[N54LOL]

Dear Shiv,

This is not the time, nor the place, to discuss tunes. With all due respect, Enrita blew his motor. In order to gain valuable discuss on the n54 platform, it is best to leave this discussion for a different time or different location. Regardless of the tune used, even your proCEDE, damage could occur. Now I know you will insert your typical "The procede is the greatest thing since Chocolate cake comment here", but I would advise you to avoid doing so. You can join your fanboys on e90post, the same place where you have moderator powers, but lets leave this discussion for Enritas new motor.

Frankly, your comments are very childish.

"Which is why it didn't save Enrita's engine from knocking itself to failure."

Let me ask you this, have you personally seen Enritas engine? Let Enrita answer the questions on the tune, but you can refrain. You are just making silly assumptions and making an ass out of yourself.

K, thanx, bye.

Listen pal (I don't know your name). Enrita already disclosed that he had a ring land failure due to detonation. And the tune he used at the time of failure offers no active timing control. Any other tune (CP-E, GIAC, Procede), ALL of which offer timing control, would have greatly reduced the chance of that particular failure from occurring. Learn a bit more about engine tuning before slamming me for posting fact.

Others need to learn that a boost controller doesn't not constitute a tune. Yes, you can get away with one in lower specific output conditions, in which case, you'd just experience inconsistent performance as many do. But pushed to higher specific outputs where the stakes are raised by higher cylinder pressure, the consequences of relying completely on a reactive timing control system (knock sensor) are very expensive as Enrita is unfortunately seeing. He's not a tuner so no fault to him whatsoever. It's just sad that certain parties has publicly suggested that proactive knock control doesn't work. Because people fell for it. And now they are learning otherwise after considerable expense.

Shiv

.

[TheBoomerM3]

Oh damn, enrita blew the motor??

[kyleb350]

In before the lock/delete/ban.

Don't know what was communicated before this but it just sounds like someone (OP?) egging Shiv on. Looks like Shiv's just stating facts here

[JonLerd]

sounds like facts to me and i don't have either tune....how can people contest to the vast amount of engineering that shiv has put into the procede that is beyond what most people have asked? I honestly wouldn't be surprised if the procede had a facebook interface tomorrow....one way or another the procede platform is breaking new ground and pushing the movement more so than any other tune in my opinion...be greatful!

[Sniz]

IF the above stated is true.....shiv is right in what he said in that quote.

i'm assuming there are other reasons as well but I'd like a tune to adjust timing.....its common freakin sense.

/thread

[OpenFlash]

Since the OP brought this up in the first place, here are more postings....

----------------------
unfor

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Shiv
Oh wow. How many times have you repeated these exact same comments on different forums to other members? too much to count.

----------------------

Sticky

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

This makes sense but just to be clear was the engine failure while running a JB3 or the GIAC flash?

I don't know if I would blame the JB3 for it as the factory knock control is still left in place. I don't understand why there would be more instability if it is good enough control for the factory DME. Nothing much can be done when the motor detonates at high boost with no fuel... would have blown no matter what sounds like. Don't want to speculate, we need more info from enrita.

--------------------
Terry@BMS

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Shiv you're really being intellectually dishonest with these comments. Enrico made a big mistake trying to support the power he did on pump gas+meth with no safety in place. And that was not done with my advice. But today you have more customers than ever running around with no CPS offset than you've ever had. Many pushing 17+psi with meth and not all using a safety. His objective was max power for race day and given his timing values on the meth looked good he would have been running a zero offset. The reality is it takes a certain amount of octane to safely support a given certain effective compression ratio and he was likely on the wrong side of that equation. As you well know we've seen many CPS offset cars collapse pistons with much less boost/power than this.

Given the circumstances I'm not convinced he didn't run that cylinder lean through an injector cutout. The plugs used are also a suspect. Hopefully I'll get a chance to look at the photos of the plugs at some point. Not running a hardwire safety while relying on meth for octane and fuel and trying to do it on pump gas was the recipe for disaster. And will continue to be so regardless of tuning used.

