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      09-13-2010, 12:39 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by HP Autowerks View Post
We use the stock oil cooler. With our prototype all aluminum radiator we had neither oil or water temp isssues at either Buttonwillow, Las Vegas or Auto Club Race way. Both ER and Berk's 135i had cooling system temp issues at those tracks.
This is really impressive... Its been quite a while now, is there more detailed info on your radiator yet ?
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      09-13-2010, 01:13 PM   #46
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impressive indeed...so Harold's super-secret radiator keeps water temps down AND offsets the need for an upgraded/2ndoil cooler?
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      09-13-2010, 01:36 PM   #47
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impressive indeed...so Harold's super-secret radiator keeps water temps down AND offsets the need for an upgraded/2ndoil cooler?
So far our testing data is telling us oil temp is kept under control for a manual transmission car under racing conditions. Autos puts more heat into the cooling system and take away some of the cooling needed for the engine, that will still need more testing.

Adding another oil cooler or upgrading your existing one wouldn't hurt and it will further drop your oil temps and prolong oil life.
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      10-12-2010, 09:09 PM   #48
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p.s.: I don't mean to direct any of this at JBass. I applaud anyone using their daily drive on the track to improve their skills. And I applaud his effort to improve the reliability of the car in effort to have more fun while learning. I am just pointing out that the 335i does have some serious inherent problems that will require a lot more time and effort to correct than most BMWs do. That is all.
I read your comments on the 335I auto, and I agree that it is more prone to heat related issues at the track than normally aspirated BMW's, but the difference isn't that great. Last summer, I hit 290 degrees and went into limp mode only after the last lap of the day. My instructor's E46 M3 had similar heat problems. It hit 280+, when he pulled out to cool down his car. I don't have an oil cooler on my auto, and I go into limp mode on full course tracks more often than not, but even if I had known about this before hand, I would still buy this car.
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      10-13-2010, 09:16 AM   #49
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I read your comments on the 335I auto, and I agree that it is more prone to heat related issues at the track than normally aspirated BMW's, but the difference isn't that great. Last summer, I hit 290 degrees and went into limp mode only after the last lap of the day. My instructor's E46 M3 had similar heat problems. It hit 280+, when he pulled out to cool down his car. I don't have an oil cooler on my auto, and I go into limp mode on full course tracks more often than not, but even if I had known about this before hand, I would still buy this car.
Everyone's experience has been mostly different because of different speed and skills, but here's some anecdotal evidence to support my postulation.

First, a little background. I'm an instructor for the Pacific Region BMW CCA. There were 3 other instructors in the region that I know of that drove 335i's at the track. So why do I mention the fact that these guys are instructors? There's a pretty rigorous screening process for the Pacific Region BMW CCA and everyone in the Instructor Corp are mostly very capable, experienced drivers, and most of our skills, speed, and consistency are comparable.

In addition to that, if I'm not mistaken, all three instructors that drives 335i's that I know of has had BMWs of one form or another on the track prior to their 335i going limp, so I take their experience and honest assessment to heart.

S4to335 has had well documented limp mode issues with his 335i sedan. At California Speedway 2.5 years ago, another fellow instructor (not S4to335) had a bone stock 335i go limp 3 times over the course of the weekend. He actually had known about the limp due to heat issues and was pulling data off of the oil temp AND coolant temp, and that's when we found out that 2 out of 3 times it went into limp, it was triggered by water temp, not oil temp. Earlier this year, another fellow instructor took his leased, bone stock 2008 335i sedan to the same California Speedway track on a balmy 80 degrees day. Car went limp due to oil temp within 5 hot laps. The next day, car went limp within 3 hot laps. He had sports package. All three 335i's had sports package and oil cooler. He had driven California Speedway hundreds of laps and in weather significantly hotter than it was earlier this year, and this was the first time that any of his cars driven on the same track has ever left him pulling in early due to mechanical issues. Needless to say he was not happy about the 335i.

