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      11-15-2010, 10:20 PM   #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VP Electricity View Post
I would never play a 4 or 5 down to 60, and the 4 I wouldn't play below 100, and I have been doing this for over 20 years, so I'm not clear on your problem there.
my problem is my speakers CAN play down to 60hz, as they were playing that low prior to installing the ms-8
and i know it was not something wrong with the crossover on the amp because i had run test tones, so it was a legitimate 60hz
the specs say 55hz
my 4" logic 7s were ok down to 90-100 (not sure as its not labeled on the amp)

i think its also a function of how much power you are giving your speakers
if you are hooking them up to 100watts rms or more, i doubt my speakers could handle 60hz, but i'm only giving them 50watts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VP Electricity View Post
select 20 hz and 6dB if I want no subsonic.

Remember that the sub level control also boosts the midbass ABOVE the xover point.
is it a problem if i have the subsonic at 20hz at 6db, then run that signal to my amp and use my amp crossover?
my concern is i know some orders of crossovers inverse the phase
so i don't want to get into that
because it would be 6db from the MS-8 and 12db from my amp. (so 18db total)

why would the sub level affect the midbass above the crossover point?
i'm just playing with the gain on the sub channel
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      11-15-2010, 10:31 PM   #156
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Honestly, they weren't. I canna break the laws of physics, Captain! I'm not gonna try to figure out why it worked how it did, but your 4" were NOT providing meaningful output that low without bottoming.

Dont worry too much about phase inversion - the mS-8 should fix that.

JBL has posted why their sub level works the way it does - I don't write the news, I just report the news.

Look, I agree that if you have the wrong expectations this thing is confusing and that might be frustrating. But this device has more info about it on the Internet than any other processor, ever. Multiple forum members have made it sound great. If you are failing, so far, I'm not blaming the gear, you know?

"It's a poor workman who blames his tools", my dad always said.

I'm sure you will get this sorted.
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      11-16-2010, 01:08 AM   #157
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Exactly, there is NO exclusive sub level control in the MS-8.
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      11-16-2010, 01:47 AM   #158
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If there is distortion coming from the mids during bass notes, your levels were mismatched during input set-up, and/or the MS-8 gains/volume is not maxed out. Try turning the sub amp gain down a bit more during acoustic calibration. Also, don't try to force unnatural x-over points. The MS-8 knows better than you!!! (I remember wanting to force an x-over point of 2000Hz on my Dyn tweeters with my Alpine headunit a few years ago, since the Dyn tweets can play pretty low and conventional wisdom would tell you that a low x-over point on tweets will improve the front soundstage, but it never sounded right and once I let imprint auto-tune do its thing, it x-ed them over near 6000Hz and it sounded friggin' amazing!) So trust me, it can take a while to get it fine-tuned, but once you are done, it is SO worth it!

Last edited by kaigoss69; 11-16-2010 at 01:55 AM.
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      11-16-2010, 02:15 AM   #159
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If you can feel the sub during calibration, the ms8 volume is too loud. I tend to do it at -40.
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      11-16-2010, 10:20 AM   #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VP Electricity View Post
Honestly, they weren't. I canna break the laws of physics, Captain! I'm not gonna try to figure out why it worked how it did, but your 4" were NOT providing meaningful output that low without bottomin .
i don't have 4" mids, i have 5.25"
their spec sheet says 55-32000, and yes i know you don't like to look at spec sheets
and i was running them at 60hz high pass at 12db/octave.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VP Electricity View Post
Dont worry too much about phase inversion - the mS-8 should fix that
.
when i set my sub crossover to 24db, the subs are out of phase, when i set them to 12db they are in phase.
weird

Quote:
Originally Posted by VP Electricity View Post
If you are failing, so far, I'm not blaming the gear, you know?

