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      06-01-2010, 07:41 AM   #1
Chris.G
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Self Defence for sure...

Self defence against aid workers with so called knives and clubs leads to automatic gun fire by Israeli commandos, which leads to ten deaths. Even Benjo had a hard time trying to sell his self defence speech to the reporters and international community. His facial expressions were saying i hope they buy this Opinions please.

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/1...f-Israeli-raid
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      06-01-2010, 10:05 AM   #2
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Nothing new. Just consider what they did to the USS Liberty, which was also in international waters.
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      06-01-2010, 10:10 AM   #3
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I believe our blind support of Isreal during this kind of thing is more than enough evidence the consipracy theorists need that our country (and probably the world) is controlled by the Neo-Cons.

The Majestic Group, anyone?
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      06-01-2010, 10:48 AM   #4
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1) Turkish decision makers knew how Israel would react and were waiting to exploit the inevitable clash. The provocation was as cynical as it was orchestrated. 2) The lead vessel just happened to have an al-jazeera TV crew to films israels response. 3) In yesterdays melee, Israel behaved clumsily. The peace activists behaved savegely. The Turks behaved cynically and the world behaved predictably.

Yesterdays aid convoy incident off the coast of Gaza wasnt about bringing humanitarian aid to a terrorist ruled territory. It wasn't even about Israel. It was about Turkeys determination to position itself as the leading Muslim State in the Middle East.
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      06-01-2010, 11:22 AM   #5
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1) Turkish decision makers knew how Israel would react and were waiting to exploit the inevitable clash. The provocation was as cynical as it was orchestrated. 2) The lead vessel just happened to have an al-jazeera TV crew to films israels response. 3) In yesterdays melee, Israel behaved clumsily. The peace activists behaved savegely. The Turks behaved cynically and the world behaved predictably.

Yesterdays aid convoy incident off the coast of Gaza wasnt about bringing humanitarian aid to a terrorist ruled territory. It wasn't even about Israel. It was about Turkeys determination to position itself as the leading Muslim State in the Middle East.
From today’s Haaretz editorial page:

“The Price of Flawed Policy”
“Fiasco on the High Seas”
“Seven Idiots in the Cabinet”
“A Failure Any Way You Slice It”

I guess that not everyone in the Israeli press got the fax with the Fox News talking points.
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      06-01-2010, 12:32 PM   #6
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From today’s Haaretz editorial page:

“The Price of Flawed Policy”
“Fiasco on the High Seas”
“Seven Idiots in the Cabinet”
“A Failure Any Way You Slice It”

I guess that not everyone in the Israeli press got the fax with the Fox News talking points.
One of that the organizers of this flotilla thing was a jewish holocaust survivor. And regarding the Israeli press. Its being run by jewish libertards (liberal + retard = libertards). The same ones who helped get Obama elected.

This was has nothing to do with helping palistinians. It is just a smoke screen to push the Turkish agenda in the middle east.
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      06-01-2010, 02:52 PM   #7
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and what is this Turkish agenda you speak of?
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      06-01-2010, 04:02 PM   #8
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and what is this Turkish agenda you speak of?
1. Collect underpants
2. ?
3. Profit
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      06-01-2010, 07:06 PM   #9
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and what is this Turkish agenda you speak of?
Read my 2nd paragraph in post #4 and you will see what I wrote. Turkey is is saying they are pro west and are screaming democracy democracy however inside their country it is becoming slightly more radicalized in a slow methodical manner. They would like to be as powerful as the Ottoman empire once was. If they show the middle east they are a religious nation they can begin to become a powerful entity in the Middle East. At the same time pretend they are pro west to quell the masses in the West.
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      06-01-2010, 10:48 PM   #10
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lol what do you expect from a country surrounded by enemies?
They're not trigger happy, they're in a state of forced paranoia
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      06-02-2010, 03:32 AM   #11
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lol what do you expect from a country surrounded by enemies?
They're not trigger happy, they're in a state of forced paranoia

So that makes it okay for them to kill civilian aid workers that were supposedly armed with clubs and knives (footage i viewed only showed chairs thrown). These guys were trained commandos with automatic weapons, the least they could have done was shoot legs or arms to disable the so called attackers. There were four Australians on board journalists and aid workers, one of the journalists had been shot in the leg. I really have a hard time believing a journo is a threat to Israeli seal team. I can’t wait till we can get the findings of the U.N investigation into this matter.
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      06-02-2010, 10:19 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris.G View Post
So that makes it okay for them to kill civilian aid workers that were supposedly armed with clubs and knives (footage i viewed only showed chairs thrown). These guys were trained commandos with automatic weapons, the least they could have done was shoot legs or arms to disable the so called attackers. There were four Australians on board journalists and aid workers, one of the journalists had been shot in the leg. I really have a hard time believing a journo is a threat to Israeli seal team. I can’t wait till we can get the findings of the U.N investigation into this matter.
Chris you are funny. Im not sure where you are getting your info from. However if you look at this video you see the automatic weapons you are talking about were actually paintball guns. However the commandos were armed with pistols. You will even see one of those pistols being taken away and thrown.



