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      10-17-2010, 08:58 AM   #155
pits200
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolyan2k View Post
there is like 3 different Quattro variations (same with Suby and Mitibishi). While the "basic" ones are better then X-drive IMO, of course this can be questionable because as I know todays X-drive is good and not as crappy as before (whenever the change was 2005 or 2006 or whatever)

Other variations of ALL 3 AWD systems are made for performance and light years away from X-drive (which only comes in 1 basic design).

But why are they light years away from X-Drive???

I seriously have not heard a direct answer as to why they are so much better.

I'm not claiming X-Drive is the best but factual information as to why it is so far behind would be great to support your argument, don't you think.

That's like me saying that Yankees are so much better than the Red Sox but not giving any backup as to why this is so.
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      10-17-2010, 09:10 AM   #156
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^^^^

Because the Audi, Subaru and Mitsubishi fanboys say they are?

Last edited by Psukhe; 10-17-2010 at 09:16 AM.
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      10-17-2010, 10:28 AM   #157
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from Audi World:


the BMW xDrive system uses a set of computerized wet clutch packs to route power. Although this system is still a "reactive" system, it transfers power much more rapidly and effectively than the MB system. BMW uses this system to preserve the RWD-like driving dynamic of their vehicles in dry conditions.

The Audi quattro IV system uses a Torsen center differential, which is a mechanical gear set that normally sends power 50-50 front and rear but can "sense" slippage and re-route power to the other end. (I have no idea how it manages this feat) This is entirely mechanical and happens in real time, so there is no computer feedback loop involved as with the other systems. The front and rear differentials are open and use the brakes to route power side to side like the MB system.
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      10-17-2010, 12:26 PM   #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DenverJayhawk View Post
from Audi World:


the BMW xDrive system uses a set of computerized wet clutch packs to route power. Although this system is still a "reactive" system, it transfers power much more rapidly and effectively than the MB system. BMW uses this system to preserve the RWD-like driving dynamic of their vehicles in dry conditions.The Audi quattro IV system uses a Torsen center differential, which is a mechanical gear set that normally sends power 50-50 front and rear but can "sense" slippage and re-route power to the other end. (I have no idea how it manages this feat) This is entirely mechanical and happens in real time, so there is no computer feedback loop involved as with the other systems. The front and rear differentials are open and use the brakes to route power side to side like the MB system.
I thought the bolded part of this is particularily relevant to our discussion.
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      10-17-2010, 04:14 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by DenverJayhawk View Post
from Audi World:


the BMW xDrive system uses a set of computerized wet clutch packs to route power. Although this system is still a "reactive" system, it transfers power much more rapidly and effectively than the MB system. BMW uses this system to preserve the RWD-like driving dynamic of their vehicles in dry conditions.

The Audi quattro IV system uses a Torsen center differential, which is a mechanical gear set that normally sends power 50-50 front and rear but can "sense" slippage and re-route power to the other end. (I have no idea how it manages this feat) This is entirely mechanical and happens in real time, so there is no computer feedback loop involved as with the other systems. The front and rear differentials are open and use the brakes to route power side to side like the MB system.
Thats the basic previous Gen 4 Quattro thats what used since 1995. After that there is Gen 5 with 40/60 split and electronic locking differentials, I think S and RS models also used manual limited slip diffs.

Then there is new Sport Torque Vectoring Quattro system. And after this there is Generation 6 Quattro thats even more advanced. (I am not sure if its already in production)
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      10-17-2010, 04:18 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by pits200 View Post
But why are they light years away from X-Drive???

I seriously have not heard a direct answer as to why they are so much better.

I'm not claiming X-Drive is the best but factual information as to why it is so far behind would be great to support your argument, don't you think.

That's like me saying that Yankees are so much better than the Red Sox but not giving any backup as to why this is so.
Why ?

"BMW xDrive system uses a set of computerized wet clutch packs to route power"

Mitsubishi uses advanced Torque Vectoring system designed for racing. STI also uses fully mechanical system with THREE LSDs and center diff is half-electronic and can be controlled from inside the car

I like this vid that kinda shows how capable awd in Mitsubishi is:

Last edited by Kolyan2k; 10-17-2010 at 05:10 PM.
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      10-18-2010, 10:32 AM   #161
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i have driven both rwd and xdrive with both sports suspensions of the 335. maybe because i am not a prodriver but i can barely feel the difference and i even tried to do same sharp corners on both cars and they feel exactly the same at exactly the same speed.
The xi does not come with sport suspension or 19" wheels. The 2 cars are very different.
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      10-18-2010, 10:37 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by pits200 View Post
But why are they light years away from X-Drive???

