels. That was OPs point. I've never seen a wideband air/fuel log showing 10:1 up top with any other piggyback. It's richer than most would want to go but the flexibility is there...

Mike
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      05-14-2010, 02:38 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
Yep... sounds like the Standback taps into an ignition coil. And references the spark event with crank position to determine relative timing advance. Forgive Mike as he's not used to such technology

Shiv
You mean like a 1970s timing light? I asked that a few posts ago. So you are confirming that is what CPE does? At this point I'm just trying to understand what their setup is. It's not really documented anywhere.

Mike
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      05-14-2010, 02:42 PM   #77
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The reason you havn't seen 10s from piggy backs is because two get posted about on e90/n54. Probably the same reason why you have no clue how a standback works/logs/alters things to accomplish its goal. CPE is banned here for unknown reasons, so your best bet is to call them for more technical questions.

Is it just me or do the last two post sound "different"

All i can tell you is that cpe has wires tapped into all four connectors of the ecu, I believe when I had the jb3, two were used, and I never really checked on the procede unit.
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      05-14-2010, 02:58 PM   #78
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I just came across this thread.
Of course GIAC doesn't use resisters, but their AtoFs have always been richer.
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      05-14-2010, 03:06 PM   #79
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to lighten up the mood, Im sure all parties involved will get a kick out of this

Hes running a similar nitrous set up to hotrod lol
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      05-14-2010, 03:09 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. 5 View Post
I just came across this thread.
Of course GIAC doesn't use resisters, but their AtoFs have always been richer.
Has GIAC mentioned anything about running out of fuel? Any possibility you can log fuel pressure/afr with your bt tool being that your around 440whp according to your dyno.
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      05-14-2010, 04:48 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5soko335i View Post
Good info FB as always. Interesting to see this data..
5soko335i, thanks my friend. I will just start a new thread in the future. This one has turned into a mud slinging match.
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      05-14-2010, 06:29 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Former_Boosted_IS View Post
5soko335i, thanks my friend. I will just start a new thread in the future. This one has turned into a mud slinging match.
Usually what happens here nowadays. Not to mention hate on every record car/run that isn't running their preferred tune/setup.
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      05-14-2010, 08:28 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ianthegreat View Post
Usually what happens here nowadays. Not to mention hate on every record car/run that isn't running their preferred tune/setup.
True but this time around there is a twist thrown into the drama, its a CPE customer throwing down with JB tune!
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      05-15-2010, 12:20 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clap135 View Post
to lighten up the mood, Im sure all parties involved will get a kick out of this

Hes running a similar nitrous set up to hotrod lol
BWAHAHAH did you see that exhaust... sh*t was glowing!
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      05-15-2010, 12:45 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clap135 View Post
Has GIAC mentioned anything about running out of fuel? Any possibility you can log fuel pressure/afr with your bt tool being that your around 440whp according to your dyno.
I believe they've mentioned it in the past but I can't recall.
I don't know how to log the fuel pressure with BT tool.

This is a really interesting topic.
I think it's great that the richer AtoFs can be achieved by using different resistors, but I've always been curious with the AtoFs with the piggies. Usually, AtoFs get richer when demanding more boost to keep the EGTs low but the pigies AtoF has always been aorund the same as stock.
If one were to use a resistor which resulted in a richer AtoF, would there be a loss of power given everything else equal? I would think so.
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