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      11-10-2010, 02:39 PM   #1
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Question Anyone bought a (new)condo (or townhouse)?

I am planning to buy a new condo soon, so I am looking for some suggestions or inputs.

For ppl that bought it used what would you have liked to change if you bought a new condo?

For ppl that bought it brand new, what upgrades did you get and didn't get and which did you regretted?

I am wondering if getting a stainless steel appliance upgrade is really worth it, I personally dont care about it if its painted white/black. But it might good of future value.

But all the faucets I would like it to be brushed nickel or similar that is not shinny stainless steel.

Living room - Laminate/Hardwood
Kitchen - Tiles
Cabinets- ???
Rooms - Carpeted (not sure what type but something not to thick)
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      11-10-2010, 03:29 PM   #2
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Bought a new condo in Toronto (CityPlace - Panorama).

The thing I would like to change...the layout. Some things just aren't in the greatest spots. As for the upgrades, I never got any. The upgrades are extremely pricey and if you can do it yourself or hire a contractor to do it, it'd be much cheaper.

When you buy a condo, there will be a lot of things you need to buy anyway like light fixtures (they don't come with them), curtains, furnishings, etc. You'll be surprised, they add up quickly!
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      11-10-2010, 04:05 PM   #3
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Thats what thought too, if I upgrade them my self such as the Stainless Steel appliance, I can find good deals and then sell the old/original ones.

I was wondering if some upgrades is "cheaper" because the condo should get a discount, but I guess not.

When I was at the model home I thought the light under the kitchen counter were included and I asked, but it wasn't and I thought the curtains comes with it as well.

Thats thing I don't want to get too excited with the upgrades cause I know I will still need to buy some stuff. I just don't like the idea of moving to a new place then start replacing some stuff.
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      11-10-2010, 04:06 PM   #4
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everything really depends on what you can afford and are willing to spend....spending more now on upgrades like hardwood floors, stainless steel appliances, upgraded kitchen cabinets..etc....makes your investment worth more in the long run when you want to sell...try to stay with neutral colours....
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      11-10-2010, 04:42 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MRQturbo View Post
everything really depends on what you can afford and are willing to spend....spending more now on upgrades like hardwood floors, stainless steel appliances, upgraded kitchen cabinets..etc....makes your investment worth more in the long run when you want to sell...try to stay with neutral colours....
I agree completely!
I just bought my first place, as did my buddy. Upgrades do add up, but remember, this is where you live! If something costs you 5gs but raises your resale value by at least 5gs then it was worth it and you got to live with nicer things (which we all love since we drive bmws)
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      11-10-2010, 05:10 PM   #6
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Some of the appliance upgrades are still crap, better off saving your money and buying yourself later and negotiating a good price. Upgrades through the builder are "easy", so even if they get a deal you're still paying a premium. I have a jacuzzi tub in my new place, used it once. Save your money there. My stainless appliances are kitchaid and finger print much less than the bottom of the line whirlpool stainless in my old condo (yes I know whirlpool and kitchaid are same parent company).

As for new condo's, are you familiar with "occupancy"? While it may not be a deal breaker it's something you should be aware of. Try to make sure your view will not be obstructed in the future (if it's good in the first place). For example my old place at Yonge and 401 should always have an obstructed view because it looks over the 401 and a $$$ residential neighbourhood. The other side of the building used to have a similar view before they put in another building. My friend at the Matrix downtown on the 35th floor facing north east has a GREAT view. Now 100m out his living room floor to ceiling windows will be another building.
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      11-10-2010, 05:26 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BRAISKI View Post
For ppl that bought it brand new, what upgrades did you get and didn't get and which did you regretted?
If you want something like hardwood floors, it is generally better to get them done when the unit is being built. I installed hardwood after the fact and, although I did a pretty good job and it was kind of fun (well, the first half of the job was fun) a lot of the finish around doorways and edging will not be as good as if it were installed as part of the original finishing process. Then again, lots of people never look in the corners.

If you're in a highrise condo, it might not be easy to do hardwood: it depends on the subfloor and/or if you have radiant heating.

Quote:
I am wondering if getting a stainless steel appliance upgrade is really worth it, I personally dont care about it if its painted white/black. But it might good of future value.
Why would you furnish your house for the next people who may or may not want to live in it? Get what you like; if and when you sell, the buyers may or may not like what you've installed and may or may not be willing to pay a premium for it, but you will 100% end up paying the depreciation on anything you get, whether or not you personally value or enjoy it.

