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      01-22-2012, 04:44 PM   #529
taibanl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan_h View Post
Ah I see. I don't have a sub (yet?).
Nathan

Lets get you squared away.

Where do you stand now, (what you have, how happy you are)
What you want (in terms of more equipment, and generally overall SQ)
What is your budget (Target, Max, etc)
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      01-22-2012, 05:55 PM   #530
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taibanl View Post
Nathan

Lets get you squared away.

Where do you stand now, (what you have, how happy you are)
What you want (in terms of more equipment, and generally overall SQ)
What is your budget (Target, Max, etc)
I have a 2012 MY (product date Aug 2011) 128i with the middle (aka HiFi) system... tweeters in the A pillars, mids in the doors, woofers under the seats, and of course the rear deck speakers.

I've bypassed the OEM amp, with technic's harness and a JBL MS-8 driving the OEM speakers.

The imaging is quite improved, though the soundstage is a bit low (sort of sound like it is spread across the hood and through the engine bay. Far better than the stock setup.

What I'm missing is:

Even better imaging with a higher image (say, spread out in front of the windshield).

A little more visceral sense of the bass.

--

I listen mostly to classic rock, acoustic jazz, and lots of classical. (Hence you can understand why imaging matters much to me.)

I don't need loads of thumping bass, but I would like to hear the full impact of an upright bass and an acoustic kick drum, a timpani, etc.

--

I'm guessing that for $500 ish I can replace the underseat woofers and add a two channel amp, and get more body.

I'm guessing that for $1500 I can replace all the speakers and just use the line out from the MS-8 into a six channel amp.

I am very open to recommendations.
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      01-22-2012, 06:53 PM   #531
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan_h View Post
I have a 2012 MY (product date Aug 2011) 128i with the middle (aka HiFi) system... tweeters in the A pillars, mids in the doors, woofers under the seats, and of course the rear deck speakers.

I've bypassed the OEM amp, with technic's harness and a JBL MS-8 driving the OEM speakers.

The imaging is quite improved, though the soundstage is a bit low (sort of sound like it is spread across the hood and through the engine bay. Far better than the stock setup.

What I'm missing is:

Even better imaging with a higher image (say, spread out in front of the windshield).

A little more visceral sense of the bass.

--

I listen mostly to classic rock, acoustic jazz, and lots of classical. (Hence you can understand why imaging matters much to me.)

I don't need loads of thumping bass, but I would like to hear the full impact of an upright bass and an acoustic kick drum, a timpani, etc.

--

I'm guessing that for $500 ish I can replace the underseat woofers and add a two channel amp, and get more body.

I'm guessing that for $1500 I can replace all the speakers and just use the line out from the MS-8 into a six channel amp.

I am very open to recommendations.
Step 1)
Determine plan of attack for Bass
a) Midbass only: HP the under seats @ 60hz. Note this is 10w LESS than OEM amp power but at least with the active crossover point it should maybe be about as efficient.
b) Midbass + power: Same as above but add power to under seats.
c) Subbass/Midbass compromise: add power (cheap 2ch) AND replace under seats with SWS. Use MS-8 to "Tune" the SWS to provide decent Midbass also, since they are predominantly a sub bass driver.
d) Subbass + Midbass: JL XD400/4 ($300) or XD600/6 ($350) and a MusicarNW Box ($500) - Keep OEM Midbass
e) "d" plus upgraded midbass, etc.

Step 2)
Upgrade frontstage: Technic has commented that the worst part of the HiFi speakers are the tweeters,
a) you could buy some used L7 tweeters and swap them out P+P
b) replace entire fronts with L7 used (Note Kaigoss was very happy with MS-8 powered L7 front stage)
c) replace fronts with BMW EPS speakers or any other of the 4" replacement drivers

Now,

If I were in your shoes, I would have not gone straight to the MS-8, I would have done things in this order:

1) XD 600/6 (use onboard crossovers) $350
2) add new fronts (rainbow SLC is good) +280=$630, or DLS R4 ($149=$500)
3) replace mid bass with SWS +120 ($750 or $620)
OR
3a) add a MusicarNW trunk sub ($450) and keep OEM mid bass (instead of 600/6, use 700/5 ($+50) - $1130 or $1000
4a) MS-8 or other processor (H660?) - BTW, you don't have a center location and you don't need DE-EQ so a lot of the MS-8 advantage is lost.
MS-8 (+$500 or +$260) (range now btw $1630 and $1260)
5a) Upgrade Midbass as required, Jehnerts, SSMB8 (price varies)
6a) Upgrade rears if you really really want (overkill).


