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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Flash vs Piggyback - Where we stand today.



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      01-24-2011, 10:04 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by COBB Tuning View Post
As well as different types of actual events that get covered under the "knock" moniker. Knock and pre-ignition are two very different things

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KEY DEFINITIONS
Detonation: Detonation is the spontaneous combustion of the end-gas (remaining fuel/air mixture) in the chamber. It always occurs after normal combustion is initiated by the spark plug. The initial combustion at the spark plug is followed by a normal combustion burn. For some reason, likely heat and pressure, the end gas in the chamber spontaneously combusts. The key point here is that detonation occurs after you have initiated the normal combustion with the spark plug.

Pre-ignition: Pre-ignition is defined as the ignition of the mixture prior to the spark plug firing. Anytime something causes the mixture in the chamber to ignite prior to the spark plug event it is classified as pre-ignition.

The two are completely different and abnormal phenomenon.
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      01-25-2011, 10:53 AM   #68
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KEY DEFINITIONS
Detonation: Detonation is the spontaneous combustion of the end-gas (remaining fuel/air mixture) in the chamber. It always occurs after normal combustion is initiated by the spark plug. The initial combustion at the spark plug is followed by a normal combustion burn. For some reason, likely heat and pressure, the end gas in the chamber spontaneously combusts. The key point here is that detonation occurs after you have initiated the normal combustion with the spark plug.

Pre-ignition: Pre-ignition is defined as the ignition of the mixture prior to the spark plug firing. Anytime something causes the mixture in the chamber to ignite prior to the spark plug event it is classified as pre-ignition.

The two are completely different and abnormal phenomenon.
Knock can also occur after the ignition, the flame front causes compression the gasses in front of it, this compression can heat the gas until it reaches the activation energy required for combustion. This portion of the air/fuel mixture will react before being touched by the flame front.

Last edited by mtlr; 01-25-2011 at 11:54 AM. Reason: Grammar.
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      01-25-2011, 11:21 AM   #69
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JB4 and Procede are extremely similar, despite the marketing. People with no technical knowledge will succumb to marketing, but the reality is that they are very similar except the CPS offsetting of the Procede which not full timing control.
I read the whole thread, and agreed with most of everything. Learned a thing or 2 as well. However, this is the best post of the whole thread by far.

Classic!
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      01-25-2011, 11:29 AM   #70
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I read the whole thread, and agreed with most of everything. Learned a thing or 2 as well. However, this is the best post of the whole thread by far.

Classic!
That guy is the best, it's so predictable! haha
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      01-25-2011, 12:30 PM   #71
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Exactly! Doesn't the AP and GIAC flash work as the DME was designed? Or am I wrong in saying this?
Right, all flash work as the DME was designed (unless substantial changes to the logic of the map)
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      01-25-2011, 03:08 PM   #72
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I don't know where you've been reading but there is no way the jb3 is superior to the Procede.
time slips would disagree
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      01-25-2011, 03:14 PM   #73
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time slips would disagree
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      01-25-2011, 03:29 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by FORCED AIR View Post
time slips would disagree
Actually if you remove any timeslip run at Sacramento Raceway (shiv, startupjunkie, hotrod) they are all similar. Or if you want to include them in the conversation, subtract 2.5 - 3mph from their trap speeds.

And I'll even show u a timeslip of someone who ran FASTER on Procede over JB3... Look up yandyr in the 135i section of dragtimes. He went from 12.0's to 11.7's, trapping 2 mph higher when he went from JB3 to Procede.
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      01-25-2011, 03:33 PM   #75
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time slips would disagree
By that logic the JB3 is superior to the JB4 as well.
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      01-25-2011, 06:20 PM   #76
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What we are starting to find out through other threads is having a flash is conveinant, fast, easy and very user friendly. Now like the post said, the Flash is a generic map that is utilized with many vehicles = Safe, Generic and may not perform to the best of its ability.

The Flash's and Flash Tuner's, unless dyno tuned will never perform to the optimal capability of the car, which is always safe but to us car guys is not the same. Following up with other Threads, these flashs have the capability of returning it back to stock parameters, but BMW is smart and have in essence a "black box" that records valuable information. This information CAN NOT be erased or even tampered with. So raising BOOST will be recorded in the "black box", if they wanted to pull that information for whatever reason.