-------------------

Terry@BMS
Supporting Vendor

Originally Posted by Sticky

I don't know if I would blame the JB3 for it as the factory knock control is still left in place. I don't understand why there would be more instability if it is good enough control for the factory DME. Nothing much can be done when the motor detonates at high boost with no fuel... would have blown no matter what sounds like. Don't want to speculate, we need more info from enrita.
Enrico prefers the flash tuning (and has a relationship with his GIAC dealer there) but they were not able to get the GIAC working with the larger turbos. So he threw on a JB3 he or someone had sitting around. Which was working well but he was tripping the 20psi safety limit. So he asked me to raise it, and I did, but I was under the impression he would be running those levels on race gas with a meth safety and he was under the impression he could do it on pump gas without the safety. I think I should have been a lot more clear with him the risks involved and explained why race gas is required even if the timing is good on pump+meth during single gear pulls.

Be that as it may he collapsed a piston at around 22psi after a few 40-150mph runs. I guess it was running strong before the failure though.

Now Shiv is much like a vulcher flying around and when he smells the opportunity to market regardless of the circumstances his instincts kick in and he just can't help himself. Forget motors he's blown or details that don't fit with his talking points. He'll just rattle them out anyway and play stupid.

People who have been around him for some time can see through him. And those that don't will soon enough. Personally I think he knows what we have in store for his little "$1000 a shot" tuning empire implemented on a $60 per unit box and is just pushing back while he still can.

------------------------

shiv@vishnu

Typical behavior on your part Terry. You get such a boner for trying to win races that you give a customer tune that runs at the limit of the map sensor. How the hell can any boost control (let alone something as variable as your product) control boost when the process variable can't read positive error? And you raised the boost limit upon request? I know this is the first turbo car you have ever tuned. Heck, just last year you thought there was heavy vacuum at the inlet of the turbo. I shouldn't be surprised. And this is not about Enrita not running race gas. Race gas or not, the tune you told him to run was fundamentally flawed. And even any novice tuner would know that.

Shiv

-------------------------

Sticky

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Sounds like he gave the customer what the customer asked for?

Why are you blaming the tune when we don't even have all the details and so far it seems hardware limitations were at fault?

What are you basing this being a novice mistake on, the end result? What specifically?

--------------------

shiv@vishnu

Originally Posted by Sticky

The customer is not the expert. It's up to the tuner to know that what he is asking for isn't feasible. If the tuner understood tuning fundamentals and explained to the user that running at the limit of the MAP sensor basically removes any form of functional boost control and DME load determination, I'd like to believe that the request would be amended. The lack of ignition control meant that there was no safety net that kicked in when the MAP sensor bounced against 5v. A condition that should not have even occurred in the first place.

-------------------

Sticky

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Absolutely, the customer is not the expert and I agree. However, if I was your customer and I wanted something out of the box, even against your wishes or expertise, you wouldn't give it to me? I expect to get whatever the hell it is I want for my money and for my car.

What factory failsafes were still in place even with this crossed boost threshhold? Is your point regarding ignition control in this specific instance or with the JB3 as a whole?

-----------------------

carcars

I think there are many interests in the middle, and some take the opportunity to put between the good name of JB3 and terry.

I have not met anyone so friendly and so professional like Terry, I never would doubt their work and their professionalism.

Greetings from Spain.

---------------------

enrita

Update:
My shop disassembled the cylinder head and they found quite some play on the exhaust valves.
The exhaust valves themselves are quite dirty and need to be fixed.
They have therefore strongly recommended to renovate the head and fix the seating of the exhaust valves. Intake valves and seatings were pristine. they also noticed a huge chance to do some very extensive porting on the intake valves.
Apparently seems BMW closed up the valves a lot after creating the head probably in order to keep down fuel consumption.
After porting lots of improvement in terms of throttle response and overall power can be achieved.

All the parts will arrive on tuesday and hopefully by wednesday/thursday the head will be done. After that it will take around a week to install everything back.
Porting will cost around 1000 USD and the head renovation about 1700 USD.

