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      09-20-2010, 01:24 AM   #23
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It's the right decision, but it still sucks.
Do you think it would have been better at Willow Springs, which is where this event is usually at?
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Let me get this straight... You are swapping out parts designed by some of the top engineers in the world because some guys sponsored by a company told you it's "better??" But when you ask the same guy about tracking, "oh no, I have a kid now" or "I just detailed my car." or "i just got new tires."
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      09-20-2010, 12:40 PM   #24
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It's the right decision, but it still sucks.
Do you think it would have been better at Willow Springs, which is where this event is usually at?
Don't know. Last year WSIR also lost money (traditionally WSIR either broke even or made a small profit). I don't know if enough club racers will show up to make the event financially viable this year had we had it at WSIR again.

There are movements in the chapter board to create a special committee specifically to deal with the dwindling attendance and find creative ways to solve the issues with competition. Hopefully there will be enough fixes in place for next year to make sure this DOES NOT HAPPEN EVER AGAIN. Fortunately (or unfortunately) I've been appointed to the committee, if y'all have any feedback on how to BETTER attract students and improve the overall event, I'm all ears (and so is the committee).
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      09-20-2010, 09:54 PM   #25
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Move away from instructor must ride in every group. Make it mandatory for beginners and require a "check out ride" for those that move to a higher group. This may or may not save on costs associated with instructors, but will certainly attract more people with experience that want to get on the track.
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      09-20-2010, 10:25 PM   #26
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Move away from instructor must ride in every group. Make it mandatory for beginners and require a "check out ride" for those that move to a higher group. This may or may not save on costs associated with instructors, but will certainly attract more people with experience that want to get on the track.
I agree completely. I learn better when I can have some solo time in the car to integrate what the instructor has told me. When I have to ask for solo time some instructors seem put off by it.

There are also times when I just want to drive in the relative safety and comraderie of fellow BMW owners. I don't mind paying a premium for this. Other organizations can be like a demolition derby.

So instructors should be available but optional for experienced drivers.
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      09-21-2010, 12:47 AM   #27
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A+ program is like that. We only provide instructors for classroom, and require a check-ride in the morning. National mandate that we provide in-car instructor for each and every student.
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      09-21-2010, 01:53 AM   #28
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A+ program is like that. We only provide instructors for classroom, and require a check-ride in the morning. National mandate that we provide in-car instructor for each and every student.
How long does it take to get to A+? I don't want to make assumptions, but from what I can tell and experienced, students aren't provided with specific goals/guidance on reaching the next level. There is a report card at the end of the day but there is no "Group recommendation for next event" listed. Why is this information kept from the drivers? Is it possible to jump from D/C to A+ within one event? How much consideration is given to other events that driver has attended within a recent time frame? Contrary to popular belief, one can find "world class instructors" within other organizations.

Check out rides should be available to any driver who has completed at least one day of a CCA event. Perhaps you can discuss this idea with the committee. This will help bring in those that track more than once or twice a year - the people that spend more money on track days than carbon fiber vinyl wraps.

For the record I strongly recommend CCA events for NEW track drivers.
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      09-21-2010, 12:04 PM   #29
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How long does it take to get to A+? I don't want to make assumptions, but from what I can tell and experienced, students aren't provided with specific goals/guidance on reaching the next level. There is a report card at the end of the day but there is no "Group recommendation for next event" listed. Why is this information kept from the drivers? Is it possible to jump from D/C to A+ within one event? How much consideration is given to other events that driver has attended within a recent time frame? Contrary to popular belief, one can find "world class instructors" within other organizations.

Check out rides should be available to any driver who has completed at least one day of a CCA event. Perhaps you can discuss this idea with the committee. This will help bring in those that track more than once or twice a year - the people that spend more money on track days than carbon fiber vinyl wraps.

For the record I strongly recommend CCA events for NEW track drivers.
It's hard to say, and everyone differs in their rate of learning. Next time when you're out at a BMW CCA event, ask for an instructor to take you out in the A+ group to get a sense of the speed and consistency required to drive within that class.

Recommendations for the next run group is provided to event organizers but not students for various reasons, one of which I can think of, is the nightmare it would create in terms of EXPECTATIONS. We've had more than a few cases where a student's expectations of their driving skills does not jive with an instructor's assessment of their actual speed and it creates quite the scene. The report card usually gives you a pretty good assessment of where you need to be, if you have excellent mark in every category then you're ready for A+.

Regarding other events, the problem with our system is that we only have access to what we know, so if you've done a hundred days with various other groups, but are placed in CCA for the first time, there's no prior record for us to go by. BUT. If you've attended hundred of days with excellent skills and experience, you probably won't spend more than a day in the group you're assigned in.

There are always exceptions to the rules, and quite often times people are placed in a run group LOWER than what they think they should run in, or what their skill should place them in. I remember when I was going through the schools, for about half a dozen events I was placed in B in a low power car (323Ci) and was consistently faster than just about everyone else with higher HP cars. It was frustrating, but when I finally got into A it was daunting because all of a sudden everyone was faster than I was, and not just the M3s and Porsches, it was the E30 325i's and 2002s and Miatas that was passing me like I was standing still. Took a few more classes in B to iron out all the little issues before I moved up again.

Just to give you a taste, what the A+ program teaches are no longer the basics of driving, like apexes, chassis dynamics, looking ahead...etc. It is assumed that you can already drive near the limit. The A+ program teaches you situation awareness, ability to analyze different lines and the ability to optimize your speed through not so optimal lines...etc. It also prepares you for the "mental" aspect of driving, not the mechanical aspect of driving. It's closer to "coaching" rather than "teaching" IMO. These are the type of curriculum that you can not get unless you're paying $2,000+ for private coaching, it's the "race craft" aspect of learning to drive and you can't really learn it doing DEs.
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      09-22-2010, 05:19 PM   #30
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Any way to get convertibles on the track for the D's?
I have a few friends who say they're interested, but have converitbles. I know it's a CCA insurance thing, but it would probably get a few more people out there and they can't be going too fast as a newb.
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Let me get this straight... You are swapping out parts designed by some of the top engineers in the world because some guys sponsored by a company told you it's "better??" But when you ask the same guy about tracking, "oh no, I have a kid now" or "I just detailed my car." or "i just got new tires."
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      09-22-2010, 06:19 PM   #31
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Any way to get convertibles on the track for the D's?
I have a few friends who say they're interested, but have converitbles. I know it's a CCA insurance thing, but it would probably get a few more people out there and they can't be going too fast as a newb.
Yeah, we've pushed quite hard on that part, both the chapter and the driving event coordinators. I believe at the last two National Driving Event Committee meeting the possibilities of having hard-top convertibles or even convertible with heavy duty factory roll protection like the Z4 at our events were discussed. Unfortunately, the answer was, and still is, "if it passes our rules then they can come. Except our rules are impossible to pass." Which makes our lives THAT much more difficult, since the new Z4 and the 3 series convertible with hard top has BETTER roll over protection than the E30 and E36 with fixed roofs.

In a way, I wish BMW CCA would realize that we're in the 21st century and that the vast majority of their members are no longer the 2002 driving, flash their lights and wave at other BMW members of the past. I've done some instructing with Driving Concepts Incorporated and they use all the same BMW CCA instructors and they allow convertibles, and they have anywhere from 3-5 events a year without any incident, so if your friends really wants to take their convertibles to the track, they can sign up with DCI (www.drivingconcepts.com) rather than BMW CCA. Or they can do car control or autocross but they will not be allowed to do BMW CCA track schools without some serious, irreversible modifications to their cars.
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      09-22-2010, 08:31 PM   #32
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That's what I was afraid of. Thanks for the insight from "behind the scenes."
I'ts pretty sad if the people who run the CCA are still living in the days of the 2002.
A few SoCal guys are looking for an event on the M3 side, but it doesn't look like Driving Concepts has anymore HPDE scheduled this year.


There's also an Audi event Thurs/Fri and a big event at Infineon next month. The GGC had to cancel Infineon this coming weekend too. My buddy and I were going to do both events.
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Let me get this straight... You are swapping out parts designed by some of the top engineers in the world because some guys sponsored by a company told you it's "better??" But when you ask the same guy about tracking, "oh no, I have a kid now" or "I just detailed my car." or "i just got new tires."

Last edited by aus; 09-22-2010 at 08:40 PM.
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      09-22-2010, 11:00 PM   #33
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That's what I was afraid of. Thanks for the insight from "behind the scenes."
I'ts pretty sad if the people who run the CCA are still living in the days of the 2002.
A few SoCal guys are looking for an event on the M3 side, but it doesn't look like Driving Concepts has anymore HPDE scheduled this year.


There's also an Audi event Thurs/Fri and a big event at Infineon next month. The GGC had to cancel Infineon this coming weekend too. My buddy and I were going to do both events.
Have you tried PCA (Porsche Club) events?
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      09-23-2010, 12:09 AM   #34
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I would LOVE to, but you have to own one in Cali to be a member; at least that's how it was before. A Porsche doesn't fit my current family situation at all... other than a Cayanne, which I'm not interested in at all.
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Let me get this straight... You are swapping out parts designed by some of the top engineers in the world because some guys sponsored by a company told you it's "better??" But when you ask the same guy about tracking, "oh no, I have a kid now" or "I just detailed my car." or "i just got new tires."
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      09-23-2010, 12:18 AM   #35
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HACK, in the e-mail I got, it sounded like enough people registered, but didn't pay. That would be fixed with using motorsportreg wouldn't it?
The current 2 step process is very cumbersome, especially if they're trying to appeal to the 2002 crowd.
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Let me get this straight... You are swapping out parts designed by some of the top engineers in the world because some guys sponsored by a company told you it's "better??" But when you ask the same guy about tracking, "oh no, I have a kid now" or "I just detailed my car." or "i just got new tires."
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      10-04-2010, 08:39 PM   #36
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I would have been a good weekend for driving. There was a good rain for about an hour Sat but the rest of the weekend would have been pretty cool.
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Let me get this straight... You are swapping out parts designed by some of the top engineers in the world because some guys sponsored by a company told you it's "better??" But when you ask the same guy about tracking, "oh no, I have a kid now" or "I just detailed my car." or "i just got new tires."
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      10-05-2010, 01:04 AM   #37
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HACK, in the e-mail I got, it sounded like enough people registered, but didn't pay. That would be fixed with using motorsportreg wouldn't it?
The current 2 step process is very cumbersome, especially if they're trying to appeal to the 2002 crowd.
Yes it would have. I believe there's a survey sent out to chapter members asking for feedback to the program. It would be a great time to mention how the two step registration process is a pain in the ss.
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      10-12-2010, 01:20 AM   #38
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Yes it would have. I believe there's a survey sent out to chapter members asking for feedback to the program. It would be a great time to mention how the two step registration process is a pain in the ss.
Got the survey... sent it back with STRONG recommendations for a single step process.
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Let me get this straight... You are swapping out parts designed by some of the top engineers in the world because some guys sponsored by a company told you it's "better??" But when you ask the same guy about tracking, "oh no, I have a kid now" or "I just detailed my car." or "i just got new tires."
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      10-20-2010, 07:32 PM   #39
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Yes it would have. I believe there's a survey sent out to chapter members asking for feedback to the program. It would be a great time to mention how the two step registration process is a pain in the ss.
Hi guys, Brian from MSR here. Just happened across this thread this evening - I was watching the Las Vegas school with great interest because it had been awhile since Sin City held an event and it looked like it was going to be a ton of fun with the cross-chapter cooperation. I was bummed to hear it was cancelled.

I think having the microsite dedicated to just the event was a smart move but doing it in Flash (not mobile friendly, poor search engine ranking and other issues) and requiring postal mail as part of the registration process were two things that could have been done better.

There are a couple of realities to address: the first is that people don't want to fill out a paper check and address an envelope and find a stamp and mail anything. It's just not competitive. Every organization is _competing_ for the business of the track day attendee and if you're not 100% online and easy, you're putting up roadblocks that other organizations are not. Second, love it or hate it, the majority of the BMW CCA (and PCA, ACNA and SCCA) uses MotorsportReg.com. That means that any organization using us doesn't require a significant percentage of their attendees to create a profile or learn a new system or follow new procedures. Again - we're talking about lowering the barriers to getting participants signed up and paid.

The BMW CCA program already delivers a great product. Make sure people know about it (marketing) and eliminate the roadblocks between "wanting to go" and "signed up and paid".

I'm happy to provide advice on successful techniques we've learned from watching our customers... if you guys/gals have any questions, drop us a line.


Brian
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      10-20-2010, 10:46 PM   #40
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I agree with Brian, as does HACK by his comments. It was a PAIN to fill in most of the registration, then go to paypal and pay. THEN have to go back to the registration form to enter my paypal receipt.

Brian, maybe talk with Mark Dadgar from the Golden Gate Chapter. He's on the Bimmerforums track section. They're having trouble with filling their schools too. I was all set to go to Infineon, but it was also cancelled.
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Let me get this straight... You are swapping out parts designed by some of the top engineers in the world because some guys sponsored by a company told you it's "better??" But when you ask the same guy about tracking, "oh no, I have a kid now" or "I just detailed my car." or "i just got new tires."
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      10-27-2010, 03:30 PM   #41
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I did it here at Chicagoland Speedway a few years ago. There's a pace car that you stay behind. My buddy and I were the fastest at about 140mph average. I also did a racing school at USA International Speedway in Lakeland Florida about 6 years ago. Dave Reutimann who drives for Michael Waltrip Racing was my instructor, great guy, was just getting his chance to drive a truck for Ken Schrader back then. This was a small half mile track but you're on your own and can go as fast as you want.
Im thinking about doing the driving school at Atlanta Motor Speedway
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