For similar idea, see This Technic Post or this post (although the latter is a base stereo upgrade)

Last edited by taibanl; 01-22-2012 at 07:19 PM.
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      01-22-2012, 10:18 PM   #532
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For me, something like the MS8 was critical, not for de-EQ in my case but for the time alignment of the drivers and equalization of the cabin and speaker driver imperfections. And I was able to pick one up for 375.

I think upgrades to the drivers are in order, and I'd prefer to avoid adding a sub, so the underseat upgrade will need to handle real bass. I will need to carefully review your recommendations, the links, etc to decide on drivers and amplification.

Thanks for the ideas.
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      01-22-2012, 10:41 PM   #533
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan_h View Post
For me, something like the MS8 was critical, not for de-EQ in my case but for the time alignment of the drivers and equalization of the cabin and speaker driver imperfections. And I was able to pick one up for 375.

I think upgrades to the drivers are in order, and I'd prefer to avoid adding a sub, so the underseat upgrade will need to handle real bass. I will need to carefully review your recommendations, the links, etc to decide on drivers and amplification.

Thanks for the ideas.
Like Taibanl pointed out, you would have to compromise if you do not plan on getting a trunk sub. Either you go with a true midbass driver, for the best possible sound down to about 50 - 60 Hz, or you go with the SWS for decent low bass, but crappy midbass.

Another way to look at it is like this: Get some good midbass drivers and you can always add a trunk sub later, or get the SWS and if you want to add a trunk sub later, you probably also need new midbass drivers.
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      01-22-2012, 10:48 PM   #534
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If I can get quality midbass down to 40hz from the underseat location I will be happy for now. Sounds like the sws isn't the right choice. Will the Jenhart suffice? Or the Kicker SSMB8 appears to have even better specs for what I seek.
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      01-22-2012, 11:08 PM   #535
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan_h View Post
For me, something like the MS8 was critical, not for de-EQ in my case but for the time alignment of the drivers and equalization of the cabin and speaker driver imperfections. And I was able to pick one up for 375.

I think upgrades to the drivers are in order, and I'd prefer to avoid adding a sub, so the underseat upgrade will need to handle real bass. I will need to carefully review your recommendations, the links, etc to decide on drivers and amplification.

Thanks for the ideas.
Nothing wrong with the MS-8 but time alignment etc, is a step beyond fixing basic issues with (read: replacing) drivers. The MS-8 does go a long way to make drivers sound better than they are, but it can't fix crap. In any case, for $375 I would have grabbed it myself. The other issues you cite also can be fixed by the Alpine (not that I have any experience with it).

In that case, I would recommend something like THIS as a cost conscious way forward, though substitute the DLS R4 and then buy some SWS-8x or -xi and some JTSherri spacers and you are done my friend!
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      01-22-2012, 11:15 PM   #536
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan_h View Post
If I can get quality midbass down to 40hz from the underseat location I will be happy for now. Sounds like the sws isn't the right choice. Will the Jenhart suffice? Or the Kicker SSMB8 appears to have even better specs for what I seek.
The Jehnert's are described as very musical and are capable of playing well all the way down without a Low Pass (though I doubt with much authority below 40ish; at least they won't distort) B-737 has these and has stated no need for a sub.

The SSMB8's model similarly to the Jehnerts (credit: Kaigoss), they play down to 40 but not below, Technic has stated they break up in the 30's; however I can say that my sub fell over in my trunk one day (disconnecting itself in the process), and I boosted the sub control on the MS-8 and could barely notice the missing sub).

I would definitely not discount the SWS; in fact, I might steer you toward it. It is designed for sub bass, that's true, but with the power of the MS-8 it can supposedly do a pretty damn good job standing in for a mid bass driver also. Ken has done tons of systems like this from what I understand and gotten good results.

Without the MS-8, I would not use SWS for mid bass though.
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      01-22-2012, 11:16 PM   #537
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The DLS seems interesting. But if I'm gonna pull apart the doors and A pillars, I might as well not get the cheapest decent replacements but something that won't leave me wondering..... I'm tempted by the rainbows for the doers and A pillars and the Kickers for under the seats.
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      01-22-2012, 11:27 PM   #538
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taibanl View Post
The Jehnert's are described as very musical and are capable of playing well all the way down without a Low Pass (though I doubt with much authority below 40ish; at least they won't distort) B-737 has these and has stated no need for a sub.

The SSMB8's model similarly to the Jehnerts (credit: Kaigoss), they play down to 40 but not below, Technic has stated they break up in the 30's; however I can say that my sub fell over in my trunk one day (disconnecting itself in the process), and I boosted the sub control on the MS-8 and could barely notice the missing sub).