Don't take this the wrong way. I am not trying to pick a fight with you however you are looking at this from a totally different perspective. You are viewing this as a normal human being with emotions which is the right thing to do. You heard civilians were killed and that played to your emotions. From a political and military standpoint Turkey got what they wanted. the focus isnt on what Turkey did but on what Turkey wanted to do and how the Israelis bungled it up. But make no mistake about this....this wasn't about bringing aid to Gaza. This was more to see how the US will react....this was to show the middle east that Turkey is an up and coming power in the Middle east and this was to test how far Israel would go. This entire ordeal was a well calculated and orchestrated event by Turkey

Last edited by cycler; 06-02-2010 at 10:50 AM.
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      06-02-2010, 10:58 AM   #13
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Hmmmm, so this was done in international waters ...
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      06-02-2010, 11:29 AM   #14
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Hmmmm, so this was done in international waters ...
Yes it was done in international waters.
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      06-02-2010, 06:34 PM   #15
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Quote:
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Don't take this the wrong way. I am not trying to pick a fight with you however you are looking at this from a totally different perspective. ]
This is why i asked for opinions on the matter. I understand your point of view as well, politics always plays a part in these sort of actions (on both sides). The info given through to SBS news (one of the better quality news channels in Australia) is still some what flawed when it comes to what weapons were used. Either way as i said before i would love to know what the outcome of the investigation by UN is. What actions could UN take against Israel?
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      06-02-2010, 08:05 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris.G View Post
So that makes it okay for them to kill civilian aid workers that were supposedly armed with clubs and knives (footage i viewed only showed chairs thrown). These guys were trained commandos with automatic weapons, the least they could have done was shoot legs or arms to disable the so called attackers.
NOBODY does this. If you employ deadly force, you had better mean to kill them. There is no standard for "shoot to wound", not by any military, police force or country. The use of deadly force means exactly that, deadly force. You can make an argument that deadly force was not justified, but by looking at the video of them getting attacked with clubs, chairs and knives, I'd say the response was measured and appropriate.

Quote:
There were four Australians on board journalists and aid workers, one of the journalists had been shot in the leg. I really have a hard time believing a journo is a threat to Israeli seal team. I can’t wait till we can get the findings of the U.N investigation into this matter.
In the heat of the struggle, where were these people? Standing right there I assume? It is very hard to discern the attackers from the bystanders in such close quarters. If you see troops fast-roping onto your ship, you have two choices: Defend & Repel or Hide. "Spectate" is not one of the choices. And, if you choose to Defend & Repel, then understand that injury or death are possible outcomes.

The lesson here? If you don't want to get shot, be somewhere else. If you want to protest and take action that puts you in the crosshairs, you had damn well better be ready for the consequences. Israel has never been one to pull punches, and any fool knows that.


Also: AP article out of Paris that the Turkish "charity" that organized this stunt has ties to terrorism...
AP INTERVIEW: Turkish aid group had terror ties
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      06-02-2010, 09:23 PM   #17
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Quote:
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NOBODY does this. If you employ deadly force, you had better mean to kill them. There is no standard for "shoot to wound", not by any military, police force or country. The use of deadly force means exactly that, deadly force. You can make an argument that deadly force was not justified, but by looking at the video of them getting attacked with clubs, chairs and knives, I'd say the response was measured and appropriate.



Also: AP article out of Paris that the Turkish "charity" that organized this stunt has ties to terrorism...
AP INTERVIEW: Turkish aid group had terror ties
If only what you said would only be true. I live in NY and the government is run by a bunch of libertards. There is a bill in the air that would make cops shoot to wound and not shoot to kills. They would have to aim at the perps arms and legs LOL.

http://www.newser.com/story/89960/ny...ound-bill.html
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      06-02-2010, 09:25 PM   #18
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Quote:
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This is why i asked for opinions on the matter. I understand your point of view as well, politics always plays a part in these sort of actions (on both sides). The info given through to SBS news (one of the better quality news channels in Australia) is still some what flawed when it comes to what weapons were used. Either way as i said before i would love to know what the outcome of the investigation by UN is. What actions could UN take against Israel?
Chris regarding who was on the ship. It was pretty ironic that al-jazeera news was there. And the ones who attacked the Israeli commandos have all been linked to al queda as well as other islamic extremest groups. As usual these islamic groups have gotten their own kind killed in the name of allah
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      06-02-2010, 11:29 PM   #19
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If only what you said would only be true. I live in NY and the government is run by a bunch of libertards. There is a bill in the air that would make cops shoot to wound and not shoot to kills. They would have to aim at the perps arms and legs LOL.

http://www.newser.com/story/89960/ny...ound-bill.html
Yeah, that is retardation on an epic scale. If the fools in NY government actually get this to pass, they'll be sued like crazy. "You killed my boy! You were supposed to just wound him! Now pay me!" Or "You wounded my boy, now he can never walk or play basketball, and he'll be shitting in a bag for the rest of his life! Now pay me!"

It is simple, you either are justified in using deadly force, or you are not. If you can't justify it (and have that stand up to a jury or peer review), you don't shoot, period. "Shoot to wound" is monumental stupidity....
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      06-03-2010, 02:03 AM   #20
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Yes it was done in international waters.
so that gives right every nation can do samething in international waters..
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      06-03-2010, 06:20 AM   #21
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so that gives right every nation can do samething in international waters..
Let me ask you something since you are being a little biased here because I think you are turkish. If you had intelligence that known terrorists were on board a humanitarian ship that could either be carrying weapons or aid and was coming to the shores of your country what would you do? How would you act when you told the ship countless times not to enter your waters and they kept coming?

By the way the turkish government might of condemed this as a political move and removed its ambassador from Israel however behind the scenes they are still trading military secrets with the israelis as well as weapons. That has not stopped. So you tell me, do you really think the Turkish government really cared what the Israelis did when they boarded? No they didnt especially when they knew known terrorists were on that ship. This was all about seeing how the US reacted and the US reacted perfectly for a change.
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      06-03-2010, 08:21 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cycler View Post
If only what you said would only be true. I live in NY and the government is run by a bunch of libertards. There is a bill in the air that would make cops shoot to wound and not shoot to kills. They would have to aim at the perps arms and legs LOL.

http://www.newser.com/story/89960/ny...ound-bill.html
The cops needed 50 bullets to bring unarmed man down? No wonder there is a bill to not have them not shoot to kill.
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