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      07-01-2010, 10:13 AM   #23
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But tell me this - other than fashion, why have wheels got bigger and bigger and profiles lower and lower on German mid sized saloons mainly made by BMW and Audi?

Other than fashion, there's no sound reason. It's not motorsport, it's not performance - it's a design trend and when will it stop? Some hot hatches now have 19" wheels as standard - they look utterly daft. Very few ultra purist performance cars have massive wheels - think Exige, Cayman, Caterham, Pagani, etc.

I'm hoping the trend will reverse soon otherwise wheels will soon take more space than doors. BMW making 19s look "small" on the F10 is very silly IMO. What will look right? 20s? 22s? Hmm - there'll be a few grand a set and be as easy to get tyres for as a Eurofighter. Useful on a mid range exec car...

BMW can make very nice wheels - the 230s, 162s and E46 M3 CSL rims are all fantastic looking. The fussy/fragile billion spoke wheels don't do it for me or for anyone that cleans them.
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      07-01-2010, 10:22 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by sheps View Post
Yup, they are exactly the wheels I was referring to. I personally think they look fantastic on that car.
I absolutely agree - I love those wheels

Matt; did you copy&paste that from your Evo article I do agree with your sentiment but that fact is it's fashion. Nowt you can do about that I'm afraid. I'm a sucker for it though hence having 19s on an M Sport X3 - completely impractical (could feel it seriously struggling on the beach last week), and I moan like hell about the ride on standard RFTs, but I'd highly likely do it again 'cause I think it looks the business

I suppose the engineers eventually catch up with the design department and improve other aspects to help with comfort (just usually not both at the same time unfortunately).
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      07-01-2010, 10:26 AM   #25
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But tell me this - other than fashion, why have wheels got bigger and bigger and profiles lower and lower on German mid sized saloons mainly made by BMW and Audi?

Other than fashion, there's no sound reason. It's not motorsport, it's not performance - it's a design trend and when will it stop? Some hot hatches now have 19" wheels as standard - they look utterly daft. Very few ultra purist performance cars have massive wheels - think Exige, Cayman, Caterham, Pagani, etc.
Performance definitely involved - factors such as increased car weight, increased hp/torque etc will change the tyre requirements quite drastically - requirements that can probably only be satisfied by increasing rim size. Bigger wheel also allows for bigger brakes, better cooling.

Styling is the other reason - but not just for the sake of fashion - simple fact is, bigger the car gets, the wheel has to get bigger too, otherwise it will look completely our of proportion. It would eventually be physically impossible to fit small wheels because it just won't have enough height to keep the car from rubbing the ground - making up for that height with rubber will not cope with the performance requirements of the car.

I'm in agreement with Sheps concerning 19s on the E60 - I myself stuck with 18s for ride quality sake, but 19s are a must if you ever want the E60 to look right.
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      07-01-2010, 10:37 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 335diesel View Post
But tell me this - other than fashion, why have wheels got bigger and bigger and profiles lower and lower on German mid sized saloons mainly made by BMW and Audi?

Other than fashion, there's no sound reason. It's not motorsport, it's not performance - it's a design trend and when will it stop? Some hot hatches now have 19" wheels as standard - they look utterly daft. Very few ultra purist performance cars have massive wheels - think Exige, Cayman, Caterham, Pagani, etc.

I'm hoping the trend will reverse soon otherwise wheels will soon take more space than doors. BMW making 19s look "small" on the F10 is very silly IMO. What will look right? 20s? 22s? Hmm - there'll be a few grand a set and be as easy to get tyres for as a Eurofighter. Useful on a mid range exec car...

BMW can make very nice wheels - the 230s, 162s and E46 M3 CSL rims are all fantastic looking. The fussy/fragile billion spoke wheels don't do it for me or for anyone that cleans them.
I absolutely agree - it is primarily fashion.

Read any road test on pretty much any car with optional wheel upgrades (and lets use our mighty E9x M3 as a case in point) all road testers say the car will handle better and provides a better ride/handling compromise than with the upgraded 19's.

