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      10-15-2010, 08:59 AM   #133
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      10-15-2010, 09:41 AM   #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scheherazade View Post
I had an XI with LSD, suspension, lots of front camber, little rear camber, rear toe out - and it would oversteer in all conditions (with and without good rear traction).

An I in stock form understeers when on traction, and oversteers when the rear loses traction.

I could do doughnuts in my XI just fine.

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What LSD did you have? Were there any complications/issues (I can't think of any) with the existing xi system?
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      10-15-2010, 11:09 AM   #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaker View Post
EXACTLY. XI is inclement weather aid while Quattro is a performance tool.
I'm sure quattro's wiz bang torsen diff etc. and the wiz bang systems on EVOs et al. are well and good and add more traction, but the simple matter is that we're just a suspended mass goin' down the road on 4 tires, and what happens at the contact patch is what matters. If you understand what a friction circle is (aka traction circle - I'll leave it up to you to google those terms), you will undeniably admit that ~any~ AWD is a performance system, and not just a safety system, regardless if the "circle" is large in the case of a dry racetrack, or small as in the case of a frozen over street. Do you think Audi (see video above) had success against their competition (who, uh, I sincerely doubt had open differentials) just on their wiz bang diffs in AWD systems, or do you think just the fact of being AWD had something to do with their domination?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor T View Post
I hate to say it, but it's people who think that they are safer in AWD vehicles in winter that usually get into accidents. Simple law of inertia states that it takes more effort to stop and/or change directions in heavier vehicles.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pits200 View Post
Hmm, not sure if this is totally correct.
It is totally correct, it's just not the total picture, because we go foward and turn as well as stop. Again look at the traction circle. In straight line braking or while turning and braking (trail braking) or while turning and coasting, AWD buys you nothing, of course. In fact it's a detriment due to its extra mass. All cars have 4 wheel braking. (Someone tell that to those idiots who rolled over their 4x4/AWD on the highway on a snowy night.) It's while driving forward (accelerating) in straight line or while turning that AWD has an advantage over RWD/FWD because (looking at traction circle) some turning traction is gained because some of the acceleration traction has been "moved" to the other side of the car. Here's the nitty gritty though, due to higher slip angles inherent when turning the front wheels, more turning traction is needed up front than rears, so you can't move as much torque as you would like up front.
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Last edited by aleckzandr; 10-21-2010 at 04:51 PM. Reason: Typo, clarification
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      10-15-2010, 11:52 AM   #136
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Let me be clear. BMW did not design the xi with dry road performance in mind, like Audi and Mitsubishi did. One only needs to look at the springs to confirm this. I'll shut up now.
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      10-15-2010, 12:36 PM   #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaker View Post
EXACTLY. XI is inclement weather aid while Quattro is a performance tool.
How so? They both have front and rear open diffs with a center clutch or differential that modulates power front and rear. The main difference with the BMW is it can send 100%. They both activate cross side wheel spin with the ABS. It was only in 2010 that Audi offered the rear LSD.

So enlighten me how one is performance oriented and the other is not when they basically function exactly the same.
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      10-15-2010, 12:38 PM   #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aleckzandr View Post
Let me be clear. BMW did not design the xi with dry road performance in mind, like Audi and Mitsubishi did. One only needs to look at the springs to confirm this. I'll shut up now.
I don't know if ride height justifies this in any way. Look at a stock STI or EVO. MY STI stock was no stiffer than the XI and had about the same body roll.
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      10-15-2010, 12:40 PM   #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaker View Post
EXACTLY. XI is inclement weather aid while Quattro is a performance tool.
Can you explain why you think that and what makes you believe this?
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      10-15-2010, 01:19 PM   #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ruxp View Post
Can you explain why you think that and what makes you believe this?
he read it from a rwd fanboy a long time ago on internet forums. it's catchy and makes rwd bmw owners feel better.

Quattro has about 10 iterations, all but the latest of which are clearly inferior to the basic xdrive in the 3 series.
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      10-15-2010, 01:46 PM   #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikolas View Post
How so? They both have front and rear open diffs with a center clutch or differential that modulates power front and rear. The main difference with the BMW is it can send 100%. They both activate cross side wheel spin with the ABS. It was only in 2010 that Audi offered the rear LSD.