Quote:
Living room - Laminate/Hardwood
Kitchen - Tiles
Cabinets- ???
Rooms - Carpeted (not sure what type but something not to thick)
From an installation point of view, click-lock laminate is much easier than nail-down hardwood (I've done both) but that's not an issue if you're having it built for you/ Modern high-quality laminate is almost as thick as hardwood (1/2" versus 3/4") and most people can't tell the difference. They're also about the same price, when you add in the required underlay for the laminate. I personally like the feel of hardwood better, but laminate is more consistent and more durable. I don't know about cheap laminate, though.

Tiles look nice, but they can chip if you drop something heavy (pots, pans?) on them, and no glassware will survive a fall on to ceramic. Also, it needs to be installed on a proper subfloor, or else the grout will crack as the floor shifts. But there aren't many other good kitchen options aside from vinyl tile or cushion flooring. You can do hardwood or laminate, but you have to be more careful about liquid spills.

For carpet, just be careful about the material. Wool is nice but can't be cleaned if stained. Nylon is much more durable. Beware of Olefin (most Berbers are apparently Olefin): I've read that it has a very low flashpoint and that dragging a heavy piece of furniture over it can sometimes generate enough heat to cause scorching.
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      11-11-2010, 11:12 AM   #8
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I have purchased 3 new condos and 1 new house and from my own personal experience the builder upgrades are expensive and of lesser quality. Take for example appliances, if you buy the upgrade from the builder they will give you the cheapest bulk order they can find. You can get much better on your own.

The same goes for faucets and all the other fixtures, cabinets, counter tops, vanities, plus the hardwood flooring etc...
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      11-11-2010, 12:21 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MovinUp View Post
Some of the appliance upgrades are still crap, better off saving your money and buying yourself later and negotiating a good price. Upgrades through the builder are "easy", so even if they get a deal you're still paying a premium. I have a jacuzzi tub in my new place, used it once. Save your money there. My stainless appliances are kitchaid and finger print much less than the bottom of the line whirlpool stainless in my old condo (yes I know whirlpool and kitchaid are same parent company).

As for new condo's, are you familiar with "occupancy"? While it may not be a deal breaker it's something you should be aware of. Try to make sure your view will not be obstructed in the future (if it's good in the first place). For example my old place at Yonge and 401 should always have an obstructed view because it looks over the 401 and a $$$ residential neighbourhood. The other side of the building used to have a similar view before they put in another building. My friend at the Matrix downtown on the 35th floor facing north east has a GREAT view. Now 100m out his living room floor to ceiling windows will be another building.
I agree with the appliances bit...my wife and I recent purchased a free hold town house and we took the money for the appliances and applied it to upgrades around the house...the appliances they were giving us were junk and we just went out and bought are own...when buying appliances check the manufacturers that offer rebates...also consider kenmore...kenmore appliances are just appliances from other vendors (i.e. GE, Frigidaire, Whirlpool.) Its actually very very easy to figure out which manufacturer kenmore is using (there are guides about it all over the internet.)
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      11-11-2010, 02:44 PM   #10
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I actually bought my appliances 7 months before closing and negotiated hard, then went in a few times to the retailer between purchase and closing and looked at the recent promotions and they changed the date on my receipt to suit the best promotions. For example fridge/stove/DW/OTR Microwave were let's say $8000 MSRP. I had negotiated to $6000. Then there was a deal for a free microwave with three appliances, that was another 1k off. Washer and dryer were 2200 MSRP, I paid 1800-400(after tax) rebate =~ 1450 (too lazy to calculate it), for maytag, 5.0cuft washer and 7cuft steam dryer front loaders.
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      11-11-2010, 03:24 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MovinUp View Post
I actually bought my appliances 7 months before closing and negotiated hard, then went in a few times to the retailer between purchase and closing and looked at the recent promotions and they changed the date on my receipt to suit the best promotions. For example fridge/stove/DW/OTR Microwave were let's say $8000 MSRP. I had negotiated to $6000. Then there was a deal for a free microwave with three appliances, that was another 1k off. Washer and dryer were 2200 MSRP, I paid 1800-400(after tax) rebate =~ 1450 (too lazy to calculate it), for maytag, 5.0cuft washer and 7cuft steam dryer front loaders.
Wow!!! That's really good to know there are retailers that do that.
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      11-11-2010, 10:27 PM   #12
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Thanks for the input guys! Keep them coming

Is it possible to tell them not to put appliances? I was just thinking if I can buy a bunch of them during a sale or something like boxing day. Where some of them are like 25-50% off.
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      11-11-2010, 10:39 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MovinUp View Post
I actually bought my appliances 7 months before closing and negotiated hard, then went in a few times to the retailer between purchase and closing and looked at the recent promotions and they changed the date on my receipt to suit the best promotions. For example fridge/stove/DW/OTR Microwave were let's say $8000 MSRP. I had negotiated to $6000. Then there was a deal for a free microwave with three appliances, that was another 1k off. Washer and dryer were 2200 MSRP, I paid 1800-400(after tax) rebate =~ 1450 (too lazy to calculate it), for maytag, 5.0cuft washer and 7cuft steam dryer front loaders.
Thats really interesting, which retailer is it?