It often starts with concept models; these are more-often-than-not styled and shown using huge wheel/shallow tyre combo's to look dramatic and powerful and sexy, yet when the design filters through the accounting department, they vito the big wheels, so the showroom models trot out with sofa castors - hence the cars often look underwheeled for their design.

Let's not forget, if all the cars looked great out of the box then manufacturers would also be denied the nice and heavy margin that upgraded wheel and tyre packages represent, which they rely on to bolster (so we're told) very narrow margins on base-car sales.

When I ordered my e92 I specifically ordered the 19" wheel upgrade, over the standard 18's. I did this purely for looks, as I didn't think the 18's filled the arches enough. The ride is stiff, for sure, but was improved when I ditched the runflats and, coming from an Impreza, I don't find the ride anything to moan about.

I do, however, have to fully accept that it does look a lot harder to clean my wheels than the standard fit ones (from where I sit, eating a sandwich and smoking a cigarette whilst the local Kosovans clean it), there's no debating that.
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      07-01-2010, 10:44 AM   #27
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Jesus - so refreshing to see some agreement!

Wierdly in the States, big wheels are often frowned upon. M Sports come with 17s as standard.

Big wheels often DO look good up to a point but I can't get past the fact that massively wide draggy but rubber band thin tyres that break easily and often trash a car's ride, cost a vast amount (and yes - huge profit margins - M Sport kit makes BMW far more margin than the cars themselves for example) and make tyre aquisition a total nightmare.

Sheps - you are so right about design concepts:



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      07-01-2010, 10:48 AM   #28
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Performance definitely involved - factors such as increased car weight, increased hp/torque etc will change the tyre requirements quite drastically - requirements that can probably only be satisfied by increasing rim size. Bigger wheel also allows for bigger brakes, better cooling.

I dispute this - bigger wheels and tyres = increased rotating weight. Heavy cars so not need bigger wheels, just stronger ones. As for brakes - how many that fit bigger optional alloys also fit bigger brakes? I bet very few do. Mine are as small as you can get for the brakes (17s) yet a few years ago, would have been considered very large. Now they are considered too small yet the ride (non RFTs) is fantastic and I have yet to think "ooh, I could have done with more grip then."

Honestly it's almost all about looks and fashion. As are high heels.
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      07-01-2010, 10:55 AM   #29
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[i]

Honestly it's almost all about looks and fashion. As are high heels.
Matt you haven't started wearing high heels?
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      07-01-2010, 10:59 AM   #30
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Started?

Been wearing them for years.

Do you like my latest additions?

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      07-01-2010, 11:04 AM   #31
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very nice Matt they suit you
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      07-01-2010, 01:26 PM   #32
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Quote:
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Yup, they are exactly the wheels I was referring to. I personally think they look fantastic on that car.
I agree - that 19" 'spider' design is great on an E60/61.

I've run my 330d on various wheels and tyres - 17" non-RFTs, 18" RFTs, 19" non-RFT and 19" RFTs.

From 17"s (and from 18"s to a lesser extent), the handling is improved considerably on 19"s, and is best on 19" RFTs. The reverse is true for ride, but there is not that much difference to be honest between 17" non-RFTs and 19" non RFTs. The car rolled and wallowed alot on 17"s - to the extent that it is not nearly as enjoyable to hustle down a twisty road - so in my experience there is more to the issue than just fashion.

My other car is on 16" non-RFTs - but the ride is better in the BMW with 19" non-RFTs.....
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      07-01-2010, 02:00 PM   #33
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i like it!!!.....not the wheels tho....BMW cud do much better looking wheels for the 5...
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      07-01-2010, 02:08 PM   #34
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Try driving it first! The SE has suprisingly soft springs and could not handle the 3 ltr diesel engine.

Jaguar can make a car ride well on 20 inch rims so why can't BMW?
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      07-01-2010, 02:09 PM   #35
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Try driving it first! The SE has suprisingly soft springs and could not handle the 3 ltr diesel engine.