So enlighten me how one is performance oriented and the other is not when they basically function exactly the same.
That's easy. xdrive is electronic, quattro is mechanical.

A4s lack lsd ( at least until 2010), s4 and rs4 have and had lsd for a long time (or always)

Last edited by Kolyan2k; 10-15-2010 at 02:16 PM.
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      10-15-2010, 01:56 PM   #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolyan2k View Post
That's easy. xdrive is electonic, quattro is mechanical.
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      10-15-2010, 02:06 PM   #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markinva View Post
he read it from a rwd fanboy a long time ago on internet forums. it's catchy and makes rwd bmw owners feel better.

Quattro has about 10 iterations, all but the latest of which are clearly inferior to the basic xdrive in the 3 series.
Spoken like a true BMW fanboi.

Most people and most reviewers would say that the true quattro (not the Haldex version) is one of the best out there.

quattro is reliable, predictable and proven and has been around since the mid eighties. It has won many a rally - can one say that about x-drive?

Actually, a few years back AutoMotorSport (the German Car & Driver) tested the A6, 5 series, E and Honda Legend (Acura RL). The E series 4matic won over the Audi, BMW and Honda (in that order.)

I think you have to ask yourself "where is the line between performance and safety?"
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      10-15-2010, 02:20 PM   #144
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based on if u needa drive on snow or not
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      10-15-2010, 02:35 PM   #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cb1111 View Post
Spoken like a true BMW fanboi.

Most people and most reviewers would say that the true quattro (not the Haldex version) is one of the best out there.

quattro is reliable, predictable and proven and has been around since the mid eighties. It has won many a rally - can one say that about x-drive?

Actually, a few years back AutoMotorSport (the German Car & Driver) tested the A6, 5 series, E and Honda Legend (Acura RL). The E series 4matic won over the Audi, BMW and Honda (in that order.)

I think you have to ask yourself "where is the line between performance and safety?"
BMW has been making awd cars since the mid 80s too. I really don't understand your point other than regurgitating marketing mumbo jumbo.

Nothing wrong with quattro. All AWD systems have certain inherent performance advantages over rwd.
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      10-15-2010, 03:18 PM   #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikolas View Post
I don't know if ride height justifies this in any way. Look at a stock STI or EVO. MY STI stock was no stiffer than the XI and had about the same body roll.
We can agree though that a higher Cg does nothing for driving performance, right? It's an effect from higher clearance. We can also agree that springs that take longer to load also have a detrimental effect from a performance stand point, right? Oh, but softer springs feel oh so good on our backsides.

<soapbox>
I'm ignorant when it comes to Audi's Quattro, from what little I've read it sounds like a very capable, if not awesome, system. So I'm not going to argue that the xi is superior or inferior to the quattro, but the thread's title is 335i or 335xi. (I answered that Q already to the OP.) Getting an LSD now sounds tempting. Hmmm, $ towards an e36 m3 sounds like a better way to fill my addiction. Xi and i both have their caveats: the i leaves a little performance left on the table because there is still some traction left (even when turning, to a certain degree) on the front tires. One only needs to look at past success of Audi and the fairly recent "up and comers", EVO, WRX STI, and Nissan GT-R etc., to notice that the performance benefits of AWD are ~real~. I bodly say that my opinion is that it more than offsets the weight caveat of AWD. Complexity and resulting potential failures remains to be seen. Fuel economy (or lack thereof) is another discussion. I will also boldly say that considering M division's foray from NA to FI, with ever increasing heat from the competitors mentioned above... wait for it... I think BMW will eventually make an AWD M3. Did I just say that? Hold on, okay, flamesuit now on.
</soapbox>
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Last edited by aleckzandr; 10-21-2010 at 04:53 PM.
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      10-15-2010, 03:51 PM   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markinva View Post
BMW has been making awd cars since the mid 80s too. I really don't understand your point other than regurgitating marketing mumbo jumbo.

Nothing wrong with quattro. All AWD systems have certain inherent performance advantages over rwd.
And all were junk until the current version of xdrive
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      10-15-2010, 04:47 PM   #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aleckzandr View Post
What LSD did you have? Were there any complications/issues (I can't think of any) with the existing xi system?
Wavetrac.

It worked fine.
With the nanny enabled, the electronics would come on less frequently.
With the nanny off, I could slide the car around as I please.

