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      12-10-2010, 01:50 AM   #1
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Procede v5 vs Alpha JB4 on a closed track

One of my friend just got an Alpha JB4 unit. Our cars are EXACTLY the same. Same color exterior , interior. WE BOTH have 6AT Performance mods are the same Intake, Axleback exhaust, except he has JB4 i have Procede V5. He has his snow tires on while i have my summers on in this 23 degree weather. The only difference between our cars is that I have a full coilover / m front suspension and a LSD. But at a 60 MPH the LSD does not kick in. We did two pulls on a closed track. One with him being on map 2 I believe and me being on map 1 with a max boost of 14.5
Run 1: 3rd Gear Pull from 60-120. We were both Neck to neck at 120. at 120 he was gaining an inch but nothing noticeable.

Then I switched to map 2(16 psi) and he switched to map 7(16.5 psi but he has max global boost set to 16).
Run 2: 3rd gear pull from 50-130. Neck to neck till 130. (NOTE WE both did pulls in between to allow for adaptations when switching maps).

We were not shocked at all. Our cars are exactly similar and are running the same amount of boost.
Cheers =)
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      12-10-2010, 01:53 AM   #2
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nice! 6mt or 6at?
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      12-10-2010, 01:55 AM   #3
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Both have 6AT!
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      12-10-2010, 01:55 AM   #4
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not in the least bit surprised since both have similar boost targeting now.
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      12-10-2010, 01:59 AM   #5
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that's awesome!
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      12-10-2010, 02:03 AM   #6
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if they both have boost targetting now and running the same power levels etc,

then why before on the jb3 they would pull crazy on procede cars.. When the jb3 wouldn't have Boost Targetting???
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      12-10-2010, 02:15 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GotBoost? View Post
if they both have boost targetting now and running the same power levels etc,

then why before on the jb3 they would pull crazy on procede cars.. When the jb3 wouldn't have Boost Targetting???
rev.2 wasn't out two years ago. Different ballgame now.
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      12-10-2010, 02:26 AM   #8
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I wonder if snow tires affect the performance at all?
Thanks for sharing, also make sure you report back when he has the official JB4.
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      12-10-2010, 02:37 AM   #9
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Now compare average knock with both cars
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      12-10-2010, 03:23 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
Now compare average knock with both cars
Shiv, assuming both cars are running 17 PSI on good fuel and the JB car knocks more. How much more boost can the Procede run without getting more knocks than the JB car? A ruff estimation will do.
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      12-10-2010, 04:57 AM   #11
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Its the same knock and for 99% of users it is not a issue so long as you follow the fricken directions and contact terry before upping anything and he gets back to you in 2 min any time of the day or year.

Also I ran high maps with no issues what so ever or knock codes as have many other users.
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      12-10-2010, 05:17 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R1000K3 View Post
Shiv, assuming both cars are running 17 PSI on good fuel and the JB car knocks more. How much more boost can the Procede run without getting more knocks than the JB car? A ruff estimation will do.
The absolute boost delta will depend on conditions/fuel. The better the conditions/fuel, the less boost delta. But it's easy enough for any Procede user to test in their given environment. With a degree of testing control, log aggression (which is essentially a corected value for average knock at max load/wot) at the normal autotuned ignition corretion. And then do the same runs, at the same boost level, but with ignition correction set to zero (a la jb4).

For reference, us 91oct guys, running just 14-15psi will see average knock ramp quickly from the default autotuning target of ~2 to a very aggressive 4-5 once timing correction is eliminated. Which would be 2 to 2.5 times more knock retard. Which is unfortunate when that is considered normal operating. The next step in the test is to go back to running normal ignition correction and raise boost until aggression climbs to this 4-5. You'll probably see that the Procede can run 1-2psi more boost, with the same average knock, than a it did when it simply raised boost with no ignition retard.

If anyone still, to this day, believes that proactive ignition retard has no effect on knock activity and engine safety margin, they are seriously deluded or just uneducated on basic engine tuning fundamentals. Running a tune without any form of ignition setpoint limiting is less desirable than running one with it. This is fact and can be proven with hard data by anyone with a CAN logging tool. Ignoring evidence and arguing otherwise only displays a lack of understanding or misinformed positive thinking.

Last edited by shiv@vishnu; 12-10-2010 at 05:25 AM.
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      12-10-2010, 05:34 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
The absolute boost delta will depend on conditions/fuel. The better the conditions/fuel, the less boost delta. But it's easy enough for any Procede user to test in their given environment. With a degree of testing control, log aggression (which is essentially a corected value for average knock at max load/wot) at the normal autotuned ignition corretion. And then do the same runs, at the same boost level, but with ignition correction set to zero (a la jb4).

For reference, us 91oct guys, running just 14-15psi will see average knock ramp quickly from the default autotuning target of ~2 to a very aggressive 4-5 once timing correction is eliminated. Which would be 2 to 2.5 times more knock retard. Which is unfortunate when that is considered normal operating. The next step in the test is to go back to running normal ignition correction and raise boost until aggression climbs to this 4-5. You'll probably see that the Procede can run 1-2psi more boost, with the same average knock, than a it did when it simply raised boost with no ignition retard.

