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      06-18-2011, 11:36 AM   #375
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emoon3 View Post
Kai, I tried the trick you posted over at DIYMA (configuring the MS-8 with no sub and using the amp's crossovers to filter output to the sub.)

Well, let's just say that the next time you're up this way, drinks are on me!

Mid bass is better than I have ever been able to get it with just a calibration.

I still had to boost it just a bit with the EQ, but this definitely worked much better for me.


Cool, I wanted to wait for a few more success stories before posting the trick over here! Glad it worked for you!

Thanks for the offer, half a keg of Pilsener will do! (the other half for you)
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      06-18-2011, 12:05 PM   #376
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OK, so I will just cut and paste from my post over at DIYMA.

Quote:
Some people have reported a lack of midbass when using a trunk sub. This has been an issue especially in BMWs with the midbass drivers under the seats. If you calibrate without a sub, and let the woofers play all the way down, the midbass is great, but as soon as you add the sub into the mix, the midbass just disappears. It can be helped with the EQ, but not to the level of impact of the "no sub" calibration, not even close.

After having read about the lack of sub T/A recently, and Andy's explanation that it really is not that important, I had an idea. What if I calibrated without the sub, and then added it back in post calibration, using the crossovers in my amp? So I went out this morning for this little experiment. I set the subsonic at 20Hz on the underseat 8" woofers and calibrated without a sub. I then split the signal at the 4-ch amp and high-passed the underseats at 50Hz 24dB/oct and low-passed the sub at 50Hz, 12db/Oct.

The result? - Fantastic midbass and stellar subbass, the best of both worlds!
The reason why this works is that a) MS-8 does not time align the sub signal, and b) the sub sweep volume can be VERY disruptive to the calibration results (i.e. no midbass) if it is not perfectly matched to the midbass speakers. So it seems to be better to not have the sub present during calibration and then later add it back in by using the crossovers in your amp(s).

I also do not like to use too much EQ, since it chews up dynamic headroom of the processor, and IMO it is always better to use the amp gains to boost to the desired level, and then shave-off the peaks with the EQ, if necessary.

Try it!
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      06-18-2011, 08:32 PM   #377
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Finally decided to do this - Please help!

Logic 7, 2008 335xi, no navigation.

I have ordered the technic harness; JBL MS-8, earthquake SWS-8, 4ohm (in stead of Morel CW-8) and Dynavin E9x. I am waiting on Jason to get me the spacers for SWS.

My questions:

1. What's your suggestion on a paticular model of amp to drive the SWS? If anybody on the board can sell me one directly please PM me model and price.

2. Seems like there is one tweeter added to the center. Any suggestions on which model should I get? Again, If anybody on the board can sell me one directly please PM me model and price.

3. This thread has been very beneficial to me except it does not mention anything about Dynavin integration. Is there anything in paticular about putting in the Dynavin to replace the stock radio during this integration process? What are the tweaks and caliberation to be done on the Dynavin HU?

4. One dumb question - the old stock amp inside the driver side truck will be completely removed, right? By doing that, I lose the door chime, etc.

I have talked to a local installer who seems to know what he's talking about. Once I have all items ready I will have him do the wiring.

So I am doing all the following except the Morel part---

Copy and paste of kaigoss69's route from the 1st post:

"System Configuration #1c by kaigoss69:
- Channels 1 & 2: OEM L7 door speakers (4" midrange and 1" tweeter)
- Channels 3 & 4: Morel CW-8 woofers under seats
- Channel 5: OEM L7 center 4" midrange with 1" L7 tweeter added
- Channels 6 & 7: OEM Rear Deck speakers & Rear side speakers in parallel
- Amplification: MS-8 internal amp for channels 1, 2, 5 - 7. Ch 3 & 4 externally amp'ed with 150W/Ch."
---------------------------------------------------------
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      06-18-2011, 10:08 PM   #378
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1. JL Audio XD400/4 or Kenwood XR-4S would be my recommendations. These are 4-channel amps but you can bridge them to output two channels and you will have a lot more flexibility if/when you decide to upgrade.

2. Get a Logic 7 tweeter from BMW. It will be cheap and is plug&play. You will have to fabricate a bracket for it.

3. As long as you understand the disadvantages of replacing the OEM HU, and removing it from the car, it will work just fine as far as interfacing with the MS-8 goes. You will need to run one pair of RCA cables and a remote wire from the Dynavin to the MS-8. Make sure all processing is off. You can skip input set-up on the MS-8 (since the input signal is flat and unprocessed).

4. I am not 100% sure but I believe that with the OEM HU gone, there is no need for the Logic7 amp.
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      06-18-2011, 10:11 PM   #379
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Many thanks! now it's time to look for a logic 7 tweeter and amp!
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      06-18-2011, 10:18 PM   #380
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does this tweeter work?

It's from a 7 series.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/BMW-E...#ht_1377wt_937



Quote:
Originally Posted by dukeandtheland View Post
Many thanks! now it's time to look for a logic 7 tweeter and amp!
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      06-18-2011, 10:36 PM   #381
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dukeandtheland View Post
The part number you are looking for is 65136964013. The part number for that 7 series tweeter is 65136907639. The housing is different but the driver itself could be the same, could not. I would get an identical one to what you have in the doors.
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      06-19-2011, 11:17 AM   #382
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VP Electricity View Post
remember to unplug the mics afterwards!

So you have to be able to reach the cable.
Is there any reason you cant leave an extension cable plugged in?
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      06-19-2011, 11:20 AM   #383
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaigoss69 View Post
- During acoustic calibration, leave MS-8 volume at -20 dB. [edit: it works much better at -35dB]
- When calibration is done, unplug the mic from the unit (there have been some issues when the mic was left plugged in).

:
What difference in results do you note when running it at different DB levels
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      06-19-2011, 11:48 AM   #384
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Technic View Post
I fixed my problem with midbass by running the calibration with these settings:

- Sub is 80Hz at 24dB slope
- Front Lo/Hi is 170Hz at 18dB slope
- 40dB volume
- 2V gains (NOM) in all my channels except the mid bass at 4V (min). My amps are Alpine PDX.

After calibration I set all the gains back to minimum, the MS-8 volume to -6dB and the midbass is finally there and tight; if I raise the gains of the midbass now they will sound considerably louder than before.
Is this the latest and greatest solution on the midbass hole? Im having boomy sub issues right now (crossed @ 70 with SSMB8), SSMB8 running up to 250 per VP-E's advice.
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      06-19-2011, 12:39 PM   #385
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Technic View Post
I fixed my problem with midbass by running the calibration with these settings:

- Sub is 80Hz at 24dB slope
- Front Lo/Hi is 170Hz at 18dB slope
- 40dB volume
- 2V gains (NOM) in all my channels except the mid bass at 4V (min). My amps are Alpine PDX.

After calibration I set all the gains back to minimum, the MS-8 volume to -6dB and the midbass is finally there and tight; if I raise the gains of the midbass now they will sound considerably louder than before.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaigoss69 View Post
OK, so I will just cut and paste from my post over at DIYMA.



The reason why this works is that a) MS-8 does not time align the sub signal, and b) the sub sweep volume can be VERY disruptive to the calibration results (i.e. no midbass) if it is not perfectly matched to the midbass speakers. So it seems to be better to not have the sub present during calibration and then later add it back in by using the crossovers in your amp(s).

I also do not like to use too much EQ, since it chews up dynamic headroom of the processor, and IMO it is always better to use the amp gains to boost to the desired level, and then shave-off the peaks with the EQ, if necessary.

Try it!
I don't think thats possible with my setup. how can I add in a sub after the fact? I won't have any sub channel output going to my sub amp.
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      06-19-2011, 02:04 PM   #386
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I've never had the problem you guys are talking about, but I always lower the volume before calibration to 50% of the out-of-box level.

The sub should never be "time aligned" since it's the farthest speaker from the driver in the car - so all the other speakers are delayed in time to match it. If the MS-8 doesn't "hear" any sub notes, I wonder if the MS-8 isn't delaying the fronts as much, and so the sub-bass is arriving with a different phase relationship to the fronts as a result.
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      06-19-2011, 02:07 PM   #387
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taibanl View Post
I don't think thats possible with my setup. how can I add in a sub after the fact? I won't have any sub channel output going to my sub amp.
I'm sorry, I'm lost. Isn't the Alpine 300 getting its signal from the MS-8? If not, it needs to be...
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      06-19-2011, 02:14 PM   #388
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taibanl View Post
Is there any reason you cant leave an extension cable plugged in?
Extension is fine, just don't have the mic connected.

