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      07-11-2010, 10:45 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by demon- View Post
I drive a e60, hifi/non-logic.
Thanks. Have upgraded several of those.

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Well it's not that easy. 98% of the 4" woofers made are too deep to mount into my doors.
Uh, that's why I told you about a set that do.

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IThe specs on those rainbows you suggested actually look really good.

I have some focal components that really don't do it for me. They have a freq resp. at 120 Hz - 2.2 kHz those rainbows are 75-30,000 Hz.
I'm afraid I'm going to strongly disagree with a lot of what you think you know. Those specs don't mean a damned thing about how the speaker sounds, and comparing them is a waste of time - seriously. No frreq response without a stated deviation means anything, and most of the ones with the stated deviation are still made up by the MarCom department. Only certain engineering=driven companies publish useful specs.


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My favorite components were cdt es-62's with silk tweets. I strongly doubt a shallow 4" driver can take the place of a quality 6.5" midrange.
Actually, a 6.5" sucks as a midrange, ESPECIALLY off-axis. When a piston driver is playing notes that become high enough, relative to its diameter, the off-axis response decreases relative to is on-axis response. A 6.5 is good as a mid-bass.

Here is a freq response plot for a 6.5 driver from a very reputable engineering-driven manufacturer, Scan-Speak.



Note how the 0 degree, 30 degree, and 60 degree lines diverge above 1K. This isn't the speaker's fault - ALL 6.5 dynamic drivers suffer from this divergence. It's the laws of physics, Captain.

Midrange extends to 3K, and many tweeters won't play that low (the ones I like go lower, but many won't - and Focal definitely won't).


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I strongly doubt a shallow 4" driver can take the place of a quality 6.5" midrange.
Actually, a 6.5 can't take the place of a quality 4", no matter how you tweak it, especially if it's off axis. You are stuck on the 6/tweeter two-way model and you may want to look at the midwoofer/4" mid/tweeter 3-way model.



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Maybe I should fabricate some kick panels.
For your midbass, maybe.



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I will be adding an ms-8 eventually. Right now I am just struggling to find a setup I feel confident enough with to commit and move forward with my limited options.
You seem to be making this harder than it really is.



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I really have no desire for a subwoofer or a mono signal. In a lot of my music all a subwoofer picks up is a repetitive bass drum and becomes overwhelming and distracting. It sounds like shit to me
If a subwoofer plays your music and sounds like shit to you, your subwoofer is set up wrong (98% likelihood) or you really don't like your music the way it is recorded. I'm going with the probable cause, that you've heard poorly set-up subs.



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I don't want to drive around with 150w of bass drum constantly thumping up from under my ass.
I have 150W going to SWS-8 playing 150 and down at the moment, and I have absolutely no sensation that they are under my ass. Given the transfer function of leather, foam, and my ass, I suspect it would serve as a really good lowpass filter to any midrange I tried to run through it.



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A few Jehnert dealers in the UK told me they don't ship to the states. They make some really nice stuff. Do you know if they have any dealers in the US?
I guess you should contact 6spdcoupe, now, about Jehnert. He hasn't argued with you. He is also the guy you should contact about Rainbow, now, too.

Oh, and Earthquake, as I've said many times before, is a peaky woofer. But it sounds pretty darned good in my car with good DSP, the test MS-8 I put in got them to sound really good when it was in there, and it does happen to be pretty durable as well as fitting really well.

I think the stamped-frame Morels are better sounding, but in those enclosures they need EQ too. I think everything does. The Rainbow WOB200 is probably nice but I think needs a highpass.

You might want to go to Beach Autosound and talk to Tom.
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      07-12-2010, 02:19 AM   #68
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Thanks for putting up with me. I'm just a little stressed from walking into this install blindly. This is not an easy car to do an install on. Your feedback is helpful because I have no other source of information on this besides scouring the net. I think I might have derailed a bit. I was just wondering, in your opinion, if putting a mid-bass (possibly part of a 3 way w/ 4" & tweets in the doors) under the seats would yield a good results. I have seen CDT do an install on a showcar, a BMW X3, like this http://caraudiomag.com/articles/cdt-audio-bmw-x3. Since I don't even want low pass, it appeals to me. I know the under seat speaker placement is meant for a sub. Do you think that a 6.5" mid bass would be ineffective?

