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      04-18-2011, 09:25 PM   #111
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Holy Batman, it worked!!!

I finished 4 x 25min sessions today at 60F ambient with ZERO limp modes and oil temps did not move past 250F!!! That's with the stage2 STETT oil cooler and 2 bottles of Mocool in the radiator. Didn't even bother turning the heat on. Heck, in session 3 I ran several laps in 3rd gear trying to get the car to overheat, didn't happen. In comparison, a few weeks ago I got a limp mode at 46F ambient within 4 laps, boost levels same for both events.

On the way to the track oil temps stayed at 1 tick (190F) past the thermostat level for the entire 2.5-hour drive . On the way back I think I saw 220F while stuck in traffic.

The real test of course will be later this summer at 80-90F ambient but this is a very promising start! I had a blast today, no limp modes and the chance to drive a track where you can go airborne on every lap
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      04-19-2011, 02:33 PM   #112
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On the way to the track oil temps stayed at 1 tick (190F) past the thermostat level for the entire 2.5-hour drive.
Congrats!! I'm glad it worked for you! However the 190F is the only part that worries me. Its way lower than the 230F OEM thermostat.
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      04-19-2011, 06:46 PM   #113
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Congrats!! I'm glad it worked for you! However the 190F is the only part that worries me. Its way lower than the 230F OEM thermostat.
thanks. I'm not sure whether this is a problem or not, any comments on possible disadvantages of a daily 190F oil temp?

The ticking noise when the thermostat opens the flow at 180F bothers me though, I'm reaching out to STETT to see if I got a defective thermostat.
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      04-19-2011, 08:20 PM   #114
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Congrats Peter.

I have the Race OC setup from Evolution. Normal thermostat and running regular coolant. I've been able to run pretty cool, 268 at 60 deg. ambient. This is doing a 1:47 at Laguna Seca (not bad but not great). I have an auto which is never good for temps and did get a limp at Sears Point due to coolant temps. I will try the Mocool. Maybe I can get below 260. Is that distilled water and Mocool?

This is probably common knowledge but european 335s open up at 195 approx. They also run richer and therefore can cruise on the Autobahn at 130. I would still like to see that.

For the Stett guys, someone needs to chime in about the lower operating temp with the leaner mixture and ramifications.
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      04-21-2011, 02:07 AM   #115
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Peter- great news- thanks for posting! I also have stett stg 2, though I didn't get the thermostat (live in dallas, figured it isn't cold enough) I am headed to the track next week. I will add the mocool as well. Ambiants here lately have ranged from 60-94 so no telling what we will get on track day.

FYI my car runs about 220-230 now around town. If I get racy I can get it to 240 with amb's in the 70-80's. Before I was generally around 260.
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      04-22-2011, 01:28 PM   #116
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I just got back from Laguna this past Tues 4/19 and dialed in a 1:49 (auto). Unfortunately, my oil temps were still hitting 285-290F in 60-70F ambient. I didn't actually go into limp, but once my temps got up there (especially after the straight), I'd lose all boost (wastegates stay open?) until I cooled down for a few turns or ran a cool-down lap.

The AR Oil Cooler did help a 'little' in that a cool-down lap running a 2:00 pace did drop temps down by 10C, allowing 1 hot lap after. I was also able to run a few extra hot laps at the start of a session before hitting 285F (around 5 laps at a 1:50 pace). Still, it looks like I have to dump my AR Oil Cooler and switch to Stett Stg 2 or Evo Raceworks Competition. All you guys seem to be running cool w/ it.

Harold also recommended upgrading the radiator, but I like that your oil coolers are doing the job for you. Sucks that it's money wasted on AR, but I guess someone had to be the guinea pig

This thread is great. Lots of good info on performance of upgraded oil coolers on track being shared FINALLY.
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      04-22-2011, 01:43 PM   #117
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The problem with the automatic is that the coolant is doing double duty (cooling engine AND automatic transmission fluid), and since the coolant AND oil are both used to cool the turbos, if coolant temp goes up, so does oil temp.

So Harold is spot on. You need to upgrade your radiator too to increase the capacity for the overall system to shed heat.
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      04-22-2011, 01:44 PM   #118
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Nice! next time I need you to show me your lines. Anyhow, my temps were rock solid and never passed 258F (6MT). Being my first time at Laguna i took it pretty easy. New track and walls make me nervous haha. I think i was doing about 1:52~ dependant on traffic of course... my group had a wide variety of cars of different speeds.