"It's a poor workman who blames his tools", my dad always said
.
based on your earlier quote
"Based on some testing yesterday, anyone adding an MS-8 to a BMW E9x who doesn't run a trunk sub, DON'T set it up for the underseats to be subs. Define your system as subless and then define the front as a three-way setup. Otherwise, your 4"s will hate you."
you sort of agree that setting it at having a sub means the fronts get too much bass, so not really bad tools huh
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      11-16-2010, 10:29 AM   #161
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Originally Posted by kaigoss69 View Post
If there is distortion coming from the mids during bass notes, your levels were mismatched during input set-up, and/or the MS-8 gains/volume is not maxed out. Try turning the sub amp gain down a bit more during acoustic calibration. Also, don't try to force unnatural x-over points. The MS-8 knows better than you!!! (I remember wanting to force an x-over point of 2000Hz on my Dyn tweeters with my Alpine headunit a few years ago, since the Dyn tweets can play pretty low and conventional wisdom would tell you that a low x-over point on tweets will improve the front soundstage, but it never sounded right and once I let imprint auto-tune do its thing, it x-ed them over near 6000Hz and it sounded friggin' amazing!) So trust me, it can take a while to get it fine-tuned, but once you are done, it is SO worth it!
well based on what Technic said, i skipped the level adjustment, i just set my headunit volume to 48 (max volume before it distorts)
i have the amp gains at the middle (how they were set prior to MS-8)
normally when i listen i have the MS-8 volume at -10
should i keep it like that when i calibrate?
i normally use -20db, which is what it says in the manual
my problem is i am using the MS-8 to power the rear speakers only
if i have the amp gain any lower, the rear speakers are much louder than the rest of the setup(which is powered by my amp)
so that's why i have the amp gains in the middle, so they other speakers volume match the rears

i wasn't trying to set an unnatural crossover point!
i was trying to high pass the 5.25" mids at 60hz (their spec says 55hz )
the mid to tweeter is being controlled by the MB quart crossover (5200hz)
i'm not messing with that

i have no doubt the MS-8 is worth it
i'm just tired of every single processor having some kind of limitation
i am harsher on the MS-8 because its been in development for the past 10 years
so they should have sorted out all these issues
why can't i disable the subsonic crossover?
why can't i have control of the front speaker crossover if i happen to have a sub?
why isn't sub level the same as every other device i have seen, that it controls sub level and ONLY sub level (hence the name )?
what if i want to have staggered crossover points?
say i want the subs to low pass at 60 and the fronts to high pass at 80
i can't do that with the MS-8
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      11-16-2010, 10:55 AM   #162
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Try:

- amp gains at minimum
- skip input setup
- no sub
- front 2-way (30Hz subsonic at 24dB, 120Hz Hi/Lo at 6dB)
- rear 1-way (100Hz at 24dB)
- center 1-way (150Hz at 24dB)
- calibration volume -45dB

Set MS-8 volume after calibration to -6dB. Adjust amp gains to desired level, you might find that the woofers are low on impact. Adjust the 31-band EQ to taste. Use your OEM volume normally.

Play around with the front Hi/Lo point/slope, calibration volume and amp gains for different results.
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      11-16-2010, 12:18 PM   #163
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Ok, keep bitching about the product and the free advice. I'm sure you're right and your 5" speakers can play to 60 hz.
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      11-17-2010, 12:27 PM   #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VP Electricity View Post
Ok, keep bitching about the product and the free advice. I'm sure you're right and your 5" speakers can play to 60 hz.
why are you angry?
the only thing you got stuck on was the 60hz that i mentioned
a quick look on crutchfield says most 5.25" component speakers can get into the 60hz range
the only ones that can not are all made by Focal.

i did not "bitch" on the free advice
i was simply saying, that the MS-8 was not as flexible as i would have liked.
or is just the fact that you sell the MS-8, so you are a little bit impartial??
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      11-17-2010, 12:31 PM   #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Technic View Post
Try:

- amp gains at minimum
- skip input setup
- no sub
- front 2-way (30Hz subsonic at 24dB, 120Hz Hi/Lo at 6dB)
- rear 1-way (100Hz at 24dB)
- center 1-way (150Hz at 24dB)
- calibration volume -45dB

Set MS-8 volume after calibration to -6dB. Adjust amp gains to desired level, you might find that the woofers are low on impact. Adjust the 31-band EQ to taste. Use your OEM volume normally.

