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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > All Aluminum Performance Radiator



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      12-08-2010, 02:23 PM   #1
tibra1
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All Aluminum Performance Radiator

Hey guys,

For those out there with highly tuned cars making alot of power..Im sure u know how the high oil and water temps are holding you back..Many have upgraded the oil coolers or added additional oil coolers with some good results..but to really take it a step further you gotta think about water cooling..

I have been a little frustrated by the fact that there are almost no vendors selling a performance radiator for the 335i that features a better core, aluminum end tanks and a bigger capacity.

So I am putting this out as a feeler..I am working with the guys over at Wizard Cooling who have expressed interest in designing an all aluminum performance radiator for the 335i.

http://www.wizardcooling.com/

All these guys do is high performance radiators..and they have done several for BMWs. They are located in upstate NY and Scott is one of the nicest guys to deal with.

Attached are some pdf's showing how they use CAD 3D to help in radiator design..additionally they have purchased the actual OEM hardware as a template to begin designing. (see PDF files below)

I think this a win win situation for all involved if it goes to market..b/c we finally get a product we want and need, at a "reasonable" price..and Wizard Cooling can break into a relatively untapped area of BMW e92 performance tuning.

My question for you is..how many of you would be SERIOUSLY interested to jump on board and get one of these radiators..I am trying to provide Scott with an idea of how many folks are interested.. so he can decide on how aggressively him and his design team are going to pursue it.

Please let me know..THX

1-949-500 Assembly.pdf

1-2285-100 Assembly.pdf
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      12-08-2010, 02:30 PM   #2
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I think there is a huge market if the price point is realistic.

<= $500 = a zillion customers

>= $1000 = good luck with that...chumps only need apply


Building a radiator with better heat exchange than the stocker is not too hard, but that performance needs to be provable. Once you've got that covered, it will really just come down to price.
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      12-08-2010, 02:39 PM   #3
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Well you say you want a reasonable price AND proven testing results..any type of substantial testing is going to increase the price per unit..so just keep that in mind..

With regards to price they will defintely be reasonable in comparision to whats out there now..but for now myself and the guys at Wizard are trying to gauge serious interest first
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      12-08-2010, 02:59 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slidewayz View Post
I think there is a huge market if the price point is realistic.

<= $500 = a zillion customers

>= $1000 = good luck with that...chumps only need apply


Building a radiator with better heat exchange than the stocker is not too hard, but that performance needs to be provable. Once you've got that covered, it will really just come down to price.
+1000 if your guys are looking for an interest gauge and what the community would for I think slidewayz hit it on the head...500$ you got a winner anything more than that looks like the BMW tax is added...
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      12-08-2010, 03:04 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by possible335i2008 View Post
+1000 if your guys are looking for an interest gauge and what the community would for I think slidewayz hit it on the head...500$ you got a winner anything more than that looks like the BMW tax is added...
Totally with you on that ..I should just add that these guys only use cores and materials manufactured 100% in the USA..so no worries there
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      12-08-2010, 03:08 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slidewayz View Post
I think there is a huge market if the price point is realistic.

<= $300 = a zillion customers

>= $1000 = good luck with that...chumps only need apply


Building a radiator with better heat exchange than the stocker is not too hard, but that performance needs to be provable. Once you've got that covered, it will really just come down to price.
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      12-08-2010, 03:12 PM   #7
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Given that the OEM radiator is $350..does that seem realistic?..LOL

But seriously I know price is the #1 priority here..for me too..and all I can say at this point is it will be "reasonable"...in comparison to others..obvioulsy the reason for me putting this out here is to gauge interest..its a simple formula..the more serious buyers out there the lower the cost per unit..
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      12-08-2010, 03:20 PM   #8
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I have the AR Design radiator installed in my car since about September and am very happy with it. After the slight design faults had been worked out, it's an amazing piece of work and very well made, fits perfectly where the stock radiator is.

I agree that it is not cheap, but a lot of work went into it to make it fit perfectly in the very tight engine bay of our car, and only high quality materials were used, as quite a number of people attested to who had a look at it when it was being installed. I'm very glad AR Design offers this for our cars, and am more than willing to pay for their R&D by buying their products. I know I get excellent quality, and that is worth for me much more than saving some bucks (even some hundreds) and having a bigger chance of later having issues with it.

Still, keep in mind that this is really only useful for people who take highly modified cars to the race track. During driving - even very spirited driving - on public roads you will not have any issues with water temps. The first problem of the N54 is with its oil temperatures, and an additional or larger oil cooler will help with that more easily than a bigger radiator (although the latter also has an - indirect - impact on oil temps).

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      12-08-2010, 03:29 PM   #9
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Hi Alpina..I am very happy you chimed in here..as I know you have the AR and had issues with it..I myself wanted to get it as well, but it is just simply not available at the moment per the guys at AR design..

