E90Post
 


Horizon LED
 
BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > BIMMERPOST Universal Forums > General Automotive (non-BMW) Talk + Photos/Videos > Audi RS3



Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      03-08-2011, 10:45 AM   #45
footie
Major General
footie's Avatar
No_Country
154
Rep
7,507
Posts

 
Drives: ????????????
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: BMW M3 will get a V6TT

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2008 E92 M3  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bavarian III View Post
Eh, also noticed the 5 cylinders. Why the hell does that sort of engine even exist? I'm turned off.
Clearly you having hear or experienced this engine as of yet.

All I can say is you will love it's note and plain dead for it's poke because this is one really special engine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ptack View Post
Thanks Footie. Though I'm sure enough money and horsepower can address a lot of things, it seems like the A3 is starting as a sow's ear with a weight distrabution that is far from ideal for a sports car. Probably part of the reason for the extravagent cost is that Audi has to first dig itself out of it's own hole before it even makes any real progress in terms of performance.
It's a misconception that the A3 chassis is a poor one, mainly rumors spread by BMW fans but the reality is that it generally outperforms the equivelant 1 series with similar power to weight which suggests people need to stop listening to rumors.

http://www.fastestlaps.com/compariso...udi_s3_8p.html

Facts are that the A3 will understeer at the absolute limit and quattro can only curb this ever so slightly which is why Audi fitted this tyres combination which might appear odd at first but actually works surprisingly well.
Appreciate 0
      03-08-2011, 12:11 PM   #46
pixelblue
Colonel
pixelblue's Avatar
37
Rep
2,236
Posts

 
Drives: the silver bullet
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: northern virginia

iTrader: (2)

Garage List
2010 135i  [4.37]
I had a B6 S4 prior to my 135. Loved the fit & finish and overall quality but I can tell you my 135 is a far more dynamic driving experience. mind you I have close to $10k invested in my suspension. I just don't understand why audi insists on placing the engine a head of the front wheels. major design flaw imo
__________________
"I would quote everything pixelblue said, but you've already read it. Take it from someone who's put the 1 through its paces"
Appreciate 0
      03-08-2011, 02:07 PM   #47
footie
Major General
footie's Avatar
No_Country
154
Rep
7,507
Posts

 
Drives: ????????????
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: BMW M3 will get a V6TT

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2008 E92 M3  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelblue View Post
I had a B6 S4 prior to my 135. Loved the fit & finish and overall quality but I can tell you my 135 is a far more dynamic driving experience. mind you I have close to $10k invested in my suspension. I just don't understand why audi insists on placing the engine a head of the front wheels. major design flaw imo
Well BMW have everyone brainwashed in to thinking their setup is right and that their engine placement is vital to driving dynamics but it's total and utter BS, Porsche place the 911's engine well beyond the rear axle but through engineering they have arguably the best dynamics of all.

What BMW do regarding where their engine placement works for them but their finer dynamics is more to do with their rwd setup than anything else because I'm not convinced the x-drive cars offer any better dynamics than quattro ones, in fact I rate them worse.
Appreciate 0
      03-08-2011, 02:31 PM   #48
pixelblue
Colonel
pixelblue's Avatar
37
Rep
2,236
Posts

 
Drives: the silver bullet
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: