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      01-24-2012, 02:24 PM   #551
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Technic View Post
Are you setting the underseat OEM woofers as 2 subs in the MS-8? If not then try it... low pass at 200Hz at 18dB.
That was the original way I set it up.

But running the underseat subs as part of a two way front config, crossover with the doors at 200hz, and then roll off the underseats at 40hz, seemed to make more complete use of the MS8's capabilities... perhaps in part because the MS8 applies more correction processing to a woofer as part of a 2 way front set up, than calling the front speakers "one way" and saying I have two subs, during the setup process.
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      01-24-2012, 02:26 PM   #552
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I think that once I upgrade the underseats to something better, I'll be adding an amp for them... but now that we're into this path, I think I should upgrade the doors (hopefully with a kit from VP), and see if the MS8 amps are adequate for that.... if not, then I need at least a four channel amp (one for each door and one for each underseat woofer), rather than investing in a two channel amp (just for the underseat woofers).
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      01-24-2012, 02:55 PM   #553
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan_h View Post
That was the original way I set it up.

But running the underseat subs as part of a two way front config, crossover with the doors at 200hz, and then roll off the underseats at 40hz, seemed to make more complete use of the MS8's capabilities... perhaps in part because the MS8 applies more correction processing to a woofer as part of a 2 way front set up, than calling the front speakers "one way" and saying I have two subs, during the setup process.
In my experience, you will have a much more significant and better bass by setting the OEM woofers as subs than part of the Front 2-way. There's not that much correction on the woofers or subs by the MS-8 anyways according to the JBL PM.

Keep playing around with the calibration volume level and make sure that no external noises are generated while under calibration and you will get it right. Calibration with the internal amps is much trickier in volume level than calibration with external amps as the mic input level could be clipped much easier.
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      01-24-2012, 03:18 PM   #554
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Okay I will give that a try. Thanks.
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      01-24-2012, 04:39 PM   #555
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan_h View Post
If I can get quality midbass down to 40hz from the underseat location I will be happy for now.
I'm currently going through this issue myself as I've LPF the SWS-8 at around 90Hz (I too have 1 series). And frankly the mid-bass is just not there... The ambience sounds muddy at times... It is though running of that ugly base EQ curve, but saying that when I've set them HPF at 50Hz, the mids just shot through (even off that EQ curve). I did loose some of the SUB lows but it wasn't bad, just sounded like I had the bass knob turned down abit.

It is annoying, as I'm changing the LPF/HPF on them every other day, some songs are just super on HPF @ 50Hz, however on some the sub woofer just isn't doing it sub thing and I have to change back to LPF @ 90ish for those real lows.

Until my H660 arrives it's coming from the US, (man shipping from you guys takes ages sometimes). I can't really do much in the way of tuning and seeing what's what with the SWS-8, and if they are staying. I don't know if I can really make them play those mids on a LPF like it does on a HPF even with the H660, as VP and others have made them sound good with some hard EQing.

Otherwise out with SWS-8s and in with Kickers or Jehnerts, for that true mid-bass driver and a VP sub... I really, really hope not....

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      01-24-2012, 09:06 PM   #556
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I haven't read too much about the "mid bass problem" but it seems to mostly impact people that ADD an extra trunk mounted sub.

If you are using an MS-8 (I assume so, since you are posting in the MS-8 thread :-)) I don't really understand your settings. Those 8 inch drivers should probably be crossed over to the doors at 150hz or higher, and rolled off really low (like 20hz?).

But if you are using an add on sub, I'm clueless.
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      01-24-2012, 09:36 PM   #557
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Correct, the midbass problem has to do with running a trunk sub.
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      01-25-2012, 08:48 AM   #558
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan_h View Post
I haven't read too much about the "mid bass problem" but it seems to mostly impact people that ADD an extra trunk mounted sub.
That is an incorrect statement, and lazy one at that. If you “haven’t read much about this” then FIRST read more about this and how MID-bass and SUB-bass interact with each other (especially in the SWS-8) as this is a well known industry fact about playing SUB-woofers above 100Hz, then make a statement about it… Issues can be an unwanted standing bass waves, identification of the woofers position, as in not an “everywhere” sound. As well as “flabby” or “boomy” bass. Or sometimes know as a "bass bump" with the main drivers and woofers