----------------------

Pea

I was present when Enrita blew the engine , he had not received any instructions to run racegas, he had also not asked for a map that was set to 21.7 psi he requested a map that was limp free and had stable boost. As far as I knew Enrita didn’t even know that the map could boost that high.
As a professional, I find it irresponsible to use a customer as a guinea pig for a map that can destroy the engine. And it is not fare to insinuate that it was Enrita one fault.
In this case I think that the tuner should accept responsibility and cower the cost.

-------------------

SlicktopTTZ

Shiv and Terry are actually step-brothers....



The head porting sounds interesting, should help you get some more torque up top once everything is back together.


Thanks for all the info Enrita, I wish you luck!

------------------------

Terry@BMS
Supporting Vendor

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Hi Shiv,

I'm afraid you're wrong about the TMAP sensor.

The JB3 uses .127 volt per PSI. His ambient voltage is 1.92. 5 volts - 1.92 volts divided by .127 volt per PSI = 24.25psi as observed by the JB3 as the ceiling. The .127 value has proven to match mechanical gauges pretty well. So his ~22psi was ~4.71 volts with plenty of room on the top side of that.

Of course even at that 4.71v the duty cycle was well maxed out so there was no mechanism to raise boost higher.

---------------------

Terry@BMS
Supporting Vendor

Originally Posted by Sticky

It sounds like the likely scenario is a communications problem and I should have never removed the safety boost limit for him. But there are lots of factors. For example he had O2 sensor codes before and during the races. That brings the air/fuel ratios in to question, etc.

---------------------

Terry@BMS
Supporting Vendor

Originally Posted by Pea

That is a little unfair. He told me he would be on race gas.

I also had limited limited interaction with him on the tuning and not a lot of data to go on. I was helping him for free as his first solution had not worked well enough and he wanted to get his car running for these races. I asked him to try the latest round of settings and report back with logs. But those logs never came. Just a note that he did 3 races and broke something on the 3rd run. Anyway it was a definite communications break down. But that isn't going to turn back time. Next time no more than 21psi and only on race gas + meth with a hardwire safety.

----------------------------

shiv@vishnu
Guest Vendor

Sorry Terry but the boost control system in the jb3 isn't remotely accurate/consistent. All your customers note a 1-2 psi swing in actual boost depending on atmospheric conditions. Since you raise boost setpoint by MAP signal attenuation, this range would be proportional with the setpoint. So the more boost your tune runs, the more sloppy it gets. If he was seeing 22psi, he was at the limit of the map sensor. Period.

Shiv

[mkiv]

morning shiv, get a cup of coffee~ and relex man.

[badass335]

holy macro.....

[dmurray14]

Wow. Subscribed to observe this trainwreck.

[OpenFlash]

shiv@vishnu
Guest Vendor

Originally Posted by Sticky

If I told you that running your boost at the upper limit of MAP sensor response would likely destroy your engine, would you still ask for said tune? I doubt it.

In this case with the JB3, there are NO factory failsafes in place other than the factory knocks sensor. The JB3 is feeding back a modified MAP sensor signal to the DME, telling it that it running 6-8psi of boost. And with the MAP sensor maxed out at full reading, the JB3 doesn't even know what actual boost is. See the problem?

Add to that, the FACT that the JB3 has:
-No ignition control
-No ability to read AFR
-No ability to monitor timing/knock
-No ability to drop WG dc below stock (which is a HUGE shortcoming when mapping upgraded turbos)

... and you have a very big chance of a $20k disaster.

-----------------

Terry@BMS
Supporting Vendor

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Shiv,

That's a nice story but you failed to address the point. You said the TMAP sensor can only read up to 22psi. I just showed you it can read up to 24psi. And now we're waiting for your response on that. It does bring up a question though. How is the PROcede software calibrated in regard to volts per PSI? Are you telling us that PROcede owners are running more boost than they think they are?

------------------

Terry@BMS
Supporting Vendor

More bullshit. It turns out Enrico was logging a couple of his runs that day. Unfortunately we don't have timing advance in the JB3 yet so that has to be done via the BT. And he was not logging with the BT.

