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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > NA Engine (non-turbo) / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications > BS on WOT at idle...



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      02-07-2011, 04:49 PM   #1
allmotorh22
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BS on WOT at idle...

called it... only the first in the process of the many things I'm finding out about how to make power for this motor...

Sorry about that, thought I'd give the N/A forum something else to talk about rather than intake's and mufflers...



Busted! despite all the of theory and marketing that valvtronic know-it-alls regurgitate on the forums, at least we now know that the the throttle body on a Valvtronic does not stay WOT at Idle...
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      02-07-2011, 04:55 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allmotorh22 View Post
called it... only the first in the process of the many things I'm finding out about how to make power for this motor...

a little rant:
*(my very first post in e90post questioned: "why a 3 stage manifold? why not a bigger throttle body?" but ended up getting a lot of flack from the internet Valvetronic gurus*
Anyway, in true tuner fashion, I have since gotten a hold of an extra throttle body and a couple intake manifolds and will be doing some testing with a underrated but very capable Valvetronic tuner. Needless to say, I will have a few surprises for you guys in the near future. (the Honda scene doesn't call me allmotorj for nothing!...)

Sorry about that, thought I'd give the N/A forum something else to talk about rather than intake's and mufflers...



Busted! despite all the of theory and marketing that valvtronic know-it-alls regurgitate on the forums, at least we now know that the the throttle body on a Valvtronic does not stay WOT at Idle...
You could have just asked me that...

Im here to help is you need anything
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      02-07-2011, 05:02 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gavin@MMW View Post
You could have just asked me that...

Im here to help is you need anything
Right on Gavin, you've been a great help aswell! how're those headers coming? no rush, really, you give great deals!
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      02-07-2011, 05:12 PM   #4
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sounds interesting, good luck with it!
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      02-07-2011, 06:05 PM   #5
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So, does this mean the Dinan TB may be worth a look?
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      02-07-2011, 06:33 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by josephbet01 View Post
So, does this mean the Dinan TB may be worth a look?
I think so. the last known testing is ksfrogman back in 2007 who lost power ( probably because no one was available to tune the DME for it).
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      02-07-2011, 07:30 PM   #7
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I have quite a bit of experience with GM V8 LS engines (346, 406, 427) for what that's worth, and can tell you that just slapping a larger bore throttle body on ANY engine is not necessarily gonna increase HP.

I'm sure you know a system will only flow as much as the smallest part. So in addition to the larger throttle body, you will also need to make sure that the inlet tract, airbox, filter, MAF, & hose connection between MAF & TB flow at least, if not more, than the new larger TB.

And at some point, the intake will become the restriction and I'm not even going to go into the cam selection...

Reprogramming is a necessity to take advantage of a drastic increase in airflow, in GM engines the fuel maps must be altered accordingly to realize the stiochemtrtic AFR that yields the most HP, while still resisting detonation with the grade of gasoline you commonly use. I do all of my engine ECM tuning personally using HPTuners Software & a Mustang Dyno.

I would assume that any fuel injected engine would behave similarly.

And on the other end, since an engine is basically an air pump - you are now introducing greater volume of air in - you need to be able to move a greater volume of air out (proper sized headers-preferably long tube, proper sized exhaust piping).

I can't tell you how many times GM owners would go with the 'bigger is better' scenario, slap a huge bore TB on the car, with no other changes, and then wonder why there was absolutely no gain on the dyno - or actually hurt performance.

With your experience I'm sure you know there are quite a few things that need to all work in concert with one another to see actual appreciable gains in HP.

Not preaching, just stating what you prolly already know - but your post is fairly general & might tend to make people believe that you're gonna stick a massive bore TB on a BMW engine and see huge gains - which ain't gonna happen
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      02-07-2011, 09:49 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1QuikWS6 View Post
Not preaching, just stating what you prolly already know - but your post is fairly general
you are correct sir. I just choose to speak in generalities on here because I only share my deepest darkest engine building secrets with my friends on Facebook... (some of whom actually know what I'm talking about, lol)

ok fine, i can share this little teaser of me an my confidant (Mikey) on our little dyno day, (Mikey, please no divulging any information about my plans/set up, you popular guy you )

194.1 hp dynojet, single stage manifold


186.5 hp dynojet, untuned 3 stage manifold
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      02-07-2011, 09:51 PM   #9
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how in the world do you embed videos on here?
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      02-07-2011, 09:53 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allmotorh22 View Post
I think so. the last known testing is ksfrogman back in 2007 who lost power ( probably because no one was available to tune the DME for it).
Dinan's claim of 5hp is based on some pretty intensely controlled dyno testing. Someone claimed to have lost power but the car will gain and lose power from day to day without any mods and I'm pretty sure ksfrogman didn't go through as much trouble as Dinan did when he dynoed his car. 5 hp is such a small gain for there to be any required tuning. I believe that increase in airflow is still within the software's adjustment range for it's various parameters.
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      02-07-2011, 10:05 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allmotorh22 View Post
ok fine, i can share this little teaser of me an my confidant (Mikey) on our little dyno day, (Mikey, please no divulging any information about my plans/set up, you popular guy you )
haha, no problem dude!! I was waiting for you to make a post about it anyway. I think people will be interested in what you are doing.