And what happens if I’m not one of the “MOSTLY” and one of the “FEW”, who has this issue. We have some people on here that come with very rare problems that are only unique to them and haven’t heard of that issue before, and even veterans like Technic and VP struggle to diagnose the issue. It actually remind me of a guy who had annoying hiss/static coming from his speakers, loads of people tried to help and Technic too. Everything from amp sensitivity setting, to changing RACs. But they don’t go, yee “Most of us don’t have that issue”…. Very, very lazy statement.. Sorry. (Plus, mine is very common issue with the SWS-8)

Here to help you get started is link on the issue of playing them above 100Hz (MID-bass territory) http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=587762

SWS-8 is predominantly a SUB-woofer, which means they naturally want to play around 80Hz and lower. The MID-bass is around 100 Hz to 200 Hz and mid-RANGE (vocals etc…) is around 400Hz to 3,000Hz

If you make a SUB-woofer play from 20Hz to 200HZ (especially the shallow-mount earthquakes) you are introducing a whole load of problems. As you are making it do the work of a mid-bass driver and a sub-woofer. This is a VERY COMMON issue with people complaining about their mid-bass with the SWS-8. AS a matter of fact the issue is more common for people w/o a DSP of some kind, as the MS-8 will fix these issue with sub in the trunk or without. As people have stated it’s to do with calibration, EQing and using the correct connections. So the problem is fixable and has been done many times by Kai, VP, Techinic etc…) because they have the tools (MS-8), But not many have fixed the issue w/o a DSP/EQ processor of somekind. (As they don't have the right 'tools' like MS-8 and need multipale 'tools' like cleansweep etc... Which makes it abit tricker to install and tune for the average joe.)

Or people have been putting in 6.5” or 8” into the door panel for the proper mid-bass and mid-range like in this clip. -http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gqing3p2psI

Some have been playing with the idea of 5.25” in the door and play them down to 70-80Hz but you get into off-axis issues…

I don’t want to go into this explaining in detail, since it’s been posted hundreds of times and is a well known issue with sub-woofers playing mid-bass (especially cheap to mid-priced ones). So just search it…

Using the MS-8 this issue can be addressed, but this is with heavy EQing with dB/Oct setting. This has once again been discussed many times on this thread and countless others. VP has multiple times been able to produce a great sounding SWS-8 between 150Hz and 200Hz but only heavy EQing with dB/Oct setting. (Hope I’m not misquoting you VP)

But as both Technic and VP where discussing in this link http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=351728. The Kicker is a MID-bass driver with little SUB-bass. The opposite to the SWS-8. And this was just once again covered Tai about the different ways of SUB/MID-bass set-up possibilities and their benefits as well as shortcomings

Quote:
Originally Posted by taibanl View Post
Step 1)
Determine plan of attack for Bass
a) Midbass only: HP the under seats @ 60hz. Note this is 10w LESS than OEM amp power but at least with the active crossover point it should maybe be about as efficient.
b) Midbass + power: Same as above but add power to under seats.
c) Subbass/Midbass compromise: add power (cheap 2ch) AND replace under seats with SWS. Use MS-8 to "Tune" the SWS to provide decent Midbass also, since they are predominantly a sub bass driver.
d) Subbass + Midbass: JL XD400/4 ($300) or XD600/6 ($350) and a MusicarNW Box ($500) - Keep OEM Midbass
e) "d" plus upgraded midbass, etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan_h View Post
If you are using an MS-8 (I assume so, since you are posting in the MS-8 thread :-)) I don't really understand your settings.
Once again an incorrect statement, you do not need to have a MS-8 to post on an MS-8 thread. This isn’t a gym membership system, of if you don’t have gym pass you can’t enter the gym. Anything that is relating to the MS-8(including advantages and disadvantages of it versus other DSPs out there), or the possibilities of MS-8 fixing issues you have or may have can be posted on here.

