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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > STETT Performance Stage 2 Oil Cooler Kit w/ 180F Thermostat **EXTENSIVE REVIEW/DIY**



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      12-05-2010, 02:15 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbass524 View Post
My service advisor told me this. He was in Germany for a vacation and a friend of his is a BMW engineer over there. They had a talk about this as my SA was curious how the European cars can run on the Autobahn at 5000+ RPM and not overheat.

Just relaying what I was told.

Additionally, I think he said the cars run richer over there also.
You may very well be right, I was just wondering why my temps were always so hot then.

But on the other hand I have actually driven my car from Salzburg, Austria, over Munich to Rostock in Germany (578 miles with an average speed of 116 mph according to my GPS) and I was basically above 5000 rpm for 5 straight hours of driving. Only stopped twice to fuel The oil temp never went above 255, but it never really went any lower than 250 either. It was about in about 80F weather.
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      12-05-2010, 02:20 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G.I.Joe View Post
You may very well be right, I was just wondering why my temps were always so hot then.

But on the other hand I have actually driven my car from Salzburg, Austria, over Munich to Rostock in Germany (578 miles with an average speed of 116 mph according to my GPS) and I was basically above 5000 rpm for 5 straight hours of driving. Only stopped twice to fuel The oil temp never went above 255, but it never really went any lower than 250 either. It was about in about 80F weather.
Your temps on the drive to Austria are what my SA said was normal for European cars.
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      12-05-2010, 02:24 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbass524 View Post
Your temps on the drive to Austria are what my SA said was normal for European cars.
Well, you're probably right then, and if so, the STETT oil cooler/thermostat kit makes a lot of sense I suppose.
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      12-05-2010, 02:25 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbass524 View Post
My service advisor told me this. He was in Germany for a vacation and a friend of his is a BMW engineer over there. They had a talk about this as my SA was curious how the European cars can run on the Autobahn at 5000+ RPM and not overheat.

Just relaying what I was told.

Additionally, I think he said the cars run richer over there also.
Engine speed and power aren't the same thing. If I run 0 boost at 5000rpm, the heat generated is significantly lower than if I'm under full load and boosting 15psi. So yeah, your running temps will be lower at cruise then at full load because you're not making any where near the same power. Also, when running at the same engine speed at higher road speeds, the air flow through the oil cooler is higher, also helping in maintaining oil temps.
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      12-05-2010, 03:57 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by c4s335i View Post
Engine speed and power aren't the same thing. If I run 0 boost at 5000rpm, the heat generated is significantly lower than if I'm under full load and boosting 15psi. So yeah, your running temps will be lower at cruise then at full load because you're not making any where near the same power. Also, when running at the same engine speed at higher road speeds, the air flow through the oil cooler is higher, also helping in maintaining oil temps.
BINGO!

Now add the fact that the vast majority of people here are interested in turning their BMW into a drag strip sledge hammer (living their lives a quarter mile at a time ) and I can easily see how some cars will run hotter than others.

I've NEVER seen my oil temps rise above 240F and that includes stop-and-go traffic jams in downtown Chicago in 90F+ summers and high humidity!
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      12-05-2010, 05:03 PM   #94
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I saw this for those of you wanting a higher thermostat temp. This opens at 215 and is IIRC the same price as that offered from Stett.

http://www.cantonracingproducts.com/...ion&key=22-480
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      12-05-2010, 05:15 PM   #95
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Great DIY/review FBIS, extremely informative as usual...
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      12-05-2010, 05:26 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by c4s335i View Post
There is no logic in saying BMW wants scorching hot temps, and no one has suggested that. And 220, 250, 270 isn't scorching hot for oil. 300? Now that's way too hot. Since you stated a real fact about oil being rated at 215+, that should also suggest that you don't want the oil temp to operate below that point. Most racers will see much higher oil temps on track 260-270F range, and yes the oil is designed to run in that range. What I'm talking about is everyday driving temps. They should not be 50degress below what BMW designed.
Where is your sourcing? Every other vehicle out their aside from BMW has their oil temps in the same operating range as coolant 180-200 daily. Google it if you must. These people are peaking 220-240 on track days with those other vehicles. Yet for some reason this magical BMW engine likes to daily at 240 and thats ok?