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      02-07-2011, 10:14 PM   #12
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haha, no problem dude!!
thanks Bro!
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      02-07-2011, 10:26 PM   #13
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Interesting... Some people were reporting gains with the manifold on. I've always said you need the tune for that to work properly. Now, even if there were gains with this, that GIANT dip right at about 4000 will almost certainly make your car slower. I'm wondering if it goes away if you drive it for a while.

Edit:

One more thing. Ask your tuner something for me. Is there any way to disable that stupid "soft" lift in the throttle programming. It drives me insane! If my car understeers I lift to get the nose back in. This car will lift so slowly that car car keeps understeering... Usually toward a rigid barrier. Turning DSC off won't disable that feature. I know it's there for idiots who lift on on/off ramps in the rain and spin, but I'm not a bumbling idiot. Or at least I haven't been diagnosed yet.
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      02-07-2011, 11:05 PM   #14
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we were able to get a baseline dyno vs. an untuned 3 stage IM dyno. there are some decent gains to be had without the tune. I left the chart on my work pc, but the gains are mostly in the lower rpms, and then again above 4300rpm.

There is a dip, but it's in a small part of the rpm band. in my case (steptronic trans) I hardly ever feel it, because the engine is below that point in normal driving, and when I get on the throttle, the trans downshifts, and I'm usually above that range. With a 6MT, I'd imagine you'd feel it a lot more than I do though.

but the flash makes such a difference, it's really not worth it to do the manifold swap without it.
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      02-08-2011, 12:33 PM   #15
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Alright, so an untuned 3-stage manifold is a loss of 8hp? How is that possible?

Also waiting to see some "after" dynos
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      02-08-2011, 12:50 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e90pilot View Post
Interesting... Some people were reporting gains with the manifold on. I've always said you need the tune for that to work properly. Now, even if there were gains with this, that GIANT dip right at about 4000 will almost certainly make your car slower. I'm wondering if it goes away if you drive it for a while.

Edit:

One more thing. Ask your tuner something for me. Is there any way to disable that stupid "soft" lift in the throttle programming. It drives me insane! If my car understeers I lift to get the nose back in. This car will lift so slowly that car car keeps understeering... Usually toward a rigid barrier. Turning DSC off won't disable that feature. I know it's there for idiots who lift on on/off ramps in the rain and spin, but I'm not a bumbling idiot. Or at least I haven't been diagnosed yet.
Aint that the truth. LOL
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      02-08-2011, 12:55 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IancoleTX View Post
Alright, so an untuned 3-stage manifold is a loss of 8hp? How is that possible?

Also waiting to see some "after" dynos
no, don't worry, I had a slight tune on it. The 3 stage manifold with no tune produced ~6-10 up top vs the stock 325i baseline, I just made 8hp more on top of that.
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      02-08-2011, 01:02 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IancoleTX View Post
Alright, so an untuned 3-stage manifold is a loss of 8hp? How is that possible?

Also waiting to see some "after" dynos

No, you didn't listen to the audio during the dyno run. That is a TUNED 325i-stock-manifold vs an UNTUNED 325i-3-stage manifold. the tune on the 325i is a very rough of-the-shelf tune though, and needs more work. But yes a tuned car will make more power than a stock car with the 3-stage manifold.


AllmotorH22 and I were able to compare our dyno runs when he was untuned, and with me untuned with the 3-stage.

UNTUNED baselines show the 3-stage picking up ~9whp and ~10wtq PEAK, but the biggest gains were in the upper midrange, which were 17whp and 15+wtq. Also, there was a gain of about 15+wtq below 2500rpm. But there is a dip in power from about 3800-4300rpm (that's why you need a tune later). This is on a 325i btw.

basically, you are looking at double-digit increases in both HP and TQ from 4500rpm to 6000rpm
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      02-08-2011, 01:06 PM   #19
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Did you get the car to flag the manifold if its unplugged?

or are you attempting to flash it to 330 software?

Or are you just tuning for fun to see how far you can push the N/a Motor?

so many questions... sorry.
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      02-08-2011, 01:19 PM   #20
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I'm running on stock 325i software, which doesn't care if the DISA are plugged in or not. They definitely work though (tested the valves out in the open before installing them in the manifold.

They operate on an RPM signal, and I really don't think they feed back to the DME.
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      02-08-2011, 01:20 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gavin@MMW View Post
Did you get the car to flag the manifold if its unplugged?
Well, I think the proper way to do a 3 stage manifold swap is to get corresponding DME, CAS and Key fob all from the same salvaged 330i.

I just want to know if a real 330i will throw a code if a disa is unplugged.
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      02-08-2011, 01:23 PM   #22
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If I had a 330 I would pull the plug for you, maybe someone can step up for the community and pull a wire out.
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