I was thinking of when there is a big sale or something then go find a place to Price Match
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      11-11-2010, 11:36 PM   #14
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OK, I'll be the contrarian here... The only way I would buy a new condo in this market is at a substantial discount. Toronto is totally overbuilt, and we're just beginning a steady slide in the real estate market that might last for five years. Sales have gone down for the first time in about 20 years, although prices have yet to move. That is always a really bad sign in any market -- volume of transactions slows before prices fall.

The typical downpayment in Canada right now is 8%. Even the big banks (e.g. BMO) are calling for a fall in real estate prices nationally of at least 11%. The fall won't be as great in areas that haven't seen the same kind of price growth as Vancouver and Toronto, so you have to figure that these cities will see potentially larger falls, and condos will be hit harder than single family homes.

Remember, too, that in real estate the land has value; the building on top of it is a depreciating asset. Wonder why you're not buying an older condo? Because you don't want to, because many of them have major issues with poor construction leading to special assessments, because the reserve fund is tapped out, etc., etc. In 10-15 years, the same thing will be true of the buildings that are brand new today. Obviously houses have maintenance costs / issues, too, but people will always buy single family houses in central neighbourhoods of Toronto. On that note, the builder's upgrades are utterly worthless -- they'll add virtually nothing to the value of the condo, and don't think they aren't making significant margin on them.

Also, in Toronto condo fees tend to be ridiculously exorbitant. $800 / month in condo fees = nearly $200k in mortgage at the current five-year variable rate.

The days of flipping pre-sale condos for big profits are over, at least for the next little while. If you do buy, do so because you want to live there not because you think it's a great investment.

Anyway, that's my sky-is-falling rant for now. And this coming from someone who made nearly $300k on a condo townhouse I bought in Calgary in 2005 and sold in 2007. The same places in Calgary are now selling for $150k - $200k less than I sold for. In other words, the person who bought my place is screwed...
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      11-12-2010, 12:20 AM   #15
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We have purchased a bunch of homes over the years, and always gone with the builder upgrades....sure they cost a lot, but I find the finishing is the best, dont kno how to explain it but the hardwood runs the same direction in the whole house, and there are no breaks in between rooms which looks amazing IMO.
Also, the hassle of moving furniture and damage to walls after the fact is also a pain....although if you havent moved in yet, thats a different story.

Appliances+faucets+sinks and all the small things should be taken care of on your own though, but something as large as hardwood I think its best when its put in during building...

disclosure: Arista homes experience only
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      11-12-2010, 11:17 AM   #16
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Find an agent who deals with condo builders and can get VIP pricing. I disagree with aspiring's real estate rant. If u buy the right unit in the right location the condo market is still quite profitable especially when buying pre-construction. If your looking for an agent Braiski, pm me and I'll refer someone who knows what they're doing. And I'd not do the upgrades. Do it yourself slowly. Unless your buying a house.
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      11-12-2010, 01:30 PM   #17
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In some ways I see the condo as investment. The thing is that for the past 6 yrs I have been renting! I was happy with it since I don't pay much and had a lot of extra/play money.

The housing situation here in Waterloo is slightly different. There are 2 Universities, 1 Collage, Manulife and RIM is here. Thats only Waterloo where it is still a small city but its growing rapidly.

Luca thanks for the off for an agent bu I already have one...

I was at Home Depot I was checking their faucets and appliances, kitchen counter lighting and I think some of the their prices are very good esp for the ones that are on sale.

The only thing that is stopping me is what mohammadz said the hassle and risk of damaging the flooring or walls. However I will surely have time to do some stuff before I move in.
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      11-12-2010, 03:20 PM   #18
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Aspiring made some good points but consider this example:

Manhattan.

In the early 90s, properties in Manhattan and the rest of NYC were worthless.

For those youn'gns out there, you may not know this but a 1 bedroom apartment near Times Square sold for $98,000 (in 1990-1991) This was after Real Estate CRASHED both in Canada and the USA. Donald Trump almost went bankrupt? If you do not believe me, check out his autobiography.

Today, That same apartment/condo is over 30-35 years old and is worth nearly $1,000,000. (Even with the slow down in the US economy.)

Why? It's New York City, and the demand out lasts the supply. Simple economics.

Condo investors in Toronto, most of the smart ones at least, are banking on the long term.

IMHO, Short-term flipping has indeed slowed down for now. For a lot of people though condo investing is for the long term.

