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      05-23-2016, 08:53 AM   #1
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Cylinder 5 Timing Corrections

See attached log example.

Every WOT pull I see consistent timing pulled in just cylinder 5. Occasionally other cylinders will pull some, but never as much or as often.

I just had new plugs and index 12 injectors put in to try and address the issue. I have also swapped coils 1 and 5 to see if it was the coil... no luck. Not sure where else to look.

this happens regardless of tune or octane level... stage 1, 2, e60 demo ect.


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http://datazap.me/u/2011z435is/demo-...?log=0&data=22
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      05-23-2016, 09:54 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2011z435is View Post
See attached log example.

Every WOT pull I see consistent timing pulled in just cylinder 5. Occasionally other cylinders will pull some, but never as much or as often.

I just had new plugs and index 12 injectors put in to try and address the issue. I have also swapped coils 1 and 5 to see if it was the coil... no luck. Not sure where else to look.

this happens regardless of tune or octane level... stage 1, 2, e60 demo ect.


mods are:

ER FMIC/CP
tial bov
AR Designs catless downpipes
k&n drop in filter

only 25,000 miles on car


http://datazap.me/u/2011z435is/demo-...?log=0&data=22
Based on my research (caveat: I am not tuner) I am pretty sure -5 is no big deal. Timing corrections are normal on this car, even at stock tuning. From what I have read, you want to look for consistent multiples of values higher than 5.

This link provides some insight: https://blog.protuningfreaks.com/201...eliable-power/
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      05-23-2016, 10:13 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2011z435is View Post
See attached log example.

Every WOT pull I see consistent timing pulled in just cylinder 5. Occasionally other cylinders will pull some, but never as much or as often.

I just had new plugs and index 12 injectors put in to try and address the issue. I have also swapped coils 1 and 5 to see if it was the coil... no luck. Not sure where else to look.

this happens regardless of tune or octane level... stage 1, 2, e60 demo ect.


mods are:

ER FMIC/CP
tial bov
AR Designs catless downpipes
k&n drop in filter

only 25,000 miles on car


http://datazap.me/u/2011z435is/demo-...?log=0&data=22
Might be carbon buildup. I walnut blasted at 27k miles and my Cyl 5 was the worst out of all of them. Surprising amount of gunk built up despite the lower milage.
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      05-23-2016, 11:18 AM   #4
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Do you have any custom tunes that it does it on? If so send it to me at ChrisKinnovations@gmail.com. I need something other than preloaded MHD maps that i can modify for you
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      05-24-2016, 05:19 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3000GT MR View Post
Do you have any custom tunes that it does it on? If so send it to me at ChrisKinnovations@gmail.com. I need something other than preloaded MHD maps that i can modify for you
From what I have seen usually cyl 5 is the most loud and pulls the most timing, correct, do you agree?
For some reason mine is pulling timing on cyl 1. After replacing all the spark plugs is better but still there. Would you work with me as well on custom MHD back end flash? I read your thread on N54tech...
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      05-24-2016, 05:59 PM   #6
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      05-25-2016, 10:12 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by feuer View Post
From what I have seen usually cyl 5 is the most loud and pulls the most timing, correct, do you agree?
For some reason mine is pulling timing on cyl 1. After replacing all the spark plugs is better but still there. Would you work with me as well on custom MHD back end flash? I read your thread on N54tech...
In the E85 world and especially with single turbos and IJEOS Cyl 5 screams at you non-stop. I have made some tuning changes based off actual engine data that seems to work quite well so far.