Play around with the front Hi/Lo point/slope, calibration volume and amp gains for different results.
believe it or not
setting all crossovers to 12db (except the subsonic, that was set to 6db)
made a big difference in the sound

rear and center i had them set to what you suggested
any lower for center and it starts to buzz on the bass heavy parts
and the rears should be 100hz based on JBLs recommendations
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      11-17-2010, 12:36 PM   #166
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try this. go into the audio settings menu on the MS8, and set "Processing" to "Defeat" - then set your amp gains until everything sounds good. Then run calibration.
and please don't bitch at me.
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      11-19-2010, 01:32 AM   #167
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I would SERIOUSLY consider moving your mid HP up an octave. Yes, they're rated to play to 55Hz... at 1 Watt. You also need to see the freq. plot and see how much lower it is at the bottom limit than the rest of the band. That's going to cause all kinds of issues with blending.

What you have to rememebr is that the plots you see from a manufacturer are absolute best case scenarios with 1 Watt, at 1M. It will not play that low with any meaningful output, at 60Hz. Trust me.

You'd be MUCH better off setting your mid HP at 120 and your midbass LP at 120 Hz. Even if you're not using a midbass and your 5s are mating to a sub 120Hz is STILL a better choice. Trust me, I've done it hundreds of times. It'll sound great and last much, much longer.
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      11-19-2010, 01:37 AM   #168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
why are you angry?
the only thing you got stuck on was the 60hz that i mentioned
a quick look on crutchfield says most 5.25" component speakers can get into the 60hz range
the only ones that can not are all made by Focal.
Yes, they are rated to 55Hz. They won't play worth a crap that low.
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      11-27-2010, 01:16 PM   #169
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I am having troubles with my MS-8. I am thinking that it may be defective but want to hear some feedback from the great minds in this forum before.

My setup (all installed):
- Integra Ovation XO 4" (center channel)
- Hybrid Ovation 4 Comp - Morel 4" (2 fronts and 2 backs)
- ADMW SW 9 - Morel 9" (2 underseat subs)
- Memphis 15-SHP10 (1 main trunk sub)
- 16-MC4.125 - Memphis 125 x 4 Class AB Full Range Amplifiers (driving fronts and backs)
- PMZ1502 - Alphasonik 2 Ch. 150 Watt Amplifier (driving center)
- Memphis Belle (driving underseat subs in bridged mode and trunk sub 1.1KW)
- DSP: Previously the 3SIXTY.2 and now the MS-8

This is with the stock headunit (base, not Logic7) of a 2010 e90 335i X using Technic's harness.

This setup worked very well with the 3Sixty and I was very pleased except that I didn't have the ability to control the underseat subs independently. I moved to the MS-8 to get this ability.

When I got the MS-8 a couple weeks ago, I set it up a couple of times going through the Input Setup/Calibration, etc and got decent results. I've done it about 3 - 4 times as it is kind of a work in progress to find the best tweak.

Here is the problem:

Now when I try to run the Input setup and the first 2 OK's, it oscillates between balance right and balance left and sometime jumps to noisy or no signal - but mostly between balance left and right. It is disconcerting to see it jump back and forth when I'm not changing anything. it changes back and forth every few seconds so I can never get to the "ok ok ok" to finish the calibration.

The doors are all closed (so no door chime) and when I start this process, I start with the volume low on the head unit and gradually raise it until the MS-8 says Signal OK and Level OK, but the balance never calms down. Of course, the HU balance is dead center (the "Tone" page is all in the default position).

I've tried tweaking the balance off-center but that did not help the situation. I have also rigorously checked the wiring to make sure they are not at fault. I even plugged the 3Sixtly back in and it still works great. So I am convinced that there is something wrong with the MS-8. I also re-checked how I wired the MS-8 harness for the hi input wires (front and Rear speakers on inputs 1 - 4).

Have any of you encountered this type of situation? Can any of you see where I might be missing something? Or shall I try to return it for repair?