I seriously have not heard a direct answer as to why they are so much better.

I'm not claiming X-Drive is the best but factual information as to why it is so far behind would be great to support your argument, don't you think.

That's like me saying that Yankees are so much better than the Red Sox but not giving any backup as to why this is so.
As I have said before....to quote Bimmer Magazine.... xi is an inclement weather aid while Audi's Quattro is a performance tool.
It all has to do with how power is distributed . x drive is not available with sport suspension or 19" wheels either.
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      10-18-2010, 10:46 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by markinva View Post
he read it from a rwd fanboy a long time ago on internet forums. it's catchy and makes rwd bmw owners feel better.

Quattro has about 10 iterations, all but the latest of which are clearly inferior to the basic xdrive in the 3 series.
You clearly have never driven an S4 and 335 xi back to back. They are not even close. I traded my S4 on an e92 335 because the xi felt so brutal by comparison. Oh yea...then you can read Bimmer Magazine who tested them. xi comes on smaller tires and higher , softer suspension too.
You people are so open minded. Unbelievable.
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      10-18-2010, 10:54 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by BTM View Post
Obviously the idea that the "better" car in certain situations may not accelerate the fastest is completely lost on you. Do you launch your car from every standstill? No. Do you get feedback from the steering wheel every time you take a turn? Yes. This is why many like the RWD over the AWD, because overall they experience the drivetrain's strengths on a more regular basis and do not drive regularly enough in conditions where the potentially lost grip makes a difference. No one is arguing that the i accelerates faster than the xi. If that's all you care about, then the choice is simple. If you care about handling beyond aggregate grip (which really tells nothing of a car's handling characteristics, just how much grip it generates) then there numerous instances of the RWD model be preferred, and not just in the BMW 335 E90 chassis. Until technology or engineering or whatever can overcome, the general for those concerned with steering feel and weight distribution is that FWD<AWD<RWD. It is simplest to say we all agree to disagree, which in the end of the argument we are all doing. Claiming that an xi handles better because it has more grip, or that it is faster at a dragstrip, when the majority of users NEVER TRACK THEIR CARS, just makes you look like an ignoramus in denial.

The simplest thing for the OP to do is to GO DRIVE BOTH and DECIDE FOR HIMSELF
Well said.
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      10-21-2010, 11:52 AM   #165
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Quote:
EXACTLY. XI is inclement weather aid while Quattro is a performance tool.
Quote:
That's easy. xdrive is electronic, quattro is mechanical.

A4s lack lsd ( at least until 2010), s4 and rs4 have and had lsd for a long time (or always)
Quote:
XI is a safety feature not performance in ANY way. It can launch faster in less then ideal conditions, its safer in snow (if both have winter tires), and its better and safer in rain. < and all that is not because its AWD, but because 335i doesnt have LSD (which was left out for marketing reasons)

edit: 335i with LSD will leave xi in dust in all conditions
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Let me be clear. BMW did not design the xi with dry road performance in mind, like Audi and Mitsubishi did. One only needs to look at the springs to confirm this. I'll shut up now.
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Originally Posted by Leaker View Post
As I have said before....to quote Bimmer Magazine.... xi is an inclement weather aid while Audi's Quattro is a performance tool.
It all has to do with how power is distributed . x drive is not available with sport suspension or 19" wheels either.
I was wondering if any of you caught the story on the front page about xDrive. It's a good read.

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=445487

And I understand the source of this article and all, however, it does contain a good number of facts and a number of people on here seem to rely on "just check BMW's website" and "I tend to believe what professionals tell me as they're, well, professionals (C&D article, etc)" as their evidence that xDrive provides no performance enhancements and just plain sucks.
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      10-21-2010, 12:19 PM   #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2K10E92 View Post
I was wondering if any of you caught the story on the front page about xDrive. It's a good read.

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=445487

And I understand the source of this article and all, however, it does contain a good number of facts and a number of people on here seem to rely on "just check BMW's website" and "I tend to believe what professionals tell me as they're, well, professionals (C&D article, etc)" as their evidence that xDrive provides no performance enhancements and just plain sucks.
Good read...
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      10-21-2010, 12:54 PM   #167
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Good read...
+1
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      10-21-2010, 01:01 PM   #168
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      10-21-2010, 04:12 PM   #169
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What I am most curious of is how does a 335i with coilovers stack up against a 335xi with the same coilovers. Ex. 335i w/ KWv1 vs. 335xi w/ KWv1. This is a more equal test. I feel like my 335xi with the coils feels leaps and bounds better than my car with stock suspension. Even lowered I still got through the Northeast blizzard last winter in 10" inches of snow driving from halfway through Long Island to Brooklyn on the highways with Yokohama Advan S4 A/S tires. Getting up those uphills doing 5 mph would not have been so easy in the 335i.
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      10-21-2010, 09:09 PM   #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2K10E92 View Post
I was wondering if any of you caught the story on the front page about xDrive. It's a good read.