Your experience and mileage, as they say, will vary. But what I've found, is that the 335i, without serious and significant cooling work, comes up very short once you get to a consistent "A" level speed at track.
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      10-13-2010, 11:23 AM   #50
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Everyone's experience has been mostly different because of different speed and skills, but here's some anecdotal evidence to support my postulation.
Sir, again, I don't think the 335I's (MT, or AT) overheating issues are any more pronounced than any other car out there with forced induction from the factory. In fact, on hot days, its N/A counterparts are suffering just as much from heat soak. Take the 370Z/G37 for example. These also came out for the '07 year, and despite being naturally aspirated, they both had severe limp mode issues at the track, as reported by owners. Many installed oil coolers to help the problem, even though nissan said it would void their engine warranty. Its really surprising, since many would consider a 370Z to be more of a track car than a 335I. The Nissan cars are also a N/A V6 configuration, so that goes against your theory of the two cylinders of the Inline-6. This summer at road america, I witnessed a GTR being taken down by a N/A lotus elise, in the heat, while mustang cobra's with blowers were at the back of the pack.

The 335I should have been better equipped at the factory to handle the track, but in the end its just a 3 series, and it can't be a dedicated track car, even if it were an N/A motor. Its too well rounded for me to dismiss. It has plenty of low end torque, GREAT highway gas mileage, and near perfect handling (I've got the sport package with 19's) I did a lot of searching before I decided on this car, and although I am disappointed with its performance on full-course race tracks, its not enough for me to get something else. I'll go as far as to say the 335I was not built for full-course race tracks, only 1/2-course race tracks. Which is why I had no problems with the south course at the autobahn, but ran into all sorts of issues on the full course. The only other sedan I was considering was the IS350, but the handling leaves MUCH to be desired compared to the 335I, and the ISF is just priced out of my range. Even that had too much plough, because of its heavy V8 engine.
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      10-13-2010, 01:32 PM   #51
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In my Z4M I never had any issue regarding temps, not even on the hottest day. The new M3 you can punish like hell, no issue. 3.0 NA engine of BMW, no issue at all, E46M3, E36M3 3.0 also no issue. E36 328i no issue.
I have experience with all these cars on the Ring and the 335i is the only one having an issue, and it has it already in 2nd or third lap. So for sure the overheating issues are more pronounced then other BMW cars.
If you start tracking you will not have an issue, put when you really start pushing and become faster and faster you reach the cooling limits fast.

FYI, adding bigger ducts (the one of the 335is for example) really reduce the temps a lot. See my thread for more information.
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      10-13-2010, 01:35 PM   #52
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This is probably one of the reasons why you see very few N54 powered cars at HPDEs (track days).

Not to get off topic, but this is also why I've always questioned the 335ís alleged parity with the E46 M3. While the published specs in many car magazines do suggest that the cars are similar performance-wise, the fact is that they're very different when pushed to the limit. IMO, my 2004 M3 Coupeís power delivery, chassis dynamics, handling, braking, and SUSTAINED PERFORMANCE are superior to my 2007 335i Sedanís. The 335iís N54 engine may be fine getting around the Nordschleife in 8:26, but it will be completely heat-soaked and limping before it completes 15-20 minutes of sustained hot lapping on any track (and even sooner if itís equipped with a Steptronic slushbox and/or chipped). In contrast, the E46 M3ís S54 engine, transmission, and cooling system will keep the car going strong until it needs to pit for fuel. Thatís a HUGE difference between the two cars...
+1 from my own experience. Z4M with S54 no issue what so ever, reving it till 8000 RPM lap after lap on the Ring. 335i (standard w/o tune) Limpmode end of second lap on a hot day (which is after about 17 minutes)
Without changes to the cooling you can forget pushing a 335i on the track.
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      10-13-2010, 02:59 PM   #53
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+1 from my own experience. Z4M with S54 no issue what so ever, reving it till 8000 RPM lap after lap on the Ring. 335i (standard w/o tune) Limpmode end of second lap on a hot day (which is after about 17 minutes)
Without changes to the cooling you can forget pushing a 335i on the track.
I would add cooling ducts to my 335I, but I don't even have an oil cooler, so I don't know if that'll do any good.