Thanks -

Last edited by DeFKnoL; 11-27-2010 at 03:33 PM.
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      11-27-2010, 01:24 PM   #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeFKnoL View Post
I am having troubles with my MS-8. I am thinking that it may be defective but want to hear some feedback from the great minds in this forum before.

My setup (all installed):
- Integra Ovation XO 4" (center channel)
- Hybrid Ovation 4 Comp - Morel 4" (2 fronts and 2 backs)
- ADMW SW 9 - Morel 9" (2 underseat subs)
- Memphis 15-SHP10 (1 main trunk sub)
- 16-MC4.125 - Memphis 125 x 4 Class AB Full Range Amplifiers (driving fronts and backs)
- PMZ1502 - Alphasonik 2 Ch. 150 Watt Amplifier (driving center)
- Memphis Belle (driving underseat subs in bridged mode and trunk sub 1.1KW)
- DSP: Previously the 3SIXTY.2 and now the MS-8

This is with the stock headunit of a 2010 e90 335i X using Technic's harness.

This setup worked very well with the 3Sixty and I was very pleased except that I didn't have the ability to controll the underseat subs independently. I moved to the MS-8 to get ability.

When I go the MS-8 a couple weeks ago, I set it up a couple of time going through the Input Setup/ calibration, etc and got decent results. I've done it about 3 - 4 times as it is kind of a work in progress to find the best tweak.

Here is the problem:

Now when I try to run the Input setup and the first 2 OK's, it oscillates between balance right and balance left and sometime jumps to noisy or no signal - but mostly between balance left and right. It is disconcerting to see it jump back and forth when I'm not changing anything. it changes batck and forth avery few seconds so I can never get to the ok ok ok to finish the calibration.

The doors are all closed (so no seat belt ping) and when I start this process, I start low and gradually raise the volume on the head unit the MS-8 says Signal OK and Level OK, but the balance never calms down. Of course, the HU balance is dead center (the "Tone" page is all in the default position).

I've tried tweaking the balance offcenter but that did not help the situation. I have also rigorously checked by wiring to make sure they are not at fault. I even plugged the 3Sixtly back in and it still works great. So I am convinced that there is something wrong with the MS-8. I also re-checked how I wired the MS-8 harness for the hi input wires (front and Rear speakers on inputs 1 - 4).

Have any of you encountered this type of situation? Can any of you see where I might be missing something? Or shall I try to return it for repair?

Thanks -
Use another calibration CD... report back.
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      11-27-2010, 02:50 PM   #171
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You can download the CD online, someone hosted the files. Just need to burn the WAV files to a CD. Do a google and you should find it easily.

Also, why are you using 4 input channels on the MS-8? It should work fine with just the front inputs assuming you have base audio.
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      11-27-2010, 03:00 PM   #172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaigoss69 View Post
You can download the CD online, someone hosted the files. Just need to burn the WAV files to a CD. Do a google and you should find it easily.

Also, why are you using 4 input channels on the MS-8? It should work fine with just the front inputs assuming you have base audio.
Thanks.

I use the 4 inputs with the hopes that if I change the fading during regular use, it will take effect through the DSP. Had no problem with this when using the 3Sixty and would not expect to loose fading capability from the HU with the MS-8.


I Ripped the CD as ALAC onto my iPod and used that with do difference in results. I will try downloading it next but I'm not thinking it will make a difference. Remember, it did not have a problem before and the CD does not get much movement - meaning it is not scratched.
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      11-27-2010, 03:15 PM   #173
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I found the file in this forum:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/...disc-help.html

I burned it to a CD and used it and again had the same results.
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      11-27-2010, 07:48 PM   #174
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I would try disconnecting the rears (you lose fader regardless - just how it is) and If that didn't work I would try running the front signals into another set of inputs (5/6?) and test. If that's the same i'd conclude it's bad.
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      11-28-2010, 10:35 PM   #175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VP Electricity View Post
I would try disconnecting the rears (you lose fader regardless - just how it is) and If that didn't work I would try running the front signals into another set of inputs (5/6?) and test. If that's the same i'd conclude it's bad.
Thanks, VP. I actually did try removing the rears with the same results. I did not try other inputs however. But I have contacted JBL directly and they are going to give me an RMA# for a return. So I guess it is a scenario that does not meet with their expectations. I'll keep y'all posted.