Jaguar can make a car ride well on 20 inch rims so why can't BMW?
Do Jaguar use RFTs?
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      07-01-2010, 02:11 PM   #36
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Do Jaguar use RFTs?
That says it all! Why the F@ck do those numpties in Munich supply them for our shitty UK roads
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      07-01-2010, 02:21 PM   #37
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Why on earth would a car roll and wallow more on 17s than on 19s? The suspension is the same.

Of course people will go out of their way to justify buying sodding expensive 19s over smaller wheels but really, it's about looks.

A couple of quotes from auto engineers:

A larger, heavier tire and wheel assembly will gain more kinetic energy
from each short bump it encounters, which the suspension then tries to absorb without passing on to the passenger cabin.
So smaller tires give a smoother ride.
When tires bounce, a given amount of suspension hardware can put them back in contact with the road quicker if they have low mass.
So smaller tires give better handling.


And

Larger diameter, wider wheels may raise your cred in the McDonald's drive-thru queue, but they'll also blunt your car's turn-in, knock the edge off the handling, spoil the ride and cost you a fortune in new tyres.

You are also raising the CoG of your car - which is never a good thing. Of course if the big wheel is lighter than a smaller wheel, the difference is minimized but very few 19s are lighter than 17s.

You have a heavier wheel, heavier tyre, more drag, slower acceleration (of the radius of the tyre is more - low profiles reduce this but they are still bigger) and higher CoG.

Physics are against larger wheels as are pretty much all forms of motorsport wheels from F1 to rallying.
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      07-01-2010, 02:31 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by 335diesel View Post
Why on earth would a car roll and wallow more on 17s than on 19s? The suspension is the same.

Of course people will go out of their way to justify buying sodding expensive 19s over smaller wheels but really, it's about looks.

A couple of quotes from auto engineers:

A larger, heavier tire and wheel assembly will gain more kinetic energy
from each short bump it encounters, which the suspension then tries to absorb without passing on to the passenger cabin.
So smaller tires give a smoother ride.
When tires bounce, a given amount of suspension hardware can put them back in contact with the road quicker if they have low mass.
So smaller tires give better handling.


And

Larger diameter, wider wheels may raise your cred in the McDonald's drive-thru queue, but they'll also blunt your car's turn-in, knock the edge off the handling, spoil the ride and cost you a fortune in new tyres.

You are also raising the CoG of your car - which is never a good thing. Of course if the big wheel is lighter than a smaller wheel, the difference is minimized but very few 19s are lighter than 17s.

You have a heavier wheel, heavier tyre, more drag, slower acceleration (of the radius of the tyre is more - low profiles reduce this but they are still bigger) and higher CoG.

Physics are against larger wheels as are pretty much all forms of motorsport wheels from F1 to rallying.
The back wheels of an F1 car hardly look small! As wide as a bus.
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      07-01-2010, 02:38 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 335diesel View Post
Why on earth would a car roll and wallow more on 17s than on 19s? The suspension is the same.

Of course people will go out of their way to justify buying sodding expensive 19s over smaller wheels but really, it's about looks.

A couple of quotes from auto engineers:

A larger, heavier tire and wheel assembly will gain more kinetic energy
from each short bump it encounters, which the suspension then tries to absorb without passing on to the passenger cabin.
So smaller tires give a smoother ride.
When tires bounce, a given amount of suspension hardware can put them back in contact with the road quicker if they have low mass.
So smaller tires give better handling.


And

Larger diameter, wider wheels may raise your cred in the McDonald's drive-thru queue, but they'll also blunt your car's turn-in, knock the edge off the handling, spoil the ride and cost you a fortune in new tyres.

You are also raising the CoG of your car - which is never a good thing. Of course if the big wheel is lighter than a smaller wheel, the difference is minimized but very few 19s are lighter than 17s.

You have a heavier wheel, heavier tyre, more drag, slower acceleration (of the radius of the tyre is more - low profiles reduce this but they are still bigger) and higher CoG.