I have done everything to try and suppress the timing in that cylinder. I dont even have individual cyl lambda control active on my car so every cyl in each bank is receiving the same amount of fuel. So thats weeded out as a possibility.
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      05-25-2016, 10:21 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3000GT MR View Post
Do you have any custom tunes that it does it on? If so send it to me at ChrisKinnovations@gmail.com. I need something other than preloaded MHD maps that i can modify for you
Can you elaborate on what table changes are needed to fix this? Thanks!
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      05-25-2016, 09:50 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NA55 View Post
Can you elaborate on what table changes are needed to fix this? Thanks!
I will once i establish a better data base. Im not one for just throwing tunes out there. That stuff gets spread like wild fires around here. I have a few people on a few different set ups that consistently lose timing in cyl 5 running it. Ill see how they go long term.
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      05-26-2016, 12:08 AM   #10
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My cylinder 5 is noisy as well... Apparently it's common
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      06-01-2016, 04:58 PM   #11
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Just looked at your latest logs... looks like BQ fixed it
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      06-01-2016, 07:12 PM   #12
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Wow 13.4-13.6:1 AFR with 12-13* timing? Going lean does get rid of cyl 5 noise but thats not the proper method, thats for sure. Careful running that map, idc what fuel your on.
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      06-01-2016, 10:00 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3000GT MR View Post
Wow 13.4-13.6:1 AFR with 12-13* timing? Going lean does get rid of cyl 5 noise but thats not the proper method, thats for sure. Careful running that map, idc what fuel your on.
I think he is on e60. Seems fairly normal to run that much timing on e60, not sure about the AFRs most people are in the 12s.
I as surprised that the logs only go up to 6k RPMS
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      06-02-2016, 02:59 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3000GT MR View Post
Wow 13.4-13.6:1 AFR with 12-13* timing? Going lean does get rid of cyl 5 noise but that's not the proper method, thats for sure. Careful running that map, idc what fuel your on.
So what is "too lean" for the DI N54 closed loop system running more than 60% ethanol mix, and where is the R&D to back it up other than following the R&D theory and failures of PI open loop systems ie Subaru, Mitsu, Mazda ?

Proper method ? Proper method established and researched on the N54 or other platforms ?

Edit: Just in case this comes up. The factory knock tables are unaltered. I do not believe in touching those tables.
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      06-02-2016, 04:14 PM   #15
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The Cyl 5 Mystery

Well I am going to be blunt and to the point. The cyl 5 mysterious timing corrections that is justified because it makes the most noise is a bunch of unfactual rubbish, and mere conjecture. I guess this was another theory adopted from another non N54 platform that the N54 inherited like a disease.

There are no publically released R&D tests provided with external sensors to show cyl 5 makes more noise than the other cylinders. In fact you wouldn't even have to go this far as the DME has knock voltage parameters which will show you completed the opposite of this.

Why blame noise ? Well hell anything goes in order to justify why something can't be resolved or you don't thoroughly understand. The mysterious timing correction in cyl 5, that almost seems to be a plague, is a DME elaborate correction no related to knock, or noise.

It is related to AFR function and torque in which the DME designates the correction to that cylinder which is part of the DME logic. You have a lot of tuners who like to tune old school Subi, Mazda ways with static flat AFRs and static flat about everything.

I can pull dozens of logs lean or rich, pump gas, to E85 on COBB or MHD regardless if its I8A0S, IJE0S, IKM0S, ILA0S or INA0S or whatever, you will not see this this distributed character of correction.

When you decide to tune a DI closed loop system like you would a PI open loop system, well hey, you get the attributes of just that.
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      06-02-2016, 04:44 PM   #16
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update:

so far tuning with BQ has resolved the cylinder 5 timing corrections. will post more updates when we finish dialing in the tune.
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      06-02-2016, 06:59 PM   #17
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While we are on the subject, and building off the inter cooler thread you started, have you had any luck tuning cars that are in a very hot climate?
you are a perfect guy to ask since u are in Florida.
In the summer here in Sacramento its common to see 100+ degrees.
Yesterday I had ambient temp of 104, my IAT were in the 130s
Is it even possible to work with something like that?
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      06-02-2016, 08:08 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreyo27 View Post
While we are on the subject, and building off the inter cooler thread you started, have you had any luck tuning cars that are in a very hot climate?
you are a perfect guy to ask since u are in Florida.
In the summer here in Sacramento its common to see 100+ degrees.
Yesterday I had ambient temp of 104, my IAT were in the 130s
Is it even possible to work with something like that?
On 91 water octane ? lol

Here in Florida it is predominant 93 octane with 10% or more ethanol in the pump and a decent amount of E85 stations around.

Pretty much beat up on 93 octane here and during simmer I go to a higher ethan beld due to the heat.
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      06-02-2016, 10:01 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BuraQ View Post
Well I am going to be blunt and to the point. The cyl 5 mysterious timing corrections that is justified because it makes the most noise is a bunch of unfactual rubbish, and mere conjecture. I guess this was another theory adopted from another non N54 platform that the N54 inherited like a disease.