Keep in mind a larger more efficent water radiator will directly impact oil temps..I know of some members who are tracking with the OEM oil cooler and an upgraded radiator that have seen very stable oil temps as a result...Now I agree with you, if u do not have any type of oil cooler than either an OEM retrofit or aftermarket cooler is in order..but upgrading the water radiator has to be treated with equal if not greater importance..once u cool the water the oil temps will follow suit.
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      12-08-2010, 03:39 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tibra1 View Post
Given that the OEM radiator is $350..does that seem realistic?..LOL

But seriously I know price is the #1 priority here..for me too..and all I can say at this point is it will be "reasonable"...in comparison to others..obvioulsy the reason for me putting this out here is to gauge interest..its a simple formula..the more serious buyers out there the lower the cost per unit..
It cost 350, but is worth 350? Probably not! Just cuz we drive a BMW doesn't mean we shit money. Just don't rape the community in prices and I'm sure you'll get some love.
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      12-08-2010, 03:51 PM   #11
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Quote:
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It cost 350, but is worth 350? Probably not! Just cuz we drive a BMW doesn't mean we shit money. Just don't rape the community in prices and I'm sure you'll get some love.

I guess you can make that argument for just about every hi-performance piece for our cars..my buddy just picked up a set of downpipes for his '04 G35..cost him $250..mine cost $700..it sucks but its just a fact of life with these cars..

Petition the gov't for socialized car modding..
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      12-08-2010, 04:39 PM   #12
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There's a couple things to think about...
Is it really necessary for spiritted driving?
In my experience, the answer has been no.

If we had a mechanical water pump or a 1 speed pump then the answer would be yes.
Our water pumps strive to reach 4 temp targets. The harder you run the engine, the harder the pump pumps.
There is another vendor that sells the radiator and I was thinking of getting it until I went to Buttonwillow in the summer time and reaslized that I didn't need it.
The only reason that I can see where this radiator would be a necessity is tracking the car in 100+ temps longer than 30 minutes.
I went to Buttonwillow and ran 20 minutes sessions in 94 degree weather and the water temps were exactly wwhere they should have been.
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      12-08-2010, 04:43 PM   #13
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Quote:
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There's a couple things to think about...
Is it really necessary for spiritted driving?
In my experience, the answer has been no.

If we had a mechanical water pump or a 1 speed pump then the answer would be yes.
Our water pumps strive to reach 4 temp targets. The harder you run the engine, the harder the pump pumps.
There is another vendor that sells the radiator and I was thinking of getting it until I went to Buttonwillow in the summer time and reaslized that I didn't need it.
The only reason that I can see where this radiator would be a necessity is tracking the car in 100+ temps longer than 30 minutes.
I went to Buttonwillow and ran 20 minutes sessions in 94 degree weather and the water temps were exactly wwhere they should have been.

How about your oil temps?..Im guessing you have upgraded oil cooler?
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      12-08-2010, 04:53 PM   #14
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Quote:
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How about your oil temps?..Im guessing you have upgraded oil cooler?
Yes I have and I believe that's a much more important mod than the radiator.
The oil pump is not a 4 temp target pump so by upgrading the OC, you will see a much more noticeable difference rather than going with a bigger radiator.
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      12-08-2010, 05:21 PM   #15
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Most of us probably don't need an upgraded radiator in normal driving (whatever "Normal" is in a 335i), but if we discover the 335i OEM radiator starts to suffer the same failures the 540s experienced there will be a market.

I went through 3 OEM radiators during the 1st 3 yrs I owned my 99 540 sport. All failed at the upper neck of the damn plastic radiator frames. Finally install the Zionville all-aluminum radiator with greater capacity and electric fan. Expensive, but worth it in my case.
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      12-08-2010, 07:19 PM   #16
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Thats another reason..those plastic end tanks dont withstand the heat very well.
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      12-08-2010, 08:07 PM   #17
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Eventhough the pump has 4 target temps, it could be very useful at decreasing the load on the pump by lowering the prepump temp...know what I'm saying? Also, it could be needed more so once the single turbokits come out and people start making more power. Just a thought. I'd buy one if they were $500 or under and I ha some money! Hahaha
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      12-09-2010, 02:17 PM   #18
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Doesnt seem to be much interest then?,..the general consensus is if its around $500 people would be inclined to pick one up...
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      12-10-2010, 04:03 AM   #19
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If it was $350 I would buy one as one of those "why the hell not?" purchases. Many other members would do the same as well. For me, my car is fast enough and I want reliability for when I track it so my money will be going toward more suspension goodies (already have coils/camber plates and sway) so I want lsd, oil cooler (stett), and a radiator

Longevity is key

If its $450 or over not a chance as I have tracked my car in 90F weather and my water temps never went over 220 while my oil approached 300F (290 to be exact and I took a cool down) in a 25min session
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