The LSD was really nice in winter with the nanny off.
I could drive on the snow without having by brakes tapping all the time.
And the car was predictable to boot. Never had the nanny kick in and fight what I'm telling it to do.





Winter driving was the impetus for me doing the LSD.

I took the car to an empty parking lot and tried to do doughnuts and 8's with it on the snow - the nanny would intervene and FORCE the car to go straight as soon as I got any slide going on.

I was fairly pissed off. What if I was in a turn, and slid a little bit, and the car friggin' sent me straight into oncoming traffic just so I wouldn't step out in the rear? Stupidest shit I've ever seen.

I literally had to pull my e-brake a couple times in a turn/exit to force the thing to rotate on the snow when my stability BS engaged. I HATED it.

From then on I used the LSD with nanny off in the winter.
If the rear slid a bit in a turn, fine. I never had to worry about electronically-induced-understeer ever again.

Then in summer came the aggressive alignment. Which just made the car a lot more fun to drive.

-scheherazade
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      10-15-2010, 05:45 PM   #149
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If I kept cars for over 2 years, LSD would be my number 1 mod.....I hope my next car will come with it.
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      10-15-2010, 06:42 PM   #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolyan2k View Post
If I kept cars for over 2 years, LSD would be my number 1 mod.....I hope my next car will come with it.
You know, if you buy a complete pumpkin, you can just re-sell it later.

-scheherazade
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      10-16-2010, 10:21 AM   #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pits200 View Post
I've seen this comment said a few times but still don't know what people mean by it.

Can someone please explain?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ruxp View Post
The short explanation is that people are just parroting something they heard, but don't actually have any understanding of.
It seems that you are very knowledgeable than me can you please explain then different AWD system and how they work? Why one is better than the other?


AWD Technology

Haldex -

Torsen -

Symmetrical AWD system -


What other call their AWD system

ATTESA E-TS system

SH-AWD

4Motion

4Matic

All-Trac

S-AWC

Quadra Drive II



Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolyan2k View Post
It is true that many don't understand some things, but I must repeat myself, I don't want to relie on my experience or the lack of it, this is why I trust the pros from CD and BMW themselves. And both pretty much say that xdrive is safety feature.

lots of people confuse the big names (evo, sti, quattro) in awd which were designed for performance with xdrive which was designed for safety.
Its understandable that we are in a BMW forum, some think that the BMW AWD system is superior to everything else, the classic argument "my (AWD) car is better than yours"

BMW doesnt even sell the AWD as performance, well not as much as EVO and STi or even Audi (unfair advantage).
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      10-16-2010, 01:22 PM   #152
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the only reason quattro is a performance advantage is because the alternative VW/Audi drivetrain is FWD. Same with subaru, mitsu etc.... they are either fwd or rwd.

so clearlly awd>fwd from a performance perspective. It's not because audi engineers "designed" it for performance. and BMW engineers didn't sit around thinking up ways for the system to be safe and good in snow vs high performance. That's just a ludicrous thought. They certainly wouldn't have made it so rear biased (60% Rear by default, increasing to 100%) if they were trying to make it safe and good in snow.

geeze guys really?
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      10-16-2010, 05:50 PM   #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markinva View Post
the only reason quattro is a performance advantage is because the alternative VW/Audi drivetrain is FWD. Same with subaru, mitsu etc.... they are either fwd or rwd.

so clearlly awd>fwd from a performance perspective. It's not because audi engineers "designed" it for performance. and BMW engineers didn't sit around thinking up ways for the system to be safe and good in snow vs high performance. That's just a ludicrous thought. They certainly wouldn't have made it so rear biased (60% Rear by default, increasing to 100%) if they were trying to make it safe and good in snow.

geeze guys really?
there is like 3 different Quattro variations (same with Suby and Mitibishi). While the "basic" ones are better then X-drive IMO, of course this can be questionable because as I know todays X-drive is good and not as crappy as before (whenever the change was 2005 or 2006 or whatever)

Other variations of ALL 3 AWD systems are made for performance and light years away from X-drive (which only comes in 1 basic design).
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      10-16-2010, 06:00 PM   #154
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The XI system is not that basic. It is one of the only AWD systems that can vary power 100% f/r. Most others have a limit.
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