Here is my summary review of the device for those trying to decide wether to purchase one.

I must say that as far as control and tweakability, I am underwhelmed with the MS-8. It feels like going from Linux to Windows when coming from the 3Sixty. I certainly don't like having to go through the entire setup process again if I want to change a crossover point. Also, I would like the power to manually change the delays where the 3Sixty does it . Another thing is that the MS-8 did not give the capabilty to change the equalization independently on each channel like the 3 Sixty does. If the 3Sixty had 8 channels and the cool Logic7 processing, I would have stuck with that. I can only hope that JBL will release a new firmware that provides these advanced capabilities. But therein lies a great aspect of the MS-8 - its software is upgradable. I did not see that capability in the 3Sixty.

If I did not like to tweak things myself, then the MS-8 would be perfect because for most people, it "just works" and it has a brilliant soundstage without too much effort.

So to summarize, my opinions of the MS-8:

Pro's:
- 8 channel
- Logic 7
- Great setup and calibration procedure with "Binaural" microphone
- Remote control that does not require the line of sight
- Excelent staging

Con's:
- Only one single graphic equalizer for entire system (no independent equalizrions for each channel)
- No manual delay tweaking (although the microphone calibration generally makes up for this)
- Required to pass through entire setup process to make changes to any channel (above just balancing and changing channel group volume)
- Tedious interface for setting crossovers (and only is main setup procedure)
- Large unit (physical size:8-3/8"D x 11-1/2"W x 2-3/16"H)
- Crossover points are forced to be in series with each other (HP, BP, LP filters cannot be set independently)
- Price (~$800.00)

Perhaps many of these cons may be removed someday with a firmware update. Until then, these are my complaints. Otherwise, i will still be happy to have the device for its strengths.
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      11-28-2010, 11:14 PM   #176
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So, basically, you bought it not knowing what it did? Did you read about it first?

That's kind of like criticizing a Z4 for poor rear seat room and insufficient luggage space, isn't it? The criticism is factually correct - but it's not SUPPOSED to have those things.

I would not say that those are advanced capabilities, in the sense you mean. There is gear on the market that does those things. Most people can't use them properly. The MS-8 is not trying to be a me-too product, it is trying to redefine a category. In order for the MS-8 to sell enough to generate nearly enough revenue, it has to be darn near foolproof. Every means of goofing up the sound is a potential failure point.

Put another way, your listed complaints are not performance issues - they seem indicative that you wanted a different product. Other than the input problem (the occurrence of which I am not questioning, but I'm glad that it's rare), the MS-8 seems to be doing exactly what it's supposed to do, and what it was defined to do.

Based on public statements by, and personal conversations with, the product manager for the MS-8, I am pretty certain he would say, it's not for you, and was not intended to be, based on your expectations of it doing things it's not supposed to do.

As you point out, the MS-8 can get your car sounding better than most pros can, and most DIY installers can.

I don't like the 360 - not because of its performance in general - it also does what it's supposed to do - but because I've had noise problems with it in BMWs, and it doesn't have enough channels and it should have more output voltage.

The Zapco DC amps or the DSP-6 will give you better sound and better processing control than the 360 - IF you want to go to something with manual control. I tried turning off my DC amp processing and listened to an MS-8 instead. My tune was better - slightly - and mine took a long time to get to.

For what it's worth, it's not for me - as I said, I get better results without it in my system and my car, and I don't like center channels personally. As far as offering it for sale, I wish it was smaller and I wish it had a small Class D IC output and I wish it did all those things you list (but I know - I KNOW - that if it did all those things, the development would have taken even longer and it would cost more thereby as Harman tries to recoup even more sunk costs).

If you put a BitOne and an MS-8 together and they had a love child who figured outnhow to equalize parametrically, that would be pretty cool. But they come from two totally different places.
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Ask about our bolt-in audio upgrades for BMW.
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