Don’t “Assume” anything, especially on a technical audio forum if you’re giving advice (well trying too). If you had read my post properly you would see I wrote “It is though running of that ugly base EQ curve”. How can it, if I had an MS-8 it wouldn’t have that curve that’s what the de-EQ on it does… silly. And “Until my H660 arrives it's coming from the US” why would I down grade from a MS-8 to a H660. Its going backwards, again lazy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan_h View Post
Those 8 inch drivers should probably be crossed over to the doors at 150hz or higher, and rolled off really low (like 20hz?).
If you run your SWS-8 at 150Hz-200Hz like VP has successfully on a (heavily EQed set-up) you need a higher dB/Oct slope. The H660 if fixed 12. Sooo… I’m going to write this as clear as possible… When my H660 arrives ( I DON’T HAVE A DSP ATM) I’m going to attempt to do with it what others have achieved successfully with running the SWS-8 as mid-bass driver with its natural SUB characteristics coming through in smaller doses, on the MS-8. But issues are as follows to avoid a “Gap” accruing not going to go into to this just find the post about this, they need to run @ 200Hz LPF @ FIXED 12dB/Oct which is an issue. And I WON’T have a graphic EQ to play around with, like the 31-band the MS-8 has. BUT… It does have a 512-band calibration EQ which fingers crossed, should make this issue pretty much inaudible. If NOT and the “MID-bass” is “STILL” an issue then I will need to replace it with an MS-8 and look at a true 3-way system like, 4” door, Kicker underseat, and VP sub as I already explained in previous post. Or just introduce a Kicker in the door panel and HPF @ 80Hz.
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      01-25-2012, 08:48 AM   #559
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Originally Posted by jeffb335 View Post
Correct, the midbass problem has to do with running a trunk sub.
Incorrect.
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      01-25-2012, 09:22 AM   #560
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Apples and oranges. The SWS-8 have a midbass problem due to the driver's inability to accurately reproduce those frequencies. The MS-8, when used WITH a trunk sub in a small sealed enclosure, produces a midbass "hole" due to a software issue with the MS-8.
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      01-25-2012, 09:33 AM   #561
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Pavlo,

I don't want to start an argument but the midbass problem that both Nathan and I are referring to is the one where the ms8 tuning algorithm gets confused by something in the 3series setup when using a trunk sub and turns down the underseat woofers causing a lack of midbass. As Kaigoss just said^^^.

Both technic and kaigoss discuss it on this thread and it is discussed extensively on the DIYMA thread including being discussed by Andy W from JBL. Your response to both of us is about car audio in general and is correct, but we were talking about a VERY specific issue on the MS-8. Nathans discussions about subs and the midbass issue are two separate discussions.

I own an ms-8, have tried all the configurations and workarounds, I read this entire thread AND the 290 page monster thread on DIYMA so I may have missed something....but I doubt it....


Kaigoss,

After doing a million calibrations sweeps that i know you have done, are you fairly convinced that is what is going on with the midbass issue? I saw it theorized but the discussion never really went anywhere.... So the thinking is that there is a peak in the subs output above the crossover point that the ms-8 sees and since it is above the crossover point it reduces the output of the midbass drivers to compensate.

My experience with the ms-8 and the workarounds seem to support that idea....

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      01-25-2012, 10:23 AM   #562
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffb335 View Post
Pavlo,

I don't want to start an argument but the midbass problem that both Nathan and I are referring to is the one where the ms8 tuning algorithm gets confused by something in the 3series setup when using a trunk sub and turns down the underseat woofers causing a lack of midbass. As Kaigoss just said^^^.

Both technic and kaigoss discuss it on this thread and it is discussed extensively on the DIYMA thread including being discussed by Andy W from JBL. Your response to both of us is about car audio in general and is correct, but we were talking about a VERY specific issue on the MS-8. Nathans discussions about subs and the midbass issue are two separate discussions.

I own an ms-8, have tried all the configurations and workarounds, I read this entire thread AND the 290 page monster thread on DIYMA so I may have missed something....but I doubt it....


Kaigoss,

After doing a million calibrations sweeps that i know you have done, are you fairly convinced that is what is going on with the midbass issue? I saw it theorized but the discussion never really went anywhere.... So the thinking is that there is a peak in the subs output above the crossover point that the ms-8 sees and since it is above the crossover point it reduces the output of the midbass drivers to compensate.