There are no publically released R&D tests provided with external sensors to show cyl 5 makes more noise than the other cylinders. In fact you wouldn't even have to go this far as the DME has knock voltage parameters which will show you completed the opposite of this.

Why blame noise ? Well hell anything goes in order to justify why something can't be resolved or you don't thoroughly understand. The mysterious timing correction in cyl 5, that almost seems to be a plague, is a DME elaborate correction no related to knock, or noise.

It is related to AFR function and torque in which the DME designates the correction to that cylinder which is part of the DME logic. You have a lot of tuners who like to tune old school Subi, Mazda ways with static flat AFRs and static flat about everything.

I can pull dozens of logs lean or rich, pump gas, to E85 on COBB or MHD regardless if its I8A0S, IJE0S, IKM0S, ILA0S or INA0S or whatever, you will not see this this distributed character of correction.

When you decide to tune a DI closed loop system like you would a PI open loop system, well hey, you get the attributes of just that.

Not sure what you were trying to get at with all that. Heres my point exactly,

A log of your own car from 5/27/16. Crazy enough with your theory you have the infamous cyl 5 @5500 timing drop that is still present. ST E85 cars show this more than any other set up and more commonly on IJEOS. My car has had this bad for a while. Leaning the car out to 12.75 temporarily fixed it but after a good heat soak run or after multiple runs in a row it ALWAYS showed back up. Which is EXACTLY what we have here. Try to rich your tune to 12.75-12.5 and let me know how quiet it is. Run full E85 and PI and tell me how quiet it is. This "false knock" that people blame it on is the ONLY reason why KR were even brought to light and modified. I run a IJEOS E85 ST on stock knock tables and dont have a single blip of timing correction after I corrected the crappy VANOS tables that are plaguing this platform and it all started with COBB. With correct cam data, and correct VANOS tuning the engine will ingest a lot more air and naturally more fuel.

This has worked on JYamona's car after he started pulling his hair out and a few other cars that were plagued with the issue.

BTW with some VANO's work you can reduce carbon build up and for most probably never have to clean they're valves for 50k+ miles and it wont be nearly as bad when they do. More to come on that

http://datazap.me/u/buraq/e89-z4-35i...og=0&data=5-21
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      06-03-2016, 12:02 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3000GT MR View Post
Not sure what you were trying to get at with all that. Heres my point exactly,

A log of your own car from 5/27/16. Crazy enough with your theory you have the infamous cyl 5 @5500 timing drop that is still present. ST E85 cars show this more than any other set up and more commonly on IJEOS. My car has had this bad for a while. Leaning the car out to 12.75 temporarily fixed it but after a good heat soak run or after multiple runs in a row it ALWAYS showed back up. Which is EXACTLY what we have here. Try to rich your tune to 12.75-12.5 and let me know how quiet it is. Run full E85 and PI and tell me how quiet it is. This "false knock" that people blame it on is the ONLY reason why KR were even brought to light and modified. I run a IJEOS E85 ST on stock knock tables and dont have a single blip of timing correction after I corrected the crappy VANOS tables that are plaguing this platform and it all started with COBB. With correct cam data, and correct VANOS tuning the engine will ingest a lot more air and naturally more fuel.

This has worked on JYamona's car after he started pulling his hair out and a few other cars that were plagued with the issue.

BTW with some VANO's work you can reduce carbon build up and for most probably never have to clean they're valves for 50k+ miles and it wont be nearly as bad when they do. More to come on that

http://datazap.me/u/buraq/e89-z4-35i...og=0&data=5-21
That is a single instance of a minor timing correction that is not ongoing, as you would put it "non repeated". Nothing abnormal in character from the other corrections you will find in my other logs of other cylinders. There is nothing "infamous" here or anywhere in my logs as the correction is not ongoing or repeating itself like some other corrections your will find from other cylinders. If you had looked through my other logs instead of selective picking one which there are other corrections that are worse induced than cyl 5. Example Cyl 2 and 4

http://datazap.me/u/buraq/bqe60?log=...-21&zoom=9-133

Make sure to read the notes also on the above link for the log which was going through testing

Cyl 1, No cyl 5

http://datazap.me/u/buraq/log-146378...-21&zoom=20-91

O corrections, no Cyl 5

http://datazap.me/u/buraq/log-146335...3-21&zoom=7-61

http://datazap.me/u/buraq/log-146335...3-21&zoom=9-78

0 Corrections, No Cyl 5

http://datazap.me/u/buraq/log-146301...-21&zoom=22-65

Cyl 1, 2 (major correction) and 4, No Cyl 5

http://datazap.me/u/buraq/log-146259...21&zoom=13-143

You don't see cyl 5 repeating itself, that's the big difference from the cyl 5 mystery being talked about in this thread.

