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      05-05-2011, 07:33 PM   #199
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbass524 View Post
Agreed but fastest laps are vital, as well as overall workload, as they help us understand the how hard you are driving. They should be compared to what a great driver does in the same car at the track so we can understand how hard you are pushing it. Seat of the pants and passing a GT3 RS doesn't do it.

I know it's lame and difficult to do but I don't know how else to measure the workload. Suggestions?

Without knowing if you're a similar or better/faster driver it's hard to assess the need for a stage 1 or 2 or if you even need to change your coolant to water. What works for you doesn't necessarily work for me. Many have been lured into a solution that wasn't really a solution for them because of this.

We have AT/MT, which is very important, and ambient temps but true workload isn't measured. Ideas?
I agree with peter that lap times are useless. Unless you are running the course alone, you can't really read anything into it because of varying traffic patterns. I suggest we write our honest skill level. e.g: Novice, Intermediate, advanced. From my track experience people in a group based on skill level tend to run consistent times, each session.
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      05-05-2011, 10:07 PM   #200
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Agreed. The groups are typically well balanced (except novice), more so if there are 2 intermediate levels.

I'm intermediate/solo. My best laps are typically in Spec Miata territory for the tracks I frequent and I'm certain an advanced student can overheat the car in half the laps it takes me to do so.

It seems that both Turkeybaster and I will be at the track within 2 weeks so we'll get 2 more water temp data points for comparison. Our sample set is still too small for conclusions although some patterns are emerging. Keep it up guys, this is good stuff!
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      05-05-2011, 11:28 PM   #201
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Turkeybaster, Lap times are useless? Really? I'm not trying to be an ass but how do you sugest proving that you're stressing the car? You can always find clear laps during a track day.

Your car will be close to maximum temp when you start a clean lap. Our cars heat up so fast 2-3 minutes of clear track in the middle or end of a session is all you need.

I suggest measuring your time against the winning spec Miata times. Of course not all tracks make sense for this but you need something as concrete as possible and Miatas are a good comparison. Use Trackpedia to find them.

For instance:
Track } Me } Spec Miata
Infineon } 1:58.6 } 1:56.3
Laguna } 1:47.6 } 1:46.6
Thunderhill } 2:09.7 } 2:08.2

One other thing is that Cobb, GIAC, Procede, et al give you lower lap times without driving harder but can also heat up the car faster so it could be pertinent to list tunes if they exist. It also will help those with tunes understand what the best solution for them might be.
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      05-06-2011, 02:24 AM   #202
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I will attend a trackday on May 20th and post my findings here. My car has stock OC and the AR Desing OC.

I'll use either the JB4 or Procede V5 and start with a max boost of 12psi. If the car doesn't overheat, I'll switch to 16psi.

IMO it's important to list if the car ran a tune on the track or not. It may be more or less irrelevant WHICH tune it is, but I'd say it's clear that running more boost will directly affect engine temps.
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      05-06-2011, 10:14 AM   #203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterM1 View Post
Did you mean median? Average lap speed can be greatly affected by traffic. In LRP we had 10+ cars stuck behind a GT3 for 3-4 laps until he was blackflagged for ignoring the point-by flags. I'm not sure if everyone is willing to shift through their datalogs to clean the data up, I barely have time to overlay the datalog on top of my videos :-) We typically quote best lap times as that info is readily available by most (all?) datalog solutions.

Let us know what difference you see with the plastic cover off, the more metrics the better!
Yes. I did mean median. The point I was trying to get across with that chart (which has a great start), is that unless you are very familiar with a track, time doesn't mean much. We're from all around the country. (Some tracks even have different configurations which affects the time.) What I would like to see are speeds (e.g. 72mph) and general classification of driver (intermediate, advanced, BMWCCA instructor, pro, etc.), so I don't have to go to the SCCA or NASA sites and figure out what a good time is and what speed that comes out to. I fortunately have never had a limp mode at the track due to heat, and you may believe I don't drive very well/hard, which would be a logical assumption. I drive at HPR, my local track in Denver, at high altitude and high temperatures, so I must really suck as a driver as I should get limp modes all the time. But I believe it's due to the track, it's got a lot of straights that let's the engine cool ~due~ to high speed air. (BTW, my best is 2.5 seconds off the NASA track record in HP/weight. My 2:07.5 vs their 2:05. It's a modded e36 M3. )

Quote:
Originally Posted by UltraRacer13 View Post
Interesting. I ran the stock airbox at the track, thought it would be cooler that the DCI. I have no proof either way, just conjecture.
I am only pointing out what I saw, I have no proof either.
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      05-06-2011, 12:42 PM   #204
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to update- I am intermediate- running cobb
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      05-06-2011, 01:02 PM   #205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterM1 View Post
heater info added

Track Laguna Seca AT 1:49 60-70F AR Oil Cooler 290F Heater off Stock

Comments: Lost power consistently throughout day as oil temps reached 290F and via PROcede boost reduction. AR helped by allowing 1-2 extra hot laps, and helping with cooldown laps, but doesn't do the job.