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If a subwoofer plays your music and sounds like shit to you, your subwoofer is set up wrong (98% likelihood) or you really don't like your music the way it is recorded. I'm going with the probable cause, that you've heard poorly set-up subs.
I'm not new to car/home audio. I'm just new to BMW. I am composer, multi instrumentalist, and speaker nut. I understand a sub is a very important component for some people. It might seem strange to you but it is my preference. If I start listening to dance music, rap, or desire a full spectrum to accurately reproduce a classical symphony then I will no doubt need to start using subs again. Installing a sub woofer is your average persons idea of a stereo upgrade. I focus on mids and highs.

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Actually, a 6.5" sucks as a midrange It's the laws of physics, Captain.
I can't argue with science, but I don't use the laws of physics to decide what I like. I don't use charts when I'm listening to music, I use my ears.

Last edited by demon-; 07-12-2010 at 05:01 AM.
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      07-12-2010, 11:28 AM   #69
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Any thoughts on installing the MS8 on a 2010 E90 with base audio with the Alpine upgrade kit installed? Seems the Alpine kit improves the door 4" and adds tweeters, with the MS8 driving those can the Alpine amp drive the OEM underseat woofers with decent results or would replacing those also with SW8's and driving them of the Alpine amp be good?
I'm trying to see about a several step approach to improving the stereo, thinking install the Alpine kit, stop there if it's good enough but if I wanted to go further install the MS8.
Thanks for any answers.
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      07-12-2010, 12:04 PM   #70
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Any thoughts on installing the MS8 on a 2010 E90 with base audio with the Alpine upgrade kit installed? Seems the Alpine kit improves the door 4" and adds tweeters, with the MS8 driving those can the Alpine amp drive the OEM underseat woofers with decent results or would replacing those also with SW8's and driving them of the Alpine amp be good?
I'm trying to see about a several step approach to improving the stereo, thinking install the Alpine kit, stop there if it's good enough but if I wanted to go further install the MS8.
Thanks for any answers.
IMO, use the money for the Alpine upgrade (some $400 at the cheapest place in Denmark, of all places) and buy a set of Rainbows components for the doors and a pair of Kicker SSMB8 as woofers. Invest an extra $200 in the Individual Audio OEM coaxial center speaker, dash grille and tweeter pods. Then use the MS-8 built in amps to drive all your speakers.

That should be enough to impress you.
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      07-12-2010, 12:22 PM   #71
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Any thoughts on installing the MS8 on a 2010 E90 with base audio with the Alpine upgrade kit installed?
Yes. I think it's a horrible idea.

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I'm trying to see about a several step approach to improving the stereo, thinking install the Alpine kit, stop there if it's good enough but if I wanted to go further install the MS8.
Thanks for any answers.
Incrementalism has more to do with our personal emotional comfort than it does with effective audio system design, I am afraid. It feels like we are taking less of a risk, but we are actually limiting our potential reward, by a great degree.
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      07-12-2010, 02:45 PM   #72
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In terms of having perfectly matched sets of speakers, with high efficiency (and therefore max output from the internal ms8 amp) I would recommend a set of three oem mids and tweeters from for the L7 system. However I have no clue how much that would cost compared to aftermarket speakers and obviously you should not spend more money on that combo compared to what Technic suggested. Sometimes you can find these speakers used so it would be worth taking a look.

The ms8 has enough power to achieve acceptable volume levels with the oem speakers but I would be skeptical about aftermarket sets with inefficient crossovers and twice the impedance.

The Kicker midbass drivers, I am guessing, will surely need an aftermarket amp sooner or later so you can push them to their true potential.

It is a good start though to have the ms8 power everything as the sound quality will be there for you to experience, but perhaps not the volume.
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      07-14-2010, 07:51 PM   #73
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Just left myself a voice mail on my home phone.......no echo!!!
Well, it was nice while it lasted. I now have the dreaded BT echo issue. Turns out this only affects the person on the other end, not your own voice or how it sounds to the other party, or how you hear the other party's voice...it is only the person on the other end hearing their own echo...

This is something I missed by only testing a voicemail I left on my own answering machine. JBL supposedly has a fix in the works, we'll see.