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=445487

And I understand the source of this article and all, however, it does contain a good number of facts and a number of people on here seem to rely on "just check BMW's website" and "I tend to believe what professionals tell me as they're, well, professionals (C&D article, etc)" as their evidence that xDrive provides no performance enhancements and just plain sucks.
I'm not going to let an 8 page thread die where you were so vocal about how xDrive sucks.

Kolyan2K and Leaker, feel free to speak up. Let's hear what you have to say. You had bullshit arguments from the beginning and have been silent since.
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      10-22-2010, 08:14 AM   #171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2K10E92 View Post
I'm not going to let an 8 page thread die where you were so vocal about how xDrive sucks.

Kolyan2K and Leaker, feel free to speak up. Let's hear what you have to say. You had bullshit arguments from the beginning and have been silent since.
Just go and drive the two cars. Car and Driver tested the S4 against the 335 rwd because against the xi would not have been a fair fight. I'm in Canada and have had 5 Audis (quattro) and love the winter traction. 3 have been S cars and were amazing. My B7 S4 had the V8 and the new S4, while faster, has lost its "edge". I don't like the appearance and it sounds terrible compared to my V8. I decided a change was in order and thats how I ended up with e92 335. Drove an M package 335 e92 xi and even the salesman agreed that it was an oxymoron. There is no bullshit argument here. If you like driving quickly and track your car occasionally then, in my opinion, there is no comparison.
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      10-22-2010, 08:17 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by 2K10E92 View Post
I'm not going to let an 8 page thread die where you were so vocal about how xDrive sucks.

Kolyan2K and Leaker, feel free to speak up. Let's hear what you have to say. You had bullshit arguments from the beginning and have been silent since.
What do u want to speak about ? Its just a nice read on xdrive. It has no technological info, no specs, no numbers....

The only comment I can think of is that out of 25 years of development, only the last generation of xdrive is good, before xdrive was junk (I already said this before)
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      10-22-2010, 08:26 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by Kolyan2k View Post
What do u want to speak about ? Its just a nice read on xdrive. It has no technological info, no specs, no numbers....

The only comment I can think of is that out of 25 years of development, only the last generation of xdrive is good, before xdrive was junk (I already said this before)
Says the guy who has provided no technical info, specs, or numbers himself, yet has passed his uninformed opinions off as facts.

This does in fact give some insight as to what the system was designed to do, which you have stated a great number of times that it was strictly for inclement weather and in no way performance related.
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      10-22-2010, 08:27 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by Leaker View Post
Just go and drive the two cars. Car and Driver tested the S4 against the 335 rwd because against the xi would not have been a fair fight. I'm in Canada and have had 5 Audis (quattro) and love the winter traction. 3 have been S cars and were amazing. My B7 S4 had the V8 and the new S4, while faster, has lost its "edge". I don't like the appearance and it sounds terrible compared to my V8. I decided a change was in order and thats how I ended up with e92 335. Drove an M package 335 e92 xi and even the salesman agreed that it was an oxymoron. There is no bullshit argument here. If you like driving quickly and track your car occasionally then, in my opinion, there is no comparison.
I did drive the two cars...

You'll never hear me arguing that the stock suspension on an xDrive is as good as RWD sport package. I'm commenting specifically on the xDrive component of the car which has been the focus of the conversation.
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      10-22-2010, 08:35 AM   #175
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The only downfall to x-drive anyone has been able to say with proof is the higher, slightly-softer suspension. If you even out the suspension levels then and only then can you compare the two-different drive systems.
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      10-22-2010, 09:31 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by 2K10E92 View Post
Says the guy who has provided no technical info, specs, or numbers himself, yet has passed his uninformed opinions off as facts.

This does in fact give some insight as to what the system was designed to do, which you have stated a great number of times that it was strictly for inclement weather and in no way performance related.
How about you go back and reread what I SAID, and if you cannot then i WILL say it again:

I DO NOT rely on myself, but I DO trust professional review from Car and Driver which stated that 335i is a better performance car, and they also state WHY it is so. I ALSO trust BMW M engineers which decided to make M3 RWD, and NOT X-drive. < I believe there is a reason for that.
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