GIAC just ran into a problem trying to reload the factory files back into the DME but with the new BMW update means a new part number was issued for that DME...
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      01-25-2011, 09:27 PM   #77
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Pardon my stupid question, but why is the main focus only on 335 models? Is it not possible to tune a 328, or 330 whether it be custom or with a chip?
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      01-25-2011, 09:33 PM   #78
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Pardon my stupid question, but why is the main focus only on 335 models? Is it not possible to tune a 328, or 330 whether it be custom or with a chip?
no worries - naturally aspirated cars are not able to make power easily - they require heavy modifications to make even slightly substantial numbers - the n54 being twin turbo allows easy gains because the turbos move a fair deal of air at higher boost levels equating to great #s on the dyno
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      01-26-2011, 01:43 AM   #79
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Pardon my stupid question, but why is the main focus only on 335 models? Is it not possible to tune a 328, or 330 whether it be custom or with a chip?
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Turbo / FI Engine and 335i - 335d Tuning / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications >
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      01-26-2011, 08:27 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by htt760 View Post
What we are starting to find out through other threads is having a flash is conveinant, fast, easy and very user friendly. Now like the post said, the Flash is a generic map that is utilized with many vehicles = Safe, Generic and may not perform to the best of its ability.

The Flash's and Flash Tuner's, unless dyno tuned will never perform to the optimal capability of the car, which is always safe but to us car guys is not the same. Following up with other Threads, these flashs have the capability of returning it back to stock parameters, but BMW is smart and have in essence a "black box" that records valuable information. This information CAN NOT be erased or even tampered with. So raising BOOST will be recorded in the "black box", if they wanted to pull that information for whatever reason.

GIAC just ran into a problem trying to reload the factory files back into the DME but with the new BMW update means a new part number was issued for that DME...
If the black box theory is true, every tune will be recorded, not just flashes. My car has been to the dealer many times with the flash and never had a issue. Flashes are attractive to me because the DME works like it was designed to, can there be more power? Probably, and as this platform evolves you will most likely be able to get a custom flash for your car at the shop. Cobb is already talking about offering that.

GIAC will crack the new file as soon as they get there hands on a DME that has it, no big deal. I know of at least one of the GIAC guys owns a 335, I was told i'm actually running the same Stg 1 map/software as he is.
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      01-27-2011, 10:42 PM   #81
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If you erase all the codes using a BT Scan Tool, will it guarantee erased codes? I feel like seem to have the least popular software (AA Xede) and have trouble with reference to erasing codes- I love that is has a on/off switch, but don't know if it get recorded.
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      02-15-2012, 11:20 AM   #82
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i know im going to probably going to get shit on for this but whats the difference between flash and piggyback? i did research and it got me here but i still am unclear
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      02-15-2012, 11:30 AM   #83
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i know im going to probably going to get shit on for this but whats the difference between flash and piggyback? i did research and it got me here but i still am unclear
A piggyback physically plugs into the DME in the car and alters signals to achieve desired results. A flash reprograms the DME logic/tables to achive desired results. It's normally done by using either the OBD2 port or a "bench load" where your ECU is mailed to the flash supplier.

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD do not ask which is better.

Last edited by rader1; 02-15-2012 at 12:18 PM.
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      02-15-2012, 11:32 AM   #84
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FOR THE LOVE OF GOD do not ask which is better.
Because the answer is so obvious and commonly agreed upon.
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      02-15-2012, 12:20 PM   #85
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Because the answer is so obvious and commonly agreed upon.
You said it, not me
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      02-15-2012, 12:43 PM   #86
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i know im going to probably going to get shit on for this but whats the difference between flash and piggyback? i did research and it got me here but i still am unclear
Think of the piggyback as the man in middle. It reads from sensors, does its thing and then sends the resulting signal (with its alteration) to the ecu.
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      02-15-2012, 12:44 PM   #87
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Because the answer is so obvious and commonly agreed upon.
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You said it, not me
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      02-15-2012, 12:54 PM   #88
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I saw this thread resurrected and I immediately double checked my 'CAPS LOCK' button and got my Internet Argument 101 Textbook out of the middle drawer.
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