FYI, since your in europe, your probably not getting very hot summers, in which to push your Z4's S54. Although germany did have some heat waves this summer, so I wonder if you "pushed it" at the ring on one of those days.
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      10-13-2010, 03:22 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115 View Post
I would add cooling ducts to my 335I, but I don't even have an oil cooler, so I don't know if that'll do any good.

FYI, since your in europe, your probably not getting very hot summers, in which to push your Z4's S54. Although germany did have some heat waves this summer, so I wonder if you "pushed it" at the ring on one of those days.
If there is no cooler, the ducts will not bring you anything. I have the power kit installed, meaning I have a much bigger airflow on the 2nd radiator on the left and on the (VK with Setrab core) oil cooler on the right.

I am comparing performance of cars in similar conditions, also on summer days in 80 degrees. Even with 59 degrees a 335 overheats. Last November I had to take care on the Ring not to overheat even with the Power Kit installed, and it was below 59 degrees outside, with parts of the track damp.
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      10-13-2010, 06:10 PM   #55
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I would add cooling ducts to my 335I, but I don't even have an oil cooler, so I don't know if that'll do any good.

FYI, since your in europe, your probably not getting very hot summers, in which to push your Z4's S54. Although germany did have some heat waves this summer, so I wonder if you "pushed it" at the ring on one of those days.
I have an MZ4 Coupe with S54 and I've pushed it at 115ļ F days in the middle of summer at a grueling track like Buttonwillow (lots of slow speed turns). Oil Temp never went above 260ļ F.
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      10-14-2010, 03:09 PM   #56
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I have an MZ4 Coupe with S54 and I've pushed it at 115ļ F days in the middle of summer at a grueling track like Buttonwillow (lots of slow speed turns). Oil Temp never went above 260ļ F.
And again sir, I have personally witnessed a bone stock E46 M3 pit out with the oil guage at 287 degrees. It didn't go limp, but it got the oil to that temp, and the owner pulled out to save his vehicle. Just because the other the S54 bimmers don't have a limp mode, doesn't mean they don't get dangerously hot.
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      10-14-2010, 03:34 PM   #57
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And again sir, I have personally witnessed a bone stock E46 M3 pit out with the oil guage at 287 degrees. It didn't go limp, but it got the oil to that temp, and the owner pulled out to save his vehicle. Just because the other the S54 bimmers don't have a limp mode, doesn't mean they don't get dangerously hot.
I'm not going to belabor the point. But the MZ4 Coupe does seem to be far better at managing heat than the E46 M3. Another instructor friend of mine has an E46 M3 produced ~4 month prior to my MZ4 Coupe (his M3 was a March 2006 build, mine was a September 2006 build), and on a typical weekend his car usually run about 10-15 degrees higher than mine.

Having said all that. I've seen enough 335i to go limp at the first sight of being driven moderately hard by an instructor to be able to tell you that the N54 engined cars (and to that extent, N52 engined cars as well) are far more vulnerable to heat related issues on the track. Whether you believe it or not, it is up to you. Anecdotal and some empirical data suggest so.
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      10-14-2010, 03:36 PM   #58
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I'm not going to belabor the point. But the MZ4 Coupe does seem to be far better at managing heat than the E46 M3. Another instructor friend of mine has an E46 M3 produced ~4 month prior to my MZ4 Coupe (his M3 was a March 2006 build, mine was a September 2006 build), and on a typical weekend his car usually run about 10-15 degrees higher than mine.

Having said all that. I've seen enough 335i to go limp at the first sight of being driven moderately hard by an instructor to be able to tell you that the N54 engined cars (and to that extent, N52 engined cars as well) are far more vulnerable to heat related issues on the track. Whether you believe it or not, it is up to you. Anecdotal and some empirical data suggest so.
+1
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      10-14-2010, 04:23 PM   #59
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I'm not going to belabor the point. But the MZ4 Coupe does seem to be far better at managing heat than the E46 M3. Another instructor friend of mine has an E46 M3 produced ~4 month prior to my MZ4 Coupe (his M3 was a March 2006 build, mine was a September 2006 build), and on a typical weekend his car usually run about 10-15 degrees higher than mine.
Thanks for admitting it.