In regards to comments on lap times being unimportant, I disagree completely. They are VERY important as they help others who have been to the same track gauge how hard you're driving the car.

The comments regarding traffic only applies to novice level. Once you're up the the intermediate-advanced groups, you should be experienced enough to work through traffic and get many clear runs during the day.

So for example, if I see you're running a 1:58 at Laguna Seca, I can tell you're a solid intermediate driver, but may not be pushing your car 10/10ths. So if you have an AR oil cooler like me but didn't overheat, it doesn't convince me that the AR oil cooler is effective (it's not as seen from my own feedback). Likewise, now that I'm shopping for other solutions, I will use the same comparison for the other oil coolers.
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      05-06-2011, 01:30 PM   #206
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all good points. Unfortunately at my local tracks I'm lucky to get 4-5 clean laps per session and as you mentioned the car is at an overheating threshold by that point. My clean laps come after I've separated from the "pack" often midway or later into a session. I'll add a Spec Miata column (off trackpedia data) and a driver level column on the chart for anyone that wants to divulge the info. You guys will have to correct me if I quote the wrong Spec Miata times as tracks often have multiple configurations/layouts.

This chart is starting to getting very interesting!


Quote:
Originally Posted by jbass524 View Post
Turkeybaster, Lap times are useless? Really? I'm not trying to be an ass but how do you sugest proving that you're stressing the car? You can always find clear laps during a track day.

Your car will be close to maximum temp when you start a clean lap. Our cars heat up so fast 2-3 minutes of clear track in the middle or end of a session is all you need.

I suggest measuring your time against the winning spec Miata times. Of course not all tracks make sense for this but you need something as concrete as possible and Miatas are a good comparison. Use Trackpedia to find them.

For instance:
Track } Me } Spec Miata
Infineon } 1:58.6 } 1:56.3
Laguna } 1:47.6 } 1:46.6
Thunderhill } 2:09.7 } 2:08.2

One other thing is that Cobb, GIAC, Procede, et al give you lower lap times without driving harder but can also heat up the car faster so it could be pertinent to list tunes if they exist. It also will help those with tunes understand what the best solution for them might be.
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      05-06-2011, 01:50 PM   #207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orionredwing View Post
So for example, if I see you're running a 1:58 at Laguna Seca, I can tell you're a solid intermediate driver, but may not be pushing your car 10/10ths. So if you have an AR oil cooler like me but didn't overheat, it doesn't convince me that the AR oil cooler is effective (it's not as seen from my own feedback). Likewise, now that I'm shopping for other solutions, I will use the same comparison for the other oil coolers.
If you plan on running 50/50 OEM coolant mixture, then "other" oil coolers won't do shit. If you look at the hard core racers like evolution racewerks, or HP autowerks, you'll notice that they are all running 100% distilled water+ motul mocool.

As for the issue of track times, most of the events I attend forbid timing your runs.
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      05-06-2011, 02:02 PM   #208
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Very nice info here. I'll have to try activating the coolant temp next time I go to the track.

I'll add my data from the March event. Since I just found out about the coolant temp reading, I didn't have it for this event.

Track: SOW (clockwise)
AT/MT: MT
Best Lap: 1:30.7
Ambient Temp: mid-60 to 70░F
Oil Cooler: Stock
Max. Oil Temp: approx. 290░F
Heater: off
Coolant Mix: Stock
Max. Coolant Temp: n/a
Comments: Car is all stock

edit: Just adding my track experience. I don't remember how many track days I've been to. The only thing I can relate to is that I have close to 12 years of track experience.
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Last edited by vwong; 05-06-2011 at 02:19 PM.
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      05-06-2011, 02:04 PM   #209
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GoPro is your friend (or some other video camera to extract lap times and see your lines)

I was puzzled by all these defensive responses whenever I mentioned AR. But I finally saw in your sig that you also have an AR oil cooler, so it makes sense now.

Please post up your track info into the spreadsheet as well. It's another data point for those who are considering using AR.

Because there is some challenge to lap times, I think it'd be helpful to list in the spreadsheet how many track days people have too. While people progress at different rates, it's another helpful data point. You can be vague like (3 yrs) or specific, like 18 track days (that's my experience to date).