My experience with the ms-8 and the workarounds seem to support that idea....
Hmmm yes Jeff and Kai I would agree, not taking anything away from "that unique to MS-8 mid-bass hole issue" I didn’t post anything about it, the later part has been about speakers/underseats and which set-up achieves a balanced sound, the main issue that was being discussed is bass. As Nathan doesn’t have a sub and if the MS-8 can drive the SWS-8 as a mid-driver properly and go as low as 20/30Hz, that should be more than fine for classic rock, acoustic jazz, classical. And adding a sub especially if that “Hole” issue occurs is a waste of his time as the underseats are more capable for this type of music (as for example most of the bass guitars string range plays between 40hz and 100Hz and kick drums lowest is around 40-50Hz as far as I remember). So if the traditional mid-bass issue with the SWS-8 is fixed, there shouldn’t be a need for an additional trunk sub for these types of genres. And correct me if I’m wrong (always happy to know if I’m) the SWS-8 sounding “flabby” or missing that mid-bass is worse for the imagining then that issue, especially windscreen focused sound as per Nathans request.
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      01-25-2012, 10:47 AM   #563
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffb335 View Post
Correct, the midbass problem has to do with running a trunk sub.
Every instance I recall in this long thread has been about such a setup.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaigoss69 View Post
Apples and oranges. The SWS-8 have a midbass problem due to the driver's inability to accurately reproduce those frequencies. The MS-8, when used WITH a trunk sub in a small sealed enclosure, produces a midbass "hole" due to a software issue with the MS-8.
Thanks for clearly stating what I wasn't able to. I was referring to the latter situation.

I'm steering clear of drivers like the SWS-8 due to the former situation, as discussed, even with the MS8 in place which could partially correct it. My preference is for a driver built to deliver the heart of the range I am looking for, rather than forced to do what its not optimized for. There's a lot of important musical information in the 100hz to 200hz range. If that means I have to accept roll off below 40hz, that's okay.

A five string bass can get down to 30hz, as can a piano, but I'm will to compromise a little on those lowest notes to achieve better balance throughout the rest of the range.

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      01-25-2012, 12:08 PM   #564
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffb335 View Post
Kaigoss,

After doing a million calibrations sweeps that i know you have done, are you fairly convinced that is what is going on with the midbass issue? I saw it theorized but the discussion never really went anywhere.... So the thinking is that there is a peak in the subs output above the crossover point that the ms-8 sees and since it is above the crossover point it reduces the output of the midbass drivers to compensate.

My experience with the ms-8 and the workarounds seem to support that idea....
I'm going to cut and paste what Andy W. said about it just a few days ago over on DIYMA.com:

"FWIW, I've set up many MS-8s and will agree that OCCASIONALLY, the level matching between the sub and the front channels isn't right the first time. I'm working on that, but that's a different discussion entirely. In EVERY case where the level matching has created a lack of midbass and too much bass, I've been able to solve it by adjusting the sub amp gain UP if there's too much bass and DOWN if there's too little. This may seem counterintuitive, but it works.

Here's why: MS-8 uses 50-80 Hz to figure out the level of the bass. It uses 80-300 to figure out the level of the midbass-midrange. Then, it adjusts the output level of the channels. Then, it EQs the combination of channels. If your sub crossover is set close to the 50Hz spot and the response of your subwoofer has a giant peak between 50 and 80Hz which is common for small seaed boxes, then MS-8 will reduce the level of the channel. this can result in too little bass. If your subwoofer's response has a big peak at 40Hz, then MS-8 will not reduce the level because most of that peak is outside the band of frequencies it checks. That can result in too much bass.

Similarly, if your midbass drivers have a HUGE peak in the response betwen 80 and 300, then MS-8 will reduce the level of those channels. This is the problem in BMWs with underseat woofers and an additional subwoofer--especially if the subwoofer is in the trunk--the seat and the metal wall filter out much of the midbass from the sub and te midbass speakers are super loud in the 80-300Hz region. The Kaigoss Method simply eliminates level matching between sub and midbass and uses only EQ to tune the bass.

Identifying the subwoofer channels as front low, does the same thing. Eliminates the level matching part of the subwoofer algorithm.

So, the skinny here is that MS-8's level matching works GREAT under some conditions and not so well under others. The key (until I can get something done in software--which won't be in the next few weeks) is to do a little work in understanding what situation your system presents to MS-8's algorithm.

First, think about the kind of sub you have--small sealed or ported? Choose 80Hz as the crossover and run the autotune. If your box is small and sealed and you don't hear enough bass, turn the gain of the sub amp DOWN so MS-8 will increase the level of the channel and boost using the EQ. If you have a ported box or big midbass drivers or both, and you don't hear enough midbass and too much bass, turn the gain of the sub amp UP and the midbass amp DOWN down and recalibrate. Once you get to a point where there aren't any huge peaks or dips that you can hear (this will be obvious and one of those "light bulb moments") then use the 31 band EQ to fine tune to your preference.