In the meantime, it's not really a big deal since I am not taking phone calls anyway cause the music just sounds too damn good to be interrupted!
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      07-15-2010, 07:50 PM   #74
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I may be stoned for suggesting this, but would the ms-8 be a good match with the bsw speakers or are they really not much better than stock. The only reason I mention this is in an attempt to use the internal amp of the ms-8, the most efficient speaker would be the best. However, I need to go to separates and away from this crappy coaxial setup in the front doors, so new speakers are a requirement in the front. Another reason is to sidestep all the mounting troubles. I would love to use rainbows or morels but I am concerned that the volume level would be meh and that there may be mounting issues in the front doors. I understand that I should stop being a cheap ass and just add an amp as well and deal with the mounting issues for aftermarket speakers. For the record I have en e92 m3 with the 6 speaker stereo. (probably the worst sounding car stereo in recent memory.) You all seem to know your stuff so go easy with your responses. Thanks.
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      07-16-2010, 07:12 AM   #75
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I may be stoned for suggesting this, but would the ms-8 be a good match with the bsw speakers or are they really not much better than stock. The only reason I mention this is in an attempt to use the internal amp of the ms-8, the most efficient speaker would be the best. However, I need to go to separates and away from this crappy coaxial setup in the front doors, so new speakers are a requirement in the front. Another reason is to sidestep all the mounting troubles. I would love to use rainbows or morels but I am concerned that the volume level would be meh and that there may be mounting issues in the front doors. I understand that I should stop being a cheap ass and just add an amp as well and deal with the mounting issues for aftermarket speakers. For the record I have en e92 m3 with the 6 speaker stereo. (probably the worst sounding car stereo in recent memory.) You all seem to know your stuff so go easy with your responses. Thanks.
I don't think you will get stoned, but there are some strong opinions here, some based on experience and repeating the same answers from that experience over and over.

If you have an E92 M3, then you should have at least what I have in my '11 E92 M3, which is the HiFi system. This would include seperate components in the doors, with a tweeter in the sail panel (the little triangular piece at the top front of the door) and a 4" mid in the front of the door, two 8" (mid bass) woofers, in the floor under each front seat, and two 4" mids over each of the side armrests in the backseats.

The BSW solution has been favorably reviewed in Roundel, but BSW is a large purchaser of advertising in the mag, so you might want to bear that in mind.

The BSW solution has been done by some members, and they seemed pretty happy with the results, search out their results, so I expect it is an improvement. When someone from BSW tried describe what it is they are selling equipment wise, BSW was a litle sketchy when challenged for details.

I would be curious to see what Technic and VP (and 808MGUY) would consider the optimum speaker install for our HiFi system utilizing the MS-8. But I have bluetooth, and there is currently a glitch in the MS-8 software that causes an echo on the receiving end when using a bluetooth connected phone from your car, so they need to fix that before I would consider it.

You might want to start here for some background info:
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=407085
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      07-16-2010, 10:53 AM   #76
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I will say that the BSW speakers are better than stock.

I have said before, for using BSW speakers in applications where they are not powered by a BMW system, you would want to ask BSW.

My understanding is that those speakers are intended for use on BMW amplification and with BMW acoustic processing, and if that is correct, I'm not clear on the benefit of your plan. BSW speakers seem to be intended for someone who's NOT spending on amplifiers and processors?
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      07-16-2010, 11:02 AM   #77
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I don't think you will get stoned, but there are some strong opinions here, some based on experience and repeating the same answers from that experience over and over.

If you have an E92 M3, then you should have at least what I have in my '11 E92 M3, which is the HiFi system. This would include seperate components in the doors, with a tweeter in the sail panel (the little triangular piece at the top front of the door) and a 4" mid in the front of the door, two 8" (mid bass) woofers, in the floor under each front seat, and two 4" mids over each of the side armrests in the backseats.

The BSW solution has been favorably reviewed in Roundel, but BSW is a large purchaser of advertising in the mag, so you might want to bear that in mind.

The BSW solution has been done by some members, and they seemed pretty happy with the results, search out their results, so I expect it is an improvement. When someone from BSW tried describe what it is they are selling equipment wise, BSW was a litle sketchy when challenged for details.

I would be curious to see what Technic and VP (and 808MGUY) would consider the optimum speaker install for our HiFi system utilizing the MS-8. But I have bluetooth, and there is currently a glitch in the MS-8 software that causes an echo on the receiving end when using a bluetooth connected phone from your car, so they need to fix that before I would consider it.