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Originally Posted by c4s335i View Post
Normal oil doesn't like temps beyond 260, they began to break down. Synthetics can typically stand up to 300F, not that I would recommend it. Bottom line is track oil temps are not driving around town oil temps, so again it's the upper range we are concerned with.

Also, keep in mind the cylinders and cylinder heads are completely water jacketed, meaning that water temp has the greatest effect on combustion efficiency, not oil temp. Which is another point as to why dropping the oil 50degrees isn't a great idea. Although the oil is being used to cool the surface of the piston, that's mostly to keep the piston from melting at the 1500F+ EGTs that this engine can see. The oil is also not being used to cool the turbos, water is. So if you want the engine to run cooler, change your water thermostat. The biggest (not the only) concern with oil temp is making sure it doesn't get so it hot that it starts to break down.
For some reason you keep quoting me as if im wrong somewhere. I understand all of this. However there is still NO REASON to have 240 oil temps daily driving. Again. NO REASON.

Last edited by Jeff@TopGearSolutions; 12-05-2010 at 05:41 PM.
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      12-06-2010, 06:34 AM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbass524 View Post
This looks very nice and the diffuser plus additional exiting is vital. Nice job.

FYI, The European models thermostat opens at 190ish.
jbass524, thanks for the compliments.

The euro thermostat is a very interesting piece of info. I still think the high oil temps on the US N54 may have something to do with emissions, but I have zero evidence to support that theory.
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      12-06-2010, 06:47 AM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxnix View Post
Well, not quite. One has to realize that the condensation is circulated until the oil reaches 212 F at sea level. Under this temperature, condensate flows to your bearings and rings, which is not a good thing. Probably why BMW set their thermostat as they did.

Also, it speaks to the long term wear advantage of achieving operating temperature before, well, operating the engine under load.

Sometimes the OEM engine designers know better.
I understand the logic to what you are saying, but if it is true then why do other manufacturers keep much, much colder oil temperatures? I don't think there is a single performance guy on this forum running oil for 10k miles. We also have tons of guys running water/methanol too, so oil changes are common every 3k miles. I am willing to concede that I might want to try a different oil weight and brand. Any suggestions?

I think we just find a lot of people on this forum that say BMW is smarter. If BMW is so smart, then why didn't they include the oil cooler on the early models then back track? Why is BMW trying to make the 1M run colder? Why did BMW put an absolute piece of garbage intercooler on this car? Why can't BMW make a HPFP that works? Why do the injectors constantly fail? I am sorry, but to me BMW doesn't look so smart at times.
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      12-06-2010, 06:52 AM   #99
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Great DIY/review FBIS, extremely informative as usual...
dzenno, thanks my friend! I am glad you enjoyed the read.
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      12-06-2010, 07:43 AM   #100
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As usual on real oem the thermostat are all rated the same so can someone please confirm euro model open at 190? I dont think this is the case. I have 2 oil coolers and my temps go up to 245 - 250 and stay there on hard driving. They would never reach those levels if the thermostat was on 190.
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      12-06-2010, 07:45 AM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enrita View Post
As usual on real oem the thermostat are all rated the same so can someone please confirm euro model open at 190? I dont think this is the case. I have 2 oil coolers and my temps go up to 245 - 250 and stay there on hard driving. They would never reach those levels if the thermostat was on 190.
Thanks enrita.
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      12-06-2010, 08:17 AM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Former_Boosted_IS View Post
I understand the logic to what you are saying, but if it is true then why do other manufacturers keep much, much colder oil temperatures? I don't think there is a single performance guy on this forum running oil for 10k miles. We also have tons of guys running water/methanol too, so oil changes are common every 3k miles. I am willing to concede that I might want to try a different oil weight and brand. Any suggestions?

I think we just find a lot of people on this forum that say BMW is smarter. If BMW is so smart, then why didn't they include the oil cooler on the early models then back track? Why is BMW trying to make the 1M run colder? Why did BMW put an absolute piece of garbage intercooler on this car? Why can't BMW make a HPFP that works? Why do the injectors constantly fail? I am sorry, but to me BMW doesn't look so smart at times.
Agreed, Im am trying to talk to Chad about just ordering the thermostat and he hasnt gotten back to me yet. I too have a second oil cooler and the temps usually stay around 220 and when I run it hard it goes up to 240 and stops. I would like to bump that down to 200ish daily and 220max. Let me know if these are similar to your results after driving a couple days FBIS. Nice install. I wish I had seen this before I put my AR kit in. They gave no directions and the fitment was a CUSTOM job to say the least. I will post some pics after I get it back tonight.
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      12-06-2010, 08:37 AM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JPSlick View Post
Where is your sourcing? Every other vehicle out their aside from BMW has their oil temps in the same operating range as coolant 180-200 daily. Google it if you must. These people are peaking 220-240 on track days with those other vehicles. Yet for some reason this magical BMW engine likes to daily at 240 and thats ok?