The midbass region, let's call it 50-500Hz in a car is the most problematic of all. There are a thousand myths about why and about what has to be done to get good midbass and a thousand opinions about how much midbass is right. Regarding MS-8 and the myths: It's very difficult to build an algorithm that can reliably deal with +/- 40dB peaks and dips in the responses between speakers driven by separate channels in this region. MS-8 does work, just not always right the first time depending on your system. Regarding the opinions: MS-8 provides an EQ (31-band) that will allow you to fine tune. It isn't a band-aid. It's an admission that the target curve doesn't make everyone happy. MECA and IASCA competitors are encouraged to boost the midbass for competition.

When I was in Indonesia last month, I listened to thirty or so cars with MS-8. Some had sealed boxes and some had vented boxes. Some of the owners had use the 31-band EQ to tune the midbass and some hadn't. EVERY car had bass impact from the front. Every car had smooth and natural sounding midbass. All of the cars imaged really well and all sounded similar. None were BMWs with woofers under the seats, though.

I guess the point of my rambling here is that, unfortunately, a little tuning and experimentation may be required. I think we've established that in BMWs with the woofers under the seats, the Kaigoss method is more reliable and a bit easier than the standard method. I think we've also begun to understand why that's the case. Since we're begining to understand why, then we have a basis upon which to determine whether that method should be impelemented in other cases too, thanks to all of the contributors here and because I read your posts, take them seriously, think about them and attempt to understand what they mean and use them to provide what I hope is useful feedback.

Believe me, if I still had my team of engineers that developed this thing, firmware updates would be quicker than they are now. I'm not going to explain that in detail. I'll just try my best to help all of you with the tools I have and continue to try to get the rest of the tools I need. "
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      01-25-2012, 12:55 PM   #565
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awesome....havent been on the DIYMA thread in a couple weeks but that is exactly the kind of info I wanted. Confirmation from Andy about how the MS-8 does what it does, and when it doesnt, why. It backs up perfectly what I have suspected from hours of trial and error.

For the record, Im not complaining at all, Ive got my car sounding amazing and I have the MS-8 to thank for it. But as per the above quote from andy, it took a lot of experimenting, the way I see it, the more we understand about why the MS-8 does what it does, the easier it will be to find the optimum settings.

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      01-25-2012, 03:28 PM   #566
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Originally Posted by Nathan_h View Post
Every instance I recall in this long thread has been about such a setup.

Thanks for clearly stating what I wasn't able to. I was referring to the latter situation.

I'm steering clear of drivers like the SWS-8 due to the former situation, as discussed, even with the MS8 in place which could partially correct it. My preference is for a driver built to deliver the heart of the range I am looking for, rather than forced to do what its not optimized for. There's a lot of important musical information in the 100hz to 200hz range. If that means I have to accept roll off below 40hz, that's okay.

A five string bass can get down to 30hz, as can a piano, but I'm will to compromise a little on those lowest notes to achieve better balance throughout the rest of the range.

I meant its major freq range, Sorry. But it was top of my head and I've just double checked and yes 6 string only 6 and 5 play B0 (30Hz) and 1 plays C3 (130Hz) but majority is 40-100Hz

And that's fine a SSMB8 range is 30 - 500 Hz so I can't still see why with the MS-8, you would still need a trunk sub.

In my case I need deep bass and currently not looking to add a trunk sub. So want to keep those lows as they are fine, I just have to sort this mid-bass issue im having with them. Once its sorted, fingers crossed. yes I may of tuned it to achive this but if it plays the mids well and stay this bassy. It doesn't matter how it's doing it as along as its sounds right, it sounds right! Other underseats just won't play this deep and hit this hard. So I may not need sub or any other additional speakers if this works. If NOT, then yes time to look at 6.5/8 in the doors or underseats, subs, MS-8 etc.. Basicly be in your boat...
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      01-25-2012, 04:39 PM   #567
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavlo View Post
I meant its major freq range, Sorry. But it was top of my head and I've just double checked and yes 6 string only 6 and 5 play B0 (30Hz) and 1 plays C3 (130Hz) but majority is 40-100Hz