You might want to start here for some background info:
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=407085
Unfortunately, I have a decontented stereo that does not have the factory tweeters in the sail panels. Also, I do not have bluetooth. My M3 is pretty stripped. Based on what VP said, I am just going to add an amp and do something decent in the front instead of messing with the BSW's. Technic previously mentioned rainbow separates for the front. Does anyone know how much modification, other than adaptors, is required to fit these in an e92?
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      07-16-2010, 11:35 AM   #78
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Unfortunately, I have a decontented stereo that does not have the factory tweeters in the sail panels. Also, I do not have bluetooth. My M3 is pretty stripped. Based on what VP said, I am just going to add an amp and do something decent in the front instead of messing with the BSW's. Technic previously mentioned rainbow separates for the front. Does anyone know how much modification, other than adaptors, is required to fit these in an e92?
I have just the default stereo in my M3, not the upgraded "Enhanced Premium Sound", so you should have the same stereo. You are in the U.S., right? In the 335i they deleted the front tweeters IIRC.
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      07-16-2010, 01:45 PM   #79
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Unfortunately, mine is "special." Call it a production error or whatever, but I have less than the basic stereo for my 2010. I approached BMWNA about it and they said that they reserve the right to change things mid year and that I was basically SOL. So, as hard as it is to believe, I have no tweeters in the sails. So basically you take an already sucky stereo and make it suckier. Way to go BMW.
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      07-16-2010, 02:31 PM   #80
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Unfortunately, mine is "special." Call it a production error or whatever, but I have less than the basic stereo for my 2010. I approached BMWNA about it and they said that they reserve the right to change things mid year and that I was basically SOL. So, as hard as it is to believe, I have no tweeters in the sails. So basically you take an already sucky stereo and make it suckier. Way to go BMW.
I think that you can start with the MS-8 built in amps, a component set in the front doors, new shallow woofers under the seats (SSMB8 if you can find them on eBay; they are very sensitive and they can sound decent with 20W RMS) and the OEM Individual center speaker.

That should be a very straight forward installation as long as the front speakers are shallow enough for your E92 door panels. The SSMB8 require a .75" spacer that you can make easily from MDF. You could try the Rainbow W 200 X-Plain woofers, but I don't know how they will sound in the OEM enclosure; I would guess that they should sound similar to the SSMB8 as the specs are very similar.

I have the MS-8 and it really sounds great with just the auto-tuning but it really needs a center speaker to sound that great. No BT echo in my setup either, but I'm not running the internal amps, though.
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      07-16-2010, 04:07 PM   #81
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Thanks for the advice. I think that is the route I am heading.
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      07-17-2010, 11:39 AM   #82
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I have the MS-8 and it really sounds great with just the auto-tuning but it really needs a center speaker to sound that great.
In my testing of the MS-8 in an E9x, the center speaker was not needed to get great performance from either the driver's seat OR the passenger seat(if the preset was changed in the MS-8 from driver to passenger). It seems crucial (and JBL confirms this) for getting identical imaging from BOTH seats, as setting it to "Both" got me poor results - but it is not needed to get good sound from the driver's seat. Decide if passenger sound is important, I guess?

I have achieved a high center image without the center speaker, though, and that probably makes a lot of the difference. If, due to seat position or ear height when seated or the shape of your pinna, or your tuning, you aren't getting a high center image, the center speaker will help with that.

Technic, have you tried the Kicker woofers on the MS-8 amplifier? You're talking small sealed enclosure, the least efficient kind, is why I wonder.
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      07-18-2010, 08:38 AM   #83
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Technic, have you tried the Kicker woofers on the MS-8 amplifier? You're talking small sealed enclosure, the least efficient kind, is why I wonder.
My first SSMB8 implementation was in a 2007 MKV GTI (front doors), driven by the OEM RNS-510 Nav system. The RNS-510 uses a TDA7564 IC chip and the MS-8 uses the TDA7563; both have exactly the same power specs but the 7563 have more electrical protection and a Mute pin built-in.

I was very impressed with the bass coming from these midbass woofers with that VW OEM Nav and without any aftermarket amp or processing, so I tried them with my current M3 setup. And they still sound great in the OEM enclosures but with aftermarket amps and processing.

The SSMB8 -and the Rainbow W 200 by the way- seems to be designed mostly for OEM systems, as their own manufacturer descriptions emphasize the OEM woofer replacements with the shallow size and high sensitivity.