For some reason you keep quoting me as if im wrong somewhere. I understand all of this. However there is still NO REASON to have 240 oil temps daily driving. Again. NO REASON.
Sourcing... People who track their cars making similar power, other various race boards, etc... I'm not saying that you can't run it lower. I'm suggesting you shouldn't run it that much lower, if the factory didn't design it for that. In fact, why are people so worried about using a specific grade of engine that BMW specifies if none of this matters? I'm also suggesting that there is no appreciable benefit in dropping the temps that much. If I can run consistent oil temps at 230 - 240 range in all conditions with the stock thermostat, why go to the trouble of buying an external thermostat? Especially when I won't notice any appreciable affect on the street. Look, if you want to buy an external thermostat knock yourself out. I just think it's pointless.
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      12-06-2010, 08:43 AM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enrita View Post
As usual on real oem the thermostat are all rated the same so can someone please confirm euro model open at 190? I dont think this is the case. I have 2 oil coolers and my temps go up to 245 - 250 and stay there on hard driving. They would never reach those levels if the thermostat was on 190.
Actually they would, and that's my point. Opening temp only affects the lowest range the oil can operate before it goes throw the oil coolers. After that heat extraction is determined by the efficiency and heat extraction capabilities of the oil cooler setup. Granted if your oil cooler was 10 times larger, you could probably guarantee it wouldn't make it past oil opening temp, but in the typical setups found they should go up to the 240-250 range in hard driving.
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      12-06-2010, 08:48 AM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by c4s335i View Post
Sourcing... People who track their cars making similar power, other various race boards, etc... I'm not saying that you can't run it lower. I'm suggesting you shouldn't run it that much lower, if the factory didn't design it for that. In fact, why are people so worried about using a specific grade of engine that BMW specifies if none of this matters? I'm also suggesting that there is no appreciable benefit in dropping the temps that much. If I can run consistent oil temps at 230 - 240 range in all conditions with the stock thermostat, why go to the trouble of buying an external thermostat? Especially when I won't notice any appreciable affect on the street. Look, if you want to buy an external thermostat knock yourself out. I just think it's pointless.
I just don't understand where your info is coming from that says 260F oil temperatures are ok? I really don't understand. If BMW designed the car to run oil temps that high, then why are they trying to get the 1M to run cooler?

You have made your point and many don't agree. This is a review I worked very on and I collected extensive data with an extensive DIY. Honestly, it is not fair that you are muddying it with your opinion. I am not trying to be rude at all, but maybe a new thread for you would be better?
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      12-06-2010, 08:58 AM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by c4s335i View Post
Actually they would, and that's my point. Opening temp only affects the lowest range the oil can operate before it goes throw the oil coolers. After that heat extraction is determined by the efficiency and heat extraction capabilities of the oil cooler setup. Granted if your oil cooler was 10 times larger, you could probably guarantee it wouldn't make it past oil opening temp, but in the typical setups found they should go up to the 240-250 range in hard driving.
You missed the fact i have 2 oil coolers .... My car would not go up that high if the thermostat was set lower. Also you might not know this but the oem piston / thermostat does not seal 100% and sends all the oil through the oil cooler but most of it goes back into the engine and only part of it through the OC.
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      12-06-2010, 09:12 AM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Former_Boosted_IS View Post
I just don't understand where your info is coming from that says 260F oil temperatures are ok? I really don't understand. If BMW designed the car to run oil temps that high, then why are they trying to get the 1M to run cooler?