As for me, I'm totally with jbass. Lap times are the best gauge on how hard you're driving the car. But of course, a novice can drive a car at 10/10ths and get poor lap times, so that's why I suggested including track experience as well.

Once again, thumbs up on an excellent thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115 View Post
If you plan on running 50/50 OEM coolant mixture, then "other" oil coolers won't do shit. If you look at the hard core racers like evolution racewerks, or HP autowerks, you'll notice that they are all running 100% distilled water+ motul mocool.

As for the issue of track times, most of the events I attend forbid timing your runs.
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      05-07-2011, 10:58 PM   #210
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BTW, for you Auto tranny guys, please be aware:
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...20#post9550720
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      05-08-2011, 12:49 PM   #211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115 View Post
BTW, for you Auto tranny guys, please be aware:
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...20#post9550720
wow, thanks for the info!
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      05-08-2011, 12:52 PM   #212
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updated again



Ultraracer, either you're one ultra fast dude or my reading of Spec Miata times on trackpedia is way off (or both)! Let me know what's the right number and I'll update the chart. Same with vwong

Last edited by mid-corner fun; 05-08-2011 at 01:03 PM.
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      05-08-2011, 02:28 PM   #213
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I'm liking this chart. It's a great source for us. Thanks for doing this Peter. Would Google docs be a could source for this?

I would love to see those with tunes listed with notes, i.e: JB4 Map1, GIAC Stage 1, etc.
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      05-08-2011, 03:12 PM   #214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterM1 View Post
updated again



Ultraracer, either you're one ultra fast dude or my reading of Spec Miata times on trackpedia is way off (or both)! Let me know what's the right number and I'll update the chart. Same with vwong
I suck- trackpedia does not list a spec miata that i saw, but they did list an 03 BMW SMG @ 123.6 (r compounds/ suspension). I am way off competitive pace. I think with better tires I can run upper 120's. After some research, looks like a typical spec miata turns about 127, the record in around 124.
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      05-08-2011, 04:01 PM   #215
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UltraRacer13 View Post
I suck- trackpedia does not list a spec miata that i saw, but they did list an 03 BMW SMG @ 123.6 (r compounds/ suspension). I am way off competitive pace. I think with better tires I can run upper 120's. After some research, looks like a typical spec miata turns about 127, the record in around 124.
lol, I'll probably post twice-slower than Spec Miata times soon, I'm going to a new track (to me) without an instructor next weekend. Line seems relatively easy for that specific configuration so I'm hoping to speed up by end of day 1, try a few things on day 2.

All my numbers are with StarSpecs, R-comps sitting in the garage waiting for the demise of the Dunlops (a few more track days at most)

BTW, I see where this chart is going and to your and jbass' comments, we'll soon need to list tires, brakes, suspension and boost mods... heck eventually someone will ask for driver weight and the answer will be NO!
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      05-08-2011, 04:19 PM   #216
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Ok, throw me on the list. Track: High Plains Raceway (HPR), Trans: MT, Driver: Adv., Best Lap: 2:08 ( = 71.5mph = 114kph), Spec Miata (trackpedia): 2:18, Amb. Temp.: 75F, Oil Cooler: stock, Max Oil Temp: 270, Heater: off, Rad. Fluid: stock. Notes: DCI, no tune, Yokohama Advan AD08s, weight with driver: 3900 lbs. 6/10 tank fuel. (Weight = )
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      05-08-2011, 04:20 PM   #217
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterM1 View Post
BTW, I see where this chart is going and to your and jbass' comments, we'll soon need to list tires, brakes, suspension and boost mods... heck eventually someone will ask for driver weight and the answer will be NO!
+1. Its already too crowded IMHO.
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      05-08-2011, 04:36 PM   #218
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aleckzandr View Post
Ok, weight with driver: 2900 lbs. 6/10 tank fuel. (Weight = )
2900?

800lb weight reduction based on 4/10s missing fuel.... excellent

PS. just noticed you have an XI, 1000lb reduction, even better!
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      05-08-2011, 07:49 PM   #219
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Originally Posted by PeterM1 View Post
2900?

800lb weight reduction based on 4/10s missing fuel.... excellent

PS. just noticed you have an XI, 1000lb reduction, even better!
Typo, sorry. 3900 lbs. I wish it weighed 2900 lbs.
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      05-08-2011, 08:00 PM   #220
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbass524 View Post
I'm liking this chart. It's a great source for us. Thanks for doing this Peter. Would Google docs be a could source for this?
Some sort of shared solution would be great. Do you know how to do this without linking into google accounts? Sorry too much other stuff linked in there.
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