If more power is needed then a separate 2-channel amp can be used with the MS-8. But as an quick and simple upgrade I think that the MS-8 alone can power a full system in the 3-Series and satisfy most of the owners.
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      08-27-2010, 01:12 PM   #84
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Thinking about going the ms-8 route, does this plan sound ok ?

I have the logic 7 or whatever stereo in an 07 335 with whatever upgraded stereo option i could buy...

I have added an alpine f357 amp long ago, with hi-low converters, to power the front left and right doors (stock speakers) and to power an additional sub (just a boring 8" bazooka tube from an old car) in addition to leaving the under seat woofers hooked up to the factory amp

What i want to maybe do is...
Add a tweeter to the front center
Replace the under seat woofers with the RMB8's or whatever they were
Run the ms-8 to built in amp for
Center
Rear left
Rear right
Run the alpine amp to run the
Under seat, left
Under seat, right
Front left
Front right
New sub, gonna get a JL Audio shallow box thing, 8"

I do have another alpine amp available.... A f430... Just a 4 channel which i could use also... But space is an issue, so would prefer not unless it will make a big difference

I like quality surely.... (home stereo is STEREO, and costs $$$$$ and i can hear the differences between cables..etc..etc..) but when I'm driving, with a modded car...(exhaust, road noise) etc.... I can sacrifice some quality for loud.... I don't need earth shaking bass....and listen to rock, pop, like clean, clear vocals, but do like the bass to be strong and well defined too...

So...questions are:

With the FL and FR being powered by a stronger amp (and in theory, cleaner) would the center be ok running off the MS-8 ?? Or is that going to be pointless and a bad plan ?

The under seat woofers, with the Kicker drivers in there, I'm assuming that i should be setting the front speakers up in the ms-8 as 2-way, with the stock mids/tweets as a single output, and the under seat woofer as the other.....
(vs running them as "subs".. Running as subs would allow me to power the center with the alpine amp also, as i could split the sub signal between those and the jl audio in the trunk all off of two channels off the alpine, instead of 3..... But I'm thinking that's a horrible idea)

If running them as two way, those with experience with the kickers, what would you recommend for xover points, (both high and low) I was thinking like 250-80 or something, but sorta guessing.....should i go wider than that ?

Input/suggestions etc. All greatly appreciated...

Last edited by inthemiddle; 08-27-2010 at 01:41 PM. Reason: Corrected brand name. JBL ----> JL Audio
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      08-27-2010, 01:24 PM   #85
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Center would be fine off of MS8.

07 335 had Logic 7 as standard.

Interested in what JBL shallow 8" you're seeing? I've seen one that some folks call less deep, but it's not that shallow and it doesn't have enough excusion to think it's a good sub for our applications (not to mention, it will have the upper distortion components of a smaller piston).
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      08-27-2010, 01:39 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by VP Electricity View Post
Center would be fine off of MS8.

07 335 had Logic 7 as standard.

Interested in what JBL shallow 8" you're seeing? I've seen one that some folks call less deep, but it's not that shallow and it doesn't have enough excusion to think it's a good sub for our applications (not to mention, it will have the upper distortion components of a smaller piston).
Sorry... Totally mis-typed in the first half of my post... (I will go correct it)
JL Audio shallow sub... The CP108LG W3V3. I was going to go sealed vs potted... But well, this one sees to fit the best in my car...... The things i carry, having a 5" flat box sounds very appealing, so i figured i'd try it, if it sucks, i will replace it.... But since im not trying to shake my car apart, hopefully that will suffice, and be clean enough.... Will report back on that one.... But i will admit that my hopes aren't very high... . (that's going in in place of the bazooka, regardless of MS-8 or not)
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      08-27-2010, 01:47 PM   #87
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I think you'll need a 10". But let us know how that works out. A 10" doesn't shake the car apart.
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      08-27-2010, 02:11 PM   #88
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I think you'll need a 10". But let us know how that works out. A 10" doesn't shake the car apart.
Yea... The worst that happens is I buy a 10 (or 12?) for sound, and switch to the using the 8 when I have to travel and load the trunk up....
.....Or i suppose. Adding a 2nd of the exact same 8" box could also work ?

Thanks for the review/tips/thoughts....

Oh yea, one more thing, this thread mentioned 3/4" mdf spacers for the under seat RMB8s.... But the DIY woofer replacement thread says they cant be any higher up toward the seat than stock..... Am I missing or mis-reading something ?
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