And that's fine a SSMB8 range is 30 - 500 Hz so I can't still see why with the MS-8, you would still need a trunk sub.
I wouldn't trust my SSMB8 close to 30 hz. I wouldn't trust them to be stellar under say 55, but I haven't tried either. Keep in mind these are low xmax drivers so they don't thump.
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      01-25-2012, 05:52 PM   #568
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Originally Posted by taibanl View Post
I wouldn't trust my SSMB8 close to 30 hz. I wouldn't trust them to be stellar under say 55, but I haven't tried either. Keep in mind these are low xmax drivers so they don't thump.
Cool, thanks for input Tai, i'll take note... Saying that, has anyone tried crossing them at around 40ish on a MS-8/DSP?
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      01-26-2012, 08:36 PM   #569
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So I'm no expert in this, but I do have some observations after testing some things. After trying out some variations of the Kaigoss method, I noticed that by creating a midbass hole in the EQ before calibrating leads to the processor creating less of a hole after the calibration is applied. I tried a flat curve, then a curve with a hole (since Andy says it looks for bass peaks at 50hz, I set that at -5db and slowly worked the curve up in either direction, making sure to continue the hole through the midbass range. After the audio sweeps, I normalized the curve and tweaked it a bit (as well as adjusting the sub level and tone controls) but I definitely do not have a hole anywhere in the frequency range!

I don't have a trunk sub, so this probably wouldn't apply to those that do, but just wanted to pass along my observations about creating the hole before the calibration.
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      01-27-2012, 10:44 AM   #570
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcushing
So I'm no expert in this, but I do have some observations after testing some things. After trying out some variations of the Kaigoss method, I noticed that by creating a midbass hole in the EQ before calibrating leads to the processor creating less of a hole after the calibration is applied. I tried a flat curve, then a curve with a hole (since Andy says it looks for bass peaks at 50hz, I set that at -5db and slowly worked the curve up in either direction, making sure to continue the hole through the midbass range. After the audio sweeps, I normalized the curve and tweaked it a bit (as well as adjusting the sub level and tone controls) but I definitely do not have a hole anywhere in the frequency range!

I don't have a trunk sub, so this probably wouldn't apply to those that do, but just wanted to pass along my observations about creating the hole before the calibration.
If youre referring to the 31 band EQ it is not used in calibration.
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      02-15-2012, 12:03 PM   #571
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Success with the Jehnerts!

Ordered a set from MusicarNW a couple weeks ago, my hope was to be able to get rid of my trunk sub for utility reasons. I was hoping to get "good enough" bass from the underseats for regular listening.

Install was a breeze, I was done in less than an hour. Got the MS8 fired up, did some calibration and it seemed that "good enough" wasnt going to happen, just not enough output. So plan B took over and I left the trunk sub in and calibrated some more, fiddled around and ultimately was 100% happy with the sound quality. The midbass was as close to perfect as I have heard. Solid but open, up on the dash, sweeeeeeeet!

So yesterday I got to thinking....I wonder if I went "old school" and ignored what the MS-8 wanted to do and just adjusted the underseat woofers by ear on my amp and EQ, could I get them "good enough" to leave the trunk sub out most of the time and not really miss it?

Turns out the answer is YES....

I ended up bumping up the gain a bit on the amp and doing about a 3db rise down to about 50hz on the 32 band EQ. And it sounded pretty damn good! Almost equivalent to my trunk sub when I had it set to a normal comfortable level. And the Jehnerts didnt seem to have any problem with it, still great SQ, just playing lower.

And as proof to myself that it was going to work I left all the settings overnight, got in the car this morning, put on some music, and my first thought was "I need to turn the woofers DOWN a tiny bit".

I left my sub amp and a speaker plug in the car so I can throw my sub back in the car if I want to show it off, I set up a different "favorite" on the MS-8 with the optimum settings for running the sub so its easy for me to switch back and forth. So going from optimal settings with sub to optimal settings with underseats as subs is just one switch on my amp (hp xover) and one setting on the MS-8.

Certainly if you are a bass head this is not for you, but for regular listening and preserving trunk utility it seems they fit the bill.

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      02-15-2012, 12:07 PM   #572
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Nice! They do a surprising job, don't they?
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