But here is his log before he broke. 22psi peak, 18psi @ redline, no automatic shift spikes like are observed with your tuning solutions. A very stable boost curve. The problem here (ignoring potential injector lockup, the o2 codes, etc) was simply octane. 93 octane + 650ml/min of 70% meth IS NOT ENOUGH to support these power levels on the N54. Especially during back to back top speed runs. He should have been on race gas, 1200ml/min of meth (or more), and with a solid hardwire safety in place.

--------------
Shiv@vishnu

The MAP sensor can only read up to 155kPA (or 22.5psi) as verified by scalbert with his industrial grade GE pressure calibration system a while back. And this value is measured at the intercooler pipe. After the pressure loss induced by the 90 deg bend and the throttle blade/body, maximum readable manifold pressure is well under 22psi (depending on mass airflow). Your calculations are based upon your jb3's boost "control" system which, as all your customers will attest to, isn't exactly the paragon of accuracy due to the fact that you piggyback off of a moving target (the DME's boost control set point which varies from from 6-9psi depending on conditions).

Posting logs from when Enrita's car ran less boost is completely irrelevant and another example of how disingenuous you are as a tuner. The rest of your embarrassingly weak arguments hold no water either. qed.

Shiv

---------------

Pea
Member

Originally Posted by Terry@BMS

Communication break down? If you send a map that could cause that kind of PSI and don´t give the custumer a prober documentation it is still your responsibility as the tuner as i se it.
If you made a mistake i believe it wurth more for your reputation as a tuner to cower the cost for the custumer instead of finding excuses.

[WilliamE92]

[chingy24]

Wow...facts don't lie!!! Well spoken Shiv.

[SteveMD]

Was this originally posted here or somewhere else?

???

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Wow.. Just when you thought it was going to be a quiet Friday

Mike

[vasillalov]

I am getting more and more determined that I will NOT be running a piggy!

[dmurray14]

Originally Posted by vasillalov

I am getting more and more determined that I will NOT be running a piggy!

If anything, this should serve as a reminder to CONSIDER and EVALUATE the functionality and features of each tune before making your decision as to what you buy. Regardless of which one you hear is better, the FACTS are what matters - you should be comfortable with your tune because you are educated on what it provides, not because it was cheapest or popular.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by dmurray14

If anything, this should serve as a reminder to CONSIDER and EVALUATE the functionality and features of each tune before making your decision as to what you buy. Regardless of which one you hear is better, the FACTS are what matters - you should be comfortable with your tune because you are educated on what it provides, not because it was cheapest or popular.

+100

[vasillalov]

Originally Posted by dmurray14

If anything, this should serve as a reminder to CONSIDER and EVALUATE the functionality and features of each tune before making your decision as to what you buy. Regardless of which one you hear is better, the FACTS are what matters - you should be comfortable with your tune because you are educated on what it provides, not because it was cheapest or popular.

True,

But I REALLY do not want to do the trial-and-error method on a $24K engine! Ever seen a thread about a GIAC engine blown up?

[import36]

Originally Posted by dmurray14

If anything, this should serve as a reminder to CONSIDER and EVALUATE the functionality and features of each tune before making your decision as to what you buy. Regardless of which one you hear is better, the FACTS are what matters - you should be comfortable with your tune because you are educated on what it provides, not because it was cheapest or popular.

well said.

[dmurray14]

Originally Posted by vasillalov

True,

But I REALLY do not want to do the trial-and-error method on a $24K engine! Ever seen a thread about a GIAC engine blown up?

No, but that doesn't mean it can't or won't happen. Until one of the tuners comes out with the crystal ball feature, the best defense you have against damage is being well informed and making educated decisions, not following hearsay. Just my 2c.

[forza1976]

Originally Posted by vasillalov

True,

But I REALLY do not want to do the trial-and-error method on a $24K engine! Ever seen a thread about a GIAC engine blown up?

I'm curious how many people are actually running the GIAC tune? Probably haven't heard much because the numbers are relatively low compared to JB and Procede.

[Tiago@VRSF]

GIAC tune is useless when the piggybacks can control so much and revert back to stock so easily.