Also, in Toronto, condo prices have already dropped. In fact new developments are offering lower prices because even the developers realize that there are to many units out there. However, eventually the Condo boom will end. Either we as consumers will stop buying, Toronto becomes the crappiest city to live in or the builders just run out of room to build. The best scenario is the NYC example. No where to build, lots of jobs/opportunity in Toronto, increased immigration. High Demand, Low Supply makes the condo investors of today winners.



Also, Vancouver has historically always been more expensive. Even in the 80s and 90s. The supply has never kept up with demand. In downtown Vancouver, the supply will always be low because from what I can tell (after visiting there so many friggn times) there is hardly any more room to build in the city. Vancouverites, please correct me....

Also, another thing about Vancouver...the city itself doesn't have a big population. The actual City of Vancouver's population is less then Mississaugas. What makes Vancouver the 2nd or 3rd populated city is the surrounding areas (i.e. North Van, West Van, Richmond, Burnaby, Couquitlam (sp?) etc etc.)

The above is based on my research, opinions. if you disagree you disagree or please correct me on anything you feel is incorrect.
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      11-12-2010, 07:05 PM   #19
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Vancouver downtown has a lot of new condos and even luxurious one like Shangrila, The Private Residences (will be done by next year), Fairmont Waterfront, TV Tower (near GM/Rogers Place). Moreover, poeple are building like crazy as well in Burnaby area and Surrey and Coquitlam (town-houses).
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      11-12-2010, 08:50 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BavFan_08 View Post
Aspiring made some good points but consider this example:

Manhattan.

In the early 90s, properties in Manhattan and the rest of NYC were worthless.

For those youn'gns out there, you may not know this but a 1 bedroom apartment near Times Square sold for $98,000 (in 1990-1991) This was after Real Estate CRASHED both in Canada and the USA. Donald Trump almost went bankrupt? If you do not believe me, check out his autobiography.

Today, That same apartment/condo is over 30-35 years old and is worth nearly $1,000,000. (Even with the slow down in the US economy.)

Why? It's New York City, and the demand out lasts the supply. Simple economics.

Condo investors in Toronto, most of the smart ones at least, are banking on the long term.

IMHO, Short-term flipping has indeed slowed down for now. For a lot of people though condo investing is for the long term.

Also, in Toronto, condo prices have already dropped. In fact new developments are offering lower prices because even the developers realize that there are to many units out there. However, eventually the Condo boom will end. Either we as consumers will stop buying, Toronto becomes the crappiest city to live in or the builders just run out of room to build. The best scenario is the NYC example. No where to build, lots of jobs/opportunity in Toronto, increased immigration. High Demand, Low Supply makes the condo investors of today winners.



Also, Vancouver has historically always been more expensive. Even in the 80s and 90s. The supply has never kept up with demand. In downtown Vancouver, the supply will always be low because from what I can tell (after visiting there so many friggn times) there is hardly any more room to build in the city. Vancouverites, please correct me....

Also, another thing about Vancouver...the city itself doesn't have a big population. The actual City of Vancouver's population is less then Mississaugas. What makes Vancouver the 2nd or 3rd populated city is the surrounding areas (i.e. North Van, West Van, Richmond, Burnaby, Couquitlam (sp?) etc etc.)

The above is based on my research, opinions. if you disagree you disagree or please correct me on anything you feel is incorrect.

Partially true I think. In core downtown Toronto areas like Cityplace, there really is no place to build since the real estate has all been snapped up by commercial buildings or condo developers (maybe just undeveloped though).

And in my opinion, the only reason why condo prices have dropped lately is because of the last recession. Remember developers want ALL units sold out before they finish construction. They use the downpayments to pay for the construction. So if they can't sell them all off, they'll lower the price. There was a lot of construction going on when the recession was around so those investors got the discounts. Now when they sell, they can lower the price and still make money. If they all sell at once, it temporarily lowers the price in the market. (supply and demand of finished units)

In my building, I'm probably one of the 10% in an owner-occupied suite. 90% of the owners are investors looking either to rent, sell short-term, or rent and then sell after a year or two. When the economy goes down, these investors will tend to hold onto their cash as opposed to taking a financial risk of buying property that they might not be able to resell.

Give it a year or two and I think Toronto downtown condo prices will keep climbing up.
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      11-12-2010, 10:40 PM   #21
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Down by cityplace they're putting in condo's where parking lots used to be. just nuts.
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      11-17-2010, 02:44 PM   #22
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Some of the things I have been thinking and I don't like is that if I want an upgraded appliance I just don't like the idea of paying interest on that for 25 yrs!

Also a co-worker suggested to check out those scratch and dent places they have a good deal. Esp if the scratch/dent is on the side where no one will ever see it unless you put out the stove/fridge etc...
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