You have made your point and many don't agree. This is a review I worked very on and I collected extensive data with an extensive DIY. Honestly, it is not fair that you are muddying it with your opinion. I am not trying to be rude at all, but maybe a new thread for you would be better?
Here's my biggest concern. From a PROcede autotuning perspective... Do you honestly think that's it's better for the ECU to tune timing/boost for an oil temp range of 60 - 80 degrees, or a smaller 10-20 degree range? Because if you running WOT for 30 minutes with high boost, believe me your temps will be no where near 180F. There's something about exposing oil to turbo bearings when the turbine EGTs are 1500+F that doesn't allow that to happen. I just believe that consistent oil temps are much better from a tuning perspective, than having them swing such a large range. I just don't see what advantage you hope to get at running the oil temp that much lower. If you do see something, please let me know. I would be glad to hear what you find.

And 260 is an upper range I would comfortable with running a car's oil temp on the track at, not what I would want it to be running at all the time. The heat range specs of oil I threw out are from oil viscosity/temp sites, look them up yourself. Synthetics have no problem running under 270F, with 300F being the upper limit.

Sorry if you think I'm dissing your post. That was certainly not my intention. The writeup was excellent and I'm sure you are enjoying your modification. I only ever questioned the thermostat set point, and this is where we've ended up. My only goal was to have people think about the side effects of changing certain aspects of their car. Kinda like why use a BOV just for sound? Not that there's anything wrong with that, it's just not for me.

Here's one link regarding a race engine and oil operating temps... should be mid way down:
http://www.brgracing.com/legendsContent.html

Last edited by c4s335i; 12-06-2010 at 09:45 AM. Reason: Link added..
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      12-06-2010, 09:20 AM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enrita View Post
You missed the fact i have 2 oil coolers .... My car would not go up that high if the thermostat was set lower. Also you might not know this but the oem piston / thermostat does not seal 100% and sends all the oil through the oil cooler but most of it goes back into the engine and only part of it through the OC.
I would think if you ran it long it would. Meaning if you ran for 30minutes on the track at WOT, eventually they would get up there. The only point of thermostat is to set the lower threshold, it shouldn't effect the max possible temperature, granted if you started at 180F, it would take much longer to reach the 240F range. Especially considering how much oil these cars hold.
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      12-06-2010, 09:58 AM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by c4s335i View Post
Here's my biggest concern. From a PROcede autotuning perspective... Do you honestly think that's it's better for the ECU to tune timing/boost for an oil temp range of 60 - 80 degrees, or a smaller 10-20 degree range? Because if you running WOT for 30 minutes with high boost, believe me your temps will be no where near 180F. There's something about exposing oil to turbo bearings when the turbine EGTs are 1500+F that doesn't allow that to happen. I just believe that consistent oil temps are much better from a tuning perspective, than having them swing such a large range. I just don't see what advantage you hope to get at running the oil temp that much lower. If you do see something, please let me know. I would be glad to hear what you find.

And 260 is an upper range I would comfortable with running a car's oil temp on the track at, not what I would want it to be running at all the time. The heat range specs of oil I threw out are from oil viscosity/temp sites, look them up yourself. Synthetics have no problem running under 270F, with 300F being the upper limit.

Sorry if you think I'm dissing your post. That was certainly not my intention. The writeup was excellent and I'm sure you are enjoying your modification. I only ever questioned the thermostat set point, and this is where we've ended up. My only goal was to have people think about the side effects of changing certain aspects of their car. Kinda like why use a BOV just for sound? Not that there's anything wrong with that, it's just not for me.

Here's one link regarding a race engine and oil operating temps... should be mid way down:
http://www.brgracing.com/legendsContent.html

Look, you made you point. Start a new thread if you want to discuss optimum oil temperatures. This a review and DIY for people to read. This should not be a flame war on what you think our oil temps should be.
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      12-07-2010, 02:12 PM   #110
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Another extensive and perfect illustrated DIY from Fb again
I realy injoy reading your reviews and they have been great help for me, thank you keep it up
I have a request would it be possible to post direct links to all your DIY/reviews at the buttom of your post where people normaly have all their mod listed, would great.

Ive been considering mounting an extra oilcooler myself but seeing the size of that core one should do.

Just a thought have you looked into Marcal B thread about foglights delets he installed the ducts from the 335is, I now you have the standart bumper where as he has the m-kit I think it could be able to fit with a bit of trimming getting more of the core exposed to air should help it perform even better.
With your knowhow and expertise you could proberbly find a good looking mesh grill to cover the hole.
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...ighlight=ducts
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