However I love not having to worry about oil temps and getting consistant times now . Definately helps me focus on improving my lines and throttle application. I did notice that my highest temps are actually not on the straights as that's probably where we get the greatest flow into our cars.

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Originally Posted by orionredwing View Post
I just got back from Laguna this past Tues 4/19 and dialed in a 1:49 (auto). Unfortunately, my oil temps were still hitting 285-290F in 60-70F ambient. I didn't actually go into limp, but once my temps got up there (especially after the straight), I'd lose all boost (wastegates stay open?) until I cooled down for a few turns or ran a cool-down lap.

The AR Oil Cooler did help a 'little' in that a cool-down lap running a 2:00 pace did drop temps down by 10C, allowing 1 hot lap after. I was also able to run a few extra hot laps at the start of a session before hitting 285F (around 5 laps at a 1:50 pace). Still, it looks like I have to dump my AR Oil Cooler and switch to Stett Stg 2 or Evo Raceworks Competition. All you guys seem to be running cool w/ it.

Harold also recommended upgrading the radiator, but I like that your oil coolers are doing the job for you. Sucks that it's money wasted on AR, but I guess someone had to be the guinea pig

This thread is great. Lots of good info on performance of upgraded oil coolers on track being shared FINALLY.
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      04-22-2011, 01:53 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by orionredwing View Post
I just got back from Laguna this past Tues 4/19 and dialed in a 1:49 (auto). Unfortunately, my oil temps were still hitting 285-290F in 60-70F ambient. I didn't actually go into limp, but once my temps got up there (especially after the straight), I'd lose all boost (wastegates stay open?) until I cooled down for a few turns or ran a cool-down lap.

The AR Oil Cooler did help a 'little' in that a cool-down lap running a 2:00 pace did drop temps down by 10C, allowing 1 hot lap after. I was also able to run a few extra hot laps at the start of a session before hitting 285F (around 5 laps at a 1:50 pace). Still, it looks like I have to dump my AR Oil Cooler and switch to Stett Stg 2 or Evo Raceworks Competition. All you guys seem to be running cool w/ it.

Harold also recommended upgrading the radiator, but I like that your oil coolers are doing the job for you. Sucks that it's money wasted on AR, but I guess someone had to be the guinea pig

This thread is great. Lots of good info on performance of upgraded oil coolers on track being shared FINALLY.

Sorry I had to miss it.

1:49 is great. You're still experiencing appreciable power loss with those temps. If you're on stock power you should be really happy with that time given you're running well below the published power #s.

You would still be hitting 270 in an auto with Evolution Competition cooler setup like I have. Radiator is the key. You could place a low but wide tranny cooler on top of your intercooler. Unfortunately you'd be a guinea pig again.
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      04-22-2011, 01:56 PM   #120
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Sorry I had to miss it.

1:49 is great. You're still experiencing appreciable power loss with those temps. If you're on stock power you should be really happy with that time given you're running well below the published power #s.

You would still be hitting 270 in an auto with Evolution Competition cooler setup like I have. Radiator is the key. You could place a low but wide tranny cooler on top of your intercooler. Unfortunately you'd be a guinea pig again.
do you think running meth/water will have more than a negligable effect on overall temps? (given the same boost targets)
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      04-22-2011, 02:06 PM   #121
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Those who know can chime in but I don't think it bring temps way down but is more focused on intake temps.

I would get the tranny cooler (or radiator) before meth as it's foundational to your car. The stock is tiny and for a couple of hundred dollars you can install a 4-6 times larger unit without impeding on the air flow to the radiator (place 20" core on top of intercooler). Or have a pro do it for around $500.
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      04-22-2011, 02:24 PM   #122
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I just got back from Laguna this past Tues 4/19 and dialed in a 1:49 (auto). Unfortunately, my oil temps were still hitting 285-290F in 60-70F ambient. I didn't actually go into limp, but once my temps got up there (especially after the straight), I'd lose all boost (wastegates stay open?) until I cooled down for a few turns or ran a cool-down lap.

The AR Oil Cooler did help a 'little' in that a cool-down lap running a 2:00 pace did drop temps down by 10C, allowing 1 hot lap after. I was also able to run a few extra hot laps at the start of a session before hitting 285F (around 5 laps at a 1:50 pace). Still, it looks like I have to dump my AR Oil Cooler and switch to Stett Stg 2 or Evo Raceworks Competition. All you guys seem to be running cool w/ it.

Harold also recommended upgrading the radiator, but I like that your oil coolers are doing the job for you. Sucks that it's money wasted on AR, but I guess someone had to be the guinea pig

This thread is great. Lots of good info on performance of upgraded oil coolers on track being shared FINALLY.
Dude, good luck with your EVO, or STETT oil cooler. I just installed the AR design oil cooler a few months ago. Previously I didn't have an oil cooler. I LOVE my ar design oil cooler, and will test it out in a few days, at my first HPDE of the year. As a fellow auto owner, I think you might be focusing way too much on oil temps. Per some data gathered by the supercharged E46 guys, your ZF trans fluid is at 266F, while your racing, and your car beings to go into pre-limp mode at a water temp of 235F. If you choose not to address those two things, at least save some money for a new transmission, and buy the cheaper of the two oil coolers(EVO/STETT) I am looking into installing a transmission oil cooler right now, as I would like to avoid water induced limp modes, and prolong my $8,000 transmission's life.
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      04-22-2011, 03:40 PM   #123
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Everyone makes great points. For those who have it, any feedback on the upgraded radiator?

After my discussion w/ Harold this past Tues, an upgraded radiator is most likely the path I'm gonna take. This way I don't have to throw away my investment on the AR oil cooler entirely. Only concern is that the location of the AR Oil cooler blocks air flow to the radiator, so efficiency will be reduced.

Reason I haven't ordered it yet is because it's not a drop-in fit. I mentioned to Harold that I'd be more comfortable if I drove down to Santa Barbara and had him install it for me. Since my next trip down isn't till summer, I was considering swapping out AR for Stett or EVO in the near term.

But in retrospect, financially, it makes sense to wait and do the radiator first. Who knows, that....along w/ the AR Oil cooler might just be enough.

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The problem with the automatic is that the coolant is doing double duty (cooling engine AND automatic transmission fluid), and since the coolant AND oil are both used to cool the turbos, if coolant temp goes up, so does oil temp.

So Harold is spot on. You need to upgrade your radiator too to increase the capacity for the overall system to shed heat.
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Radiator is the key. You could place a low but wide tranny cooler on top of your intercooler. Unfortunately you'd be a guinea pig again.
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Per some data gathered by the supercharged E46 guys, your ZF trans fluid is at 266F, while your racing, and your car beings to go into pre-limp mode at a water temp of 235F.

Thanks, and hope to catch you next time. Yes, you're right. Despite dialing a bit more boost this time (13psi), in reality, at those oil temps, PROcede was limiting my boost to stock. My 1:49 was squeezed from stock 10.5-11psi boost (so I was still getting published, heat soaked power #s, hehe). btw, you're being modest w/ your 1:47 All NON-PRO drivers here are running their 335i in the 1:51-1:54 range, so you're the fastest time I've seen amongst us regular peeps. Stock power still?

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Sorry I had to miss it.

1:49 is great. You're still experiencing appreciable power loss with those temps. If you're on stock power you should be really happy with that time given you're running well below the published power #s.
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      04-22-2011, 04:24 PM   #124
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Hey Orion.... I am on stock power. I was thinking a 1:46 wasn't beyond my abilities this last time but my car broke right before the event.

I have to say that the AR for ATs is just not the solution. I think the world of Andrew at AR. He's good man. But it is just too much blockage for an AT car that relies heavily on the coolant system.

I spoke to Harold about the radiator and it seems good but you need all available airflow to it. I think he's making an AT-specific version also.
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      04-22-2011, 04:50 PM   #125
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Has anyone tried this?



http://www.bmracing.com/PRODUCTS/Hi-...Cooling-System

Cooler(s) with fans attached. This way you can mount the cooler just about anywhere (the other wheel well, anyone?) without having to block radiator airflow. Fan kicks in at 175F means anywhere you have access to ambient air. Might be a good solution to keep the automatic transmission cool enough not to affect coolant and engine oil temps.
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      04-22-2011, 08:48 PM   #126
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I spoke to Harold about the radiator and it seems good but you need all available airflow to it. I think he's making an AT-specific version also.
before you drop a grand on the upgraded radiator, you might want to look into the factory performance package's upgraded radiator. I don't think anyone has installed it yet, but total cost was looking less than $1000, and you don't have to loose your stock radiator.

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...1273&highlight

You can get these parts cheap from thischerBMW. www.getbmwparts.com
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      04-22-2011, 09:50 PM   #127
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But you and I have both fender wells full of oil cooler. I think you do.

It's a tiny little bug and it doesn't concentrate on the tranny. I wish Harold would chime in about whether or not he has a radiator that is AT specific with a portion of the cooling taking over what the stock tranny cooler does. I believe AR was or is building one like this, although I notice they took it off of their site recently.

I'm very interested in the 20 x 3 tranny cooler on top of the intercooler. You augment the stock radiator's cooling of the tranny while staying out of its way.

Makes me think about something Hack said "forget about an AT as a track car". I have to agree. With that, I never would have discovered the track without my 335 AT.
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      04-22-2011, 11:23 PM   #128
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But you and I have both fender wells full of oil cooler. I think you do.

It's a tiny little bug and it doesn't concentrate on the tranny. I wish Harold would chime in about whether or not he has a radiator that is AT specific with a portion of the cooling taking over what the stock tranny cooler does. I believe AR was or is building one like this, although I notice they took it off of their site recently.

I'm very interested in the 20 x 3 tranny cooler on top of the intercooler. You augment the stock radiator's cooling of the tranny while staying out of its way.

Makes me think about something Hack said "forget about an AT as a track car". I have to agree. With that, I never would have discovered the track without my 335 AT.
The Hack was just being negative, early on in the thread. I was suggesting the OEM radiator, as that adds a decent 0.5L to the stock one, which is cheaper than the AR one which is I think 1 Liter more. I'm trying right now to go the trans cooler route. I have both fender wells free. I retrofitted an ar oil cooler, so its my sits in my front grill. There isn't much room left in front of my radiator, but this cute trans cooler will fit, and is catching my attention right now:
http://www.hrpworld.com/index.cfm?fo...action=product
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      04-23-2011, 02:35 PM   #129
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I like the fact that this tranny cooler and the one The Hack tossed up is a lot cheaper than an upgraded radiator. If you figure it out and come up w/ a kit, we'll all be thankin ya big time!

As for focusing on oil temps, you made an earlier comment that I focused too much on it and that should also pay attention to water temps and tranny cooling. With the direction of our recent discussion, we're all in agreement.

But I have to take a step back and say that the AR Oil Cooler just doesn't cut the job. I think jbass had it at one point too and can agree. Even if I'm focusing too much on it, the fact that my oil temps still hit 290F is not acceptable for track duty. So just a word of caution that you shouldn't be too optimistic about your AR Oil cooler, especially when it sits right in the front grill, blocking part of the radiator, and reducing it's cooling efficiency.

As mentioned before, I'm gonna stick w/ it now and look into upgraded tranny cooler and radiator instead and see where that takes me, but I'm not too optimistic about AR for the long term.

Oh, I heard somewhere that an upgraded radiator also helps w/ keeping oil temps down (I do mean oil temps, not tranny). I have no idea how these 2 separate cooling systems can help each other. Can someone explain?

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The Hack was just being negative, early on in the thread. I was suggesting the OEM radiator, as that adds a decent 0.5L to the stock one, which is cheaper than the AR one which is I think 1 Liter more. I'm trying right now to go the trans cooler route. I have both fender wells free. I retrofitted an ar oil cooler, so its my sits in my front grill. There isn't much room left in front of my radiator, but this cute trans cooler will fit, and is catching my attention right now:
http://www.hrpworld.com/index.cfm?fo...action=product
Haha, I'm w/ you there jbass. If I listened to that, I'd never have discovered track either, so there's no regrets. But after all these years, I think we're all progressing to the point, skill wise, where we understand the comment

Just a plug to all the guys who just started tracking their car....don't get scared off! The stock car will be a lot more car than you can handle for a very long time, and you won't reach anywhere near the limits we're talking about.

Made that plug cuz I realized if I was new to track and read this thread, I'd be scared off, lol.