Leaning the car out is not the only way to fix this, and not the fix that I implement .

Here is a 93 octane log running rich average afr for US 93 octane.

http://datazap.me/u/buraq/e89-z4-35i...21&zoom=20-143

http://datazap.me/u/buraq/bq93zillav...-29&zoom=10-76

Here is a much more richer AFR on E70 fuel not a sound from cyl 5

http://datazap.me/u/buraq/bqe6070-bo...20&zoom=22-126

Lets take a look at my previous 335is DCT E60-E70 running a hell of a lot more richer

http://datazap.me/u/buraq/77%C2%B0?l...9&zoom=216-349

Here is a 100 octane log after new adaptation from being flashed running richer than richie rich

http://datazap.me/u/buraq/bq95ije0s6...7-21&zoom=9-96

When you leaned out your AFR to fix you cyl 5 ongoing correction it is because you linked it with your torque eff divisor correctly and calculated torque output. It was not solely leaning AFR out that did the trick.

Yes, VANOS helps eliminate a good amount of it also.
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      06-03-2016, 12:18 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by BuraQ View Post
On 91 water octane ? lol

Here in Florida it is predominant 93 octane with 10% or more ethanol in the pump and a decent amount of E85 stations around.

Pretty much beat up on 93 octane here and during simmer I go to a higher ethan beld due to the heat.
I gave up on 91 water a while ago. Trying E85.
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      06-03-2016, 06:11 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3000GT MR View Post
Not sure what you were trying to get at with all that. Heres my point exactly,

A log of your own car from 5/27/16. Crazy enough with your theory you have the infamous cyl 5 @5500 timing drop that is still present. ST E85 cars show this more than any other set up and more commonly on IJEOS. My car has had this bad for a while. Leaning the car out to 12.75 temporarily fixed it but after a good heat soak run or after multiple runs in a row it ALWAYS showed back up. Which is EXACTLY what we have here. Try to rich your tune to 12.75-12.5 and let me know how quiet it is. Run full E85 and PI and tell me how quiet it is. This "false knock" that people blame it on is the ONLY reason why KR were even brought to light and modified. I run a IJEOS E85 ST on stock knock tables and dont have a single blip of timing correction after I corrected the crappy VANOS tables that are plaguing this platform and it all started with COBB. With correct cam data, and correct VANOS tuning the engine will ingest a lot more air and naturally more fuel.

This has worked on JYamona's car after he started pulling his hair out and a few other cars that were plagued with the issue.

BTW with some VANO's work you can reduce carbon build up and for most probably never have to clean they're valves for 50k+ miles and it wont be nearly as bad when they do. More to come on that

http://datazap.me/u/buraq/e89-z4-35i...og=0&data=5-21
I can't make heads of tails of what he's trying to say either. Some kind of ridiculous rant about our cars being closed loop and that means things shouldn't be flat or something. But even with open loop tuning you can get things wherever you want, so closed loop has nothing to do with anything, but i digress. I'm sure he had a point somewhere in all that nonsense.

I've been talking about vanos and egr for valve cleanliness since like 2012, it's a great way to keep things cleaner. My last cleaning after 40k miles (at 80k) was cleaner than the first cleaning at 20k on the stock tune.

As for cyl5 timing corrections, people call it noise because that's generally what causes drops, knock noise. But it's not real knock, that's been known since before mhd. And there's lots of ways to eliminate it, vanos intake cam tuning being one (which can even effect boost you can hold on stock turbos)... but that's not rely a good fix imo. It's a bandaid, which doesn't help power, hurts efficiency etc. Torque effective divisor afr might help, or rpm, i don't know. I haven't had issues with this in ages, but it seems more common on IJE0S autos anyway which isn't what I am. Tuning to 13.5:1 afr also is not the answer, whether it clears the drop up or not. That's a worse idea than poor intake cam tuning.
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