Quote:
Originally Posted by taibanl View Post
What difference in results do you note when running it at different DB levels
If the sweeps are too loud, it will clip the mic input and you will have funky sound. If the sweep levels from different channels are uneven, you may get distortion. The calibration dB level is relative since the sweep volume depends on amp power, amp gains, and speaker sensitivities. So each set-up is different. Find the setting where all the sweeps (the first sweeps of each set) are between 65 and 70 dB, except the sub. That's what has worked for me. If the results are not good, reduce the gain on the underseats amp and recalibrate, until you've found the sweet spot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by taibanl View Post
I don't think thats possible with my setup. how can I add in a sub after the fact? I won't have any sub channel output going to my sub amp.
You can, if your amp(s) will allow you to. What amp(s) do you have for the underseats and sub?
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      06-19-2011, 02:20 PM   #389
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VP Electricity View Post
The sub should never be "time aligned" since it's the farthest speaker from the driver in the car - so all the other speakers are delayed in time to match it. If the MS-8 doesn't "hear" any sub notes, I wonder if the MS-8 isn't delaying the fronts as much, and so the sub-bass is arriving with a different phase relationship to the fronts as a result.
Next time you run a calibration, listen carefully for the sub during TA sweeps. Notice anything missing?

MS-8 does not TA the sub. Farthest speakers are the rears/sides, and TA is zero'ed in on them.
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      06-19-2011, 03:41 PM   #390
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taibanl View Post
I don't think thats possible with my setup. how can I add in a sub after the fact? I won't have any sub channel output going to my sub amp.
You have a completely separate amp powering your trunk sub alone. Kai's solution works if you have the same amp powering the underseats and the trunk sub.

Although, you could use Y adapters to spit the signal going to your underseat woofers and use the JL amp to low pass your underseats and the Alpine to highpass your trunk sub.
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      06-19-2011, 04:36 PM   #391
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VP Electricity View Post
I'm sorry, I'm lost. Isn't the Alpine 300 getting its signal from the MS-8? If not, it needs to be...
Indeed it is; the question was how to implement Kaigoss's workaround which seems to be endorsed by Andy over on DIYMA

Kaigoss and eMoon are advocating doing exactly the opposite

Last edited by taibanl; 06-19-2011 at 05:59 PM.
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      06-19-2011, 04:39 PM   #392
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaigoss69 View Post


You can, if your amp(s) will allow you to. What amp(s) do you have for the underseats and sub?
Alpine MRD-M300, a bit older digital amp. Almost all its options are defeated as MS-8 is doing all the "thinking"

The underseats are powered by four channels of my XD600/6

Last edited by taibanl; 06-19-2011 at 04:46 PM.
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      06-19-2011, 04:40 PM   #393
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaigoss69 View Post
Next time you run a calibration, listen carefully for the sub during TA sweeps. Notice anything missing?

MS-8 does not TA the sub. Farthest speakers are the rears/sides, and TA is zero'ed in on them.
I've noticed on the first sweep the underseats play, on successive sweeps only the sub plays. Weird.
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      06-19-2011, 04:45 PM   #394
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emoon3 View Post
You have a completely separate amp powering your trunk sub alone. Kai's solution works if you have the same amp powering the underseats and the trunk sub.

Although, you could use Y adapters to spit the signal going to your underseat woofers and use the JL amp to low pass your underseats and the Alpine to highpass your trunk sub.
There has GOT to be a better way...we shouldn't accept JBL's do it our way/set it and forget it mentality if we end up having to trick the system in the process.
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      06-19-2011, 05:35 PM   #395
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taibanl View Post
Alpine MRD-M300, a bit older digital amp. Almost all its options are defeated as MS-8 is doing all the "thinking"

The underseats are powered by four channels of my XD600/6
Since the XD600/6 doesn't have a pass-through, you can only do it with a y-splitter RCA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by taibanl View Post
I've noticed on the first sweep the underseats play, on successive sweeps only the sub plays. Weird.
The first sweep is for time alignment, so every channel sweeps separately, except the sub, which is not measured. The consequent sweeps are for auto-tuning, and the underseat woofers sweep at the same time as the door speakers, since it is 2-way. The sub receives its own sweep.

Quote:
Originally Posted by taibanl View Post
There has GOT to be a better way...we shouldn't accept JBL's do it our way/set it and forget it mentality if we end up having to trick the system in the process.
VP and Technic both claim to have done it. However, I have done hundreds of calibrations and I have not been able to get great subbass AND great midbass, without using the workaround.

It seems the sweeps from a small sealed sub enclosure are perhaps too peaky, and it messes with the results, especially when the sweeps from under the seats are peaky as well. Since MS-8 supposedly matches levels to the sweep peaks, I can easily see how the autotune EQ will quickly run run out of steam, as it may not have enough headroom available to properly match the "valleys" as well. And if that is what is going on, then the problem is not caused by the processor, but rather by the application.
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      06-19-2011, 05:42 PM   #396
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taibanl View Post
There has GOT to be a better way...we shouldn't accept JBL's do it our way/set it and forget it mentality if we end up having to trick the system in the process.
Honestly, it took me 20 mins to do this. Compared to the hours of calibrations I had done before, it was a big time saver for me.
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