If anyone still, to this day, believes that proactive ignition retard has no effect on knock activity and engine safety margin, they are seriously deluded or just uneducated on basic engine tuning fundamentals. Running a tune without any form of ignition setpoint limiting is less desirable than running one with it. This is fact and can be proven with hard data by anyone with a CAN logging tool. Ignoring evidence and arguing otherwise only displays a lack of understanding or misinformed positive thinking.


Shiv, You are up almost as late as Terry lol


Assembling meth kits still?
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      12-10-2010, 05:38 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onefastman View Post
Its the same knock and for 99% of users it is not a issue so long as you follow the fricken directions and contact terry before upping anything and he gets back to you in 2 min any time of the day or year.

Also I ran high maps with no issues what so ever or knock codes as have many other users.
Please don't take this personally. But you are wrong with respect to everything you just said. First, knock does not result in a knock code unless it's very very serious. Usually a precursor to catastrophic engine failure (ask enrita). But make no mistake, the damaging effects of knock are cumulative. Minor knock over the course of 20k miles will easily induce as much wear as moderate/serious knock occurring over a shorter time span. So there is absolutely no argument that minimizing knock is the first and foremost goal of any competent engine tuner/EFI calibrator. This is fact.

Also fact is the effect ignition correction/setpoint limiting has on average knock. This is easy to quantify as I explained in my previous post. In octane limited conditions (ie, pump gas) running moderate to high boost, the less ignition correction you have, the more average knock you see.

So if minimal knock is desired AND the ability to reduce ignition advance setpoint reduces the severity/frequency of knock holding all other things equal (octane, boost, conditions, etc,.) one can conclude that the ability to reduce ignition advance setpoint when necessary is DESIRED. This has been proven over and over again on this forum. There is no "magic bullet" that would allow anyone to argue otherwise. Engine tuning fundaments are just that, fundamentals. Saying that one doesn't agree with it is like saying that one doesn't believe that 1+1=2.


Quote:
Originally Posted by onefastman View Post
Shiv, You are up almost as late as Terry lol
Assembling meth kits still?
I've up to my neck in meth kits. No time to sleep!
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      12-10-2010, 05:52 AM   #15
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I've up to my neck in meth kits. No time to sleep! [/quote]



Get some small children to make them



I will have to ask Terry about the knock issue. He has been 100% honest with me in the past as far as risk goes and no offense but you have a market to uphold where as I am just one customer (who doesnt even buy anything from him) so he has no incentive to be anything but.

This is just conjecture but seeing as there are so many jb3 n54 cars with higher milage out there and no one has had a failure or major problem aside from the guys who are pushing the limits what are the actual effects of "minor knock", if it exists (dont debate this as I am not making a fact statement of any sort)
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      12-10-2010, 06:09 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onefastman View Post
Get some small children to make them



I will have to ask Terry about the knock issue. He has been 100% honest with me in the past as far as risk goes and no offense but you have a market to uphold where as I am just one customer (who doesnt even buy anything from him) so he has no incentive to be anything but.

This is just conjecture but seeing as there are so many jb3 n54 cars with higher milage out there and no one has had a failure or major problem aside from the guys who are pushing the limits what are the actual effects of "minor knock", if it exists (dont debate this as I am not making a fact statement of any sort)


as u may know that people who had jb3 (enrita, Big Tom) they moved to v5 ask why
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      12-10-2010, 06:10 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onefastman View Post
I will have to ask Terry about the knock issue. He has been 100% honest with me in the past as far as risk goes and no offense but you have a market to uphold where as I am just one customer (who doesnt even buy anything from him) so he has no incentive to be anything but.
Instead of asking a tuner to defend the tune he sells, I suggest just doing a bit of homework, on your own, on the subject of knock and knock control in the context of a turbocharged application. This will tell you everything you need to know without even listening to a word from someone who has something to sell (myself included). There is no shortcut to learning. But the benefits are undeniable. Once you understand the basics, as many on this forum do, it's very easy to distinguish between fact and marketing-driven fantasy. There is no drama when you know the facts.

Shiv
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      12-10-2010, 06:12 AM   #18
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I will do my own research (as always) but like I said, terry has nothing to sell me.
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      12-10-2010, 07:10 AM   #19
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its not about selling something. Its more about giving advices and avoiding throwing 15K in the toilet because of a tune that cannot control timings

Minor knock events over time was most likely what caused Sevak engine failure and yes when you get the Glow ignition code is already to late, at least for it was for me.
Just run max map 7 on JB3 if you care about your engine.
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      12-10-2010, 07:22 AM   #20
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Early on I had several glow ignition codes but have not had one in over a year.

I typically run map7-9 daily with meth and shell 93. Maybe I should turn it down to 7 full time.
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      12-10-2010, 08:50 AM   #21
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On the JB4 alpha, the maximum boost target will always be 1/2psi less than the boost limit you set. So if you set the boost limit to 16psi then the target will never go above 15.5psi even if the map you are using is tuned for more. Glad to hear JB4 is running on pace even during alpha development.

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      12-10-2010, 09:03 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onefastman View Post
I will do my own research (as always) but like I said, terry has nothing to sell me.
I would certainly trying testing your self and not rely on anyone's word. You have already stated to rely on Terry but also suggest you always test on your own. If so, you would have witnessed an increases in DME timing cirrections; i.e. knock retard. In my testing, which all data was supplied for analysis, there was at least 2x the amount of corrections with the JB versus the PROcede.
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