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Makes me think about something Hack said "forget about an AT as a track car". I have to agree. With that, I never would have discovered the track without my 335 AT.
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      04-23-2011, 04:43 PM   #130
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But I have to take a step back and say that the AR Oil Cooler just doesn't cut the job. I think jbass had it at one point too and can agree. Even if I'm focusing too much on it, the fact that my oil temps still hit 290F is not acceptable for track duty. So just a word of caution that you shouldn't be too optimistic about your AR Oil cooler, especially when it sits right in the front grill, blocking part of the radiator, and reducing it's cooling efficiency.
Keep in mind that I am still 100% stock, cept for Koni yellows, and zimmerman cross drilled rotors! I haven't been able to get my temps to rise, with continuous acceleration runs on the street, but I know the track is a different story. If I had a tune on my car, then I'm positive the AR won't do crap. I know it sits in front of the grill, blocking the radiator, but the other kits have their issues too. The EVO is huge, and can cause oil pressure issues. Your also buying 8 liters of oil, because of its capacity. It also blocks air flow to both brakes, unlike the OEM, Dinan, VK motorwerks or even STETT, which also sit in the wheel well. The Dinan is Stupid expensive, The VK motorwerks needs a setreb core (too many broken cores for my taste+they are out of buisness), and STETT wants to open flow through the lines at 180 degrees, or flows right away if you don't get the 180 degree thermostat! Moisture could then get into your engine, which won't be hot enough to boil off the condensate.

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Oh, I heard somewhere that an upgraded radiator also helps w/ keeping oil temps down (I do mean oil temps, not tranny). I have no idea how these 2 separate cooling systems can help each other. Can someone explain?
Your radiator is the first line of defense your car has against oil/car temps. The water flows around the engine block, picks up heat from the OEM trans cooler (If your an auto), then returns to the radiator, where it gets fanned down. In a Naturally aspirated car, this is all you'd need to keep the cars temps down (Oil, block, and trans). In High HP, NA cars, or Forced Induction cars like ours The small radiator is over whelmed. In FI cars like ours, the oil is used to cool the turbo's, which are spitting out 400 Degree gases headed to the intercooler.

Just a few questions to you.

1. Have you ever had a full cooling system flush? Where you drain the entire system, then run water+a radiator cleaner?-This will remove all the deposits in your system which is by now blocking flow, and creating hot spots

2. What type of engine oil are you using?

3. Have you ever flushed out your transmission fluid?
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      04-23-2011, 05:00 PM   #131
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Yes of course. Those of us who track our cars regularly are (or should be) on an aggressive maintenance schedule.

1) For oil change, I use BMW Synthetic. I posted an UOA beginning of this year.
2) LSD - Differential oil I use Redline 75W90NS (no friction additives for Wavetrac). A few of my friends are into drifting, and they mentioned Redline burns off, but so far, at 15K change intervals, mine has come out clean. Track use, while aggressive, is still not as aggressive as drifting. They all prefer Motul, but Motul doesn't have one w/o friction additives.
3) Coolant - 50/50 OEM coolant, although I'm thinking of going to a higher water to coolant ratio. But no radiator cleaner. My mechanic just flushes the system. I'll inquire about that at my next flush.
4) Tranny - don't believe the factory lifetime fill, especially if you track your car! I replaced w/ the same OEM. I was concerned when it came out so dark, but according to the threads, it seems normal. What are you guys filling with?
5) Brake fluid - Motul RBF600

Hmm, did I cover everything?

P.S. I've had no temp issues with aggressive street driving either. This is with the factory oil cooler in 100F CA weather. Sure, oil temps still go up, but if it gets to the point where it's a problem, then you're in the realm of reckless driving imo. Stay safe!

P.P.S. Up until this last track day, I've been running 11psi max (PROcede at 10%), so not really running tuned on track either. Sorry, stock cars still overheat if driven anywhere near the limit But if this is the first few times you're tracking your car, you'll be fine w/ the AR Oil cooler. Chances are you won't be driving near the limit. In fact, I was instructing a first time student (a friend) this past Tues in my car, and temps didn't go past 255F. Post a review after your next HPDE!

Last edited by orionredwing; 04-23-2011 at 05:17 PM.
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      04-23-2011, 06:49 PM   #132
UltraRacer13
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I am thinking about running my cobb stg 1 93 oct tune at the track. I do have the stett OC- what do you guys think? Of course I can flash to stock if it gets too hot- or vice versa, and start base. But I am so used to the tune, I would like to try it. Again- what do you all think? I will be using the stock airbox.
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