Physics are against larger wheels as are pretty much all forms of motorsport wheels from F1 to rallying.
Do you not like low profile tyres Matt?
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      07-01-2010, 02:46 PM   #40
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Will - I do, up to a point. Lower than 40, I can't see the point. Harder sidewalls, much less progressive on the limit, harsher ride.

I assume you are referring to the line - If (typo!) the radius of the tyre is more - low profiles reduce this but they are still bigger - I mean bigger tyres usually have a lower profile to offset the overall tyre radius but only up to a point - a 19" ultra low profile tyre has a MUCH bigger radius than a 17" lowish profile tyre. And yes, I know the profile is a ratio/percentage of the tyre width.

I'm not trying to be bloody minded here, just trying to open up a debate about tyre sizes - IMO the fact that 19s look small on the F10 is just a sign of a nutty trend to ever bigger and lower profile tyres. Where will it stop?
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      07-01-2010, 02:57 PM   #41
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What if the 19" alloys are lightweight ones?

I agree that mostly straight line driving and comfort, that 17" is perfect. But pressing on, the tyre roll caused by taller sidewalls combined with less tyre surface remaining on the road would result in slower progress (at speed.)
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      07-01-2010, 03:05 PM   #42
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Will - fair enough for a track car but we live in a country with many sh4t roads. I know everyone wants to look like they drive a Touring car or similar but I think a lot of ride comfort is sacrificed.

Find me a truly light (lighter than a standard 17") wheel that won't self destruct when driven on "real" roads. There may be some about but I bet they are comedy money.

The E39 5 series always had very tall tyres and IMO handled and rode really well. Now many are on 19s about 255 (or more) wide with 30 profile tyres and I think they ride like a bag of merde.

My cousin has an A6 2.7TDI S-Line on 19s (about 35 profile and about 265 wide) and the wheels/tyres utterly ruin the car. What should be a comfy and fairly pokey cruiser is actually a teeth removing, headache inducing nightmare of a car. Yes it looks good but as an actual car, it's been wrecked by Audi at huge additional expense to the fairly nice riding standard model.

Again this is opinion sprinkled with some facts - please no one take it as an affront and get all huffy.

19" wheels - 225, 230 and 313 all weigh over 12.6kg each
17" wheels - the "dull" looking 158 (on many bog standard E90s) is well under 10kg. Mine are heavy for 17s but they are nuclear bomb proof and still under 12kg - 3.2kg less rotating weight and tyres that weigh considerably less too.
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      07-01-2010, 03:25 PM   #43
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Matt - It is down to fashion in part but a larger diameter tyre obviously gives you a larger 'foot print' for better handling but at the expense of noise, especially on RFT's.

As Will said 17" tyres the tyre roll is noticeable with a higher sidewall.

Not saying your cousins car isn't like as you describe but mine is fitted with the standard set up of 255/35 ZR 19's and despite hardish suspension it's not a crashy or teeth rattling ride. Would need a passenger to confirm this perhaps lol. Maybe the car is set up for those size of tyres and wheels who knows.

Have to say I stopped at going bigger than 18" wheels on the beemers, mainly due to 19" RFT's and tramlining would have done my head in tbh.

Porsche T has profile of 30 on the rear and 35 on the front but then we're talking some hefty G forces going on aghhh Obviously Porsche do this for the handling. Is it required on far less powerful cars, those lusting after looks and possibly grip may argue so and they're an upgrade option lol.

As for the 5 Series - mini 3 Series isn't it and don't like the rear lights, maybe the white doesn't help. But then when we all get used to seeing them, it'll be 'yeah they're ok'
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      07-01-2010, 03:48 PM   #44
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Beemerbird - agreed. Both the E90 (ahem - Mitsi Carisma anyone?) and E60 had me in near fits of laughter when I first saw them - now I like both.

I like the F10 (mostly) now so maybe my opinion will reverse?!

You still RS5ing? If not, can you please get a new 911 Turbo S? I cannot believe how bonkers quick they are for under 130k!

I suspect the S5 has suspension rather better tuned than a bog standard S-Line A6 for 19? Honestly the ride in his A6 is utterly wrong. I once had a bike with solid tyres - it rode better than his A6.
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