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Having said all that. I've seen enough 335i to go limp at the first sight of being driven moderately hard by an instructor to be able to tell you that the N54 engined cars (and to that extent, N52 engined cars as well) are far more vulnerable to heat related issues on the track. Whether you believe it or not, it is up to you. Anecdotal and some empirical data suggest so.
Again, all F/I cars suffer in the same way at the track. (Again, have you seen a GTR at the track on a 90 degree day?) Just because you can do one more lap in an E46 M3, Nissan 370Z, or Infiniti G37, doesn't really mean much, at the end of the day.

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      12-14-2010, 11:11 PM   #60
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Well guys, I don't mean to resurrect a mummy post, but its been 2 months since I posted last, and.....voila!





Hopefully, a much improved temperature operation at the track next summer

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      12-15-2010, 11:08 PM   #61
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very nice, congrats.... I joined the Stett groupbuy, hoping for much cooler temps next year as well.
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      12-16-2010, 10:01 AM   #62
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very nice, congrats.... I joined the Stett groupbuy, hoping for much cooler temps next year as well.
SweeeT! glad you hung in there with this car. Did you get the one with the lower temp thermostat? Thats what would help you with temps on those hot summer days that you run in.
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      12-16-2010, 12:48 PM   #63
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mm this next year will be exciting. We have many different solutions out there and its nice to see everyone trying different ones. hopefully we can collect some good data results to pin down a solution that works
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      12-16-2010, 01:47 PM   #64
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mm this next year will be exciting. We have many different solutions out there and its nice to see everyone trying different ones. hopefully we can collect some good data results to pin down a solution that works
Amen.

A caveat is that we all drive in very different ways and in very different places. The MT/AT issue also effects the heat built up.

Take all data and suggestions you read and receive as a starting point. No matter what anybody says, including "Experts", they are only starting points so don't be afraid or feel silly asking very probing questions.

The best way to assess the suitability of a solution is to install and test for yourself but since that's not practical for most try to find someone who is having success with a solution and drives at similar speeds, terrain, ambient temp and track times. Consider AT and MT also.

I will also be installing a performance radiator when one is ready. We can't underestimate the positive effect this will have on the overall cooling...that is, if you need that much cooling.

I can't tell you how many times I have heard how great something is then I see the person who said so driving at the track (where it matters for me) and all of a sudden I get why it works for them and wouldn't or me.

For instance: I used stock brakes and pads for over 2 years at the track, although I probably could have gone faster with a BBK it didn't stop me from doing reasonable times with them and faster than most with 335s and BBKs or upgraded pads and fluids. It was just the way I used the brakes. Can't say what I did, it just worked for me...until now

Last edited by jbass524; 12-16-2010 at 02:00 PM.
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      12-16-2010, 04:09 PM   #65
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I will also be installing a performance radiator when one is ready. We can't underestimate the positive effect this will have on the overall cooling...that is, if you need that much cooling.
It might be cheaper for you to get the bmw performance radiator: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...1273&highlight, than any of the other aftermarket ones. One thing that also helps somewhat is driving on the track, with the heater on.
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      12-16-2010, 04:22 PM   #66
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It might be cheaper for you to get the bmw performance radiator: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...1273&highlight, than any of the other aftermarket ones. One thing that also helps somewhat is driving on the track, with the heater on.
Thanks. 335is are already overheating and I may want that space in the driver's side fender for an additional oil cooler while having the increased radiator capacity.

This is just from my experience. I'm sure this could work some but I don't feel it would for me. Plus it's so tiny I think the radiators coming out have more capacity than the main radiator and this combined. I would also need to get a new bumper.
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