I would definitely not discount the SWS; in fact, I might steer you toward it. It is designed for sub bass, that's true, but with the power of the MS-8 it can supposedly do a pretty damn good job standing in for a mid bass driver also. Ken has done tons of systems like this from what I understand and gotten good results.

Without the MS-8, I would not use SWS for mid bass though.
Seems like the Kicker might be the right middle ground. But if the Jenhert can play just to 40hz that's fine, and musical is key since these have to cover up to 200hz well.
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      01-23-2012, 11:58 PM   #539
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Of course, sourcing this stuff is all gray market, eh? For example, looking around for Morel, you either go to an installer or

http://www.ebay.com/itm/DOTECH-4-MOR...#ht_6861wt_954

but at least IIRC this set is plug and play.

Others aren't even in that flea market in the sky....

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=....c0.m270.l1313
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      01-24-2012, 12:19 AM   #540
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Dude, Morels are not plug and play unless you get them from someone who installs the and wiring adapters. or did you think I was trying to sell you parts that came in the box?

The only PNP speakers are BSW. The Jehnerts are not PNP either.

Nathan, have you done an upgrade?
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      01-24-2012, 12:20 AM   #541
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Whoops. "...mounting and wiring adapters..."
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      01-24-2012, 12:26 AM   #542
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No upgrade on a BMW yet (other than the ms8). Do you sell a kit with wiring adapters and mounts for the Morel Dotech 2 way set? I'd rather spend a little more than the random vendor price if it means supporting a forum sponsor and making the install less painful.

Near as I can tell from other install threads, the size it PnP but of course one has to replace the oem crossover in the door. But I'm going by what others have done, mostly in the three series.
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      01-24-2012, 10:28 AM   #543
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan_h View Post
No upgrade on a BMW yet (other than the ms8). Do you sell a kit with wiring adapters and mounts for the Morel Dotech 2 way set? I'd rather spend a little more than the random vendor price if it means supporting a forum sponsor and making the install less painful.

Near as I can tell from other install threads, the size it PnP but of course one has to replace the oem crossover in the door. But I'm going by what others have done, mostly in the three series.
Nathan, going with adapters like VP Electricity sells will save you countless hours...countless, and your install will be 10x more professional at the end of the day.
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      01-24-2012, 10:35 AM   #544
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I believe you. I tried to get in on their install trip to my area last fall but couldn't get in on the schedule. There aren't any local installers with a clean enough reputation that I'd feel confident paying a someone around here to do it.
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      01-24-2012, 11:37 AM   #545
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Im thinking I might upgrade the L7 underseats and ditch my trunk sub... my big subwoofer days are behind me and from what im reading here I think one of the underseat options will be plenty for regular listening....decisions, decisions....

VP, Ive seen all the speculation and info on this thread about the different subs and its probably been stated elsewhere and i missed it....but for regular listening levels and no trunk sub, which ones do YOU think are the best overall compromise when using the MS-8?

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      01-24-2012, 11:50 AM   #546
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I'm not VP but distilling the info in this and the 1 series forums, it's looking like the Jenhart and Kicker are the best compromise, though for raw low end output there are better choices.

Me, I need something musical, agile and accurate down to about 40hz, below which I don't care.
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      01-24-2012, 12:07 PM   #547
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yeah, sounds like we are in the same situation....Im thinking that I could then just run the front as a 2 way full range with no sub, highpass it around 30hz, this would get rid of the "midbass hole" and get nice smooth response all the way down without having to do the midbass "workaround" that Im doing now....
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      01-24-2012, 12:22 PM   #548
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yep, though 30 hz with any underseat driver may be tough. i use some professional monitors for desktop listening that are rated to 40hz and drop off pretty quick after that, and really for most music that covers the key bass tones, as well.
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      01-24-2012, 12:23 PM   #549
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan_h View Post
If I can get quality midbass down to 40hz from the underseat location I will be happy for now. Sounds like the sws isn't the right choice. Will the Jenhart suffice? Or the Kicker SSMB8 appears to have even better specs for what I seek.
Are you setting the underseat OEM woofers as 2 subs in the MS-8? If not then try it... low pass at 200Hz at 18dB.
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      01-24-2012, 02:02 PM   #550
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Technic, are you saying the OEM woofers will do down to 40 decently? I might have to try it as an experiment....

Kaigoss "midbass hole workaround" essentially has you do that, run the fronts all the way down, and it sounded pretty decent when I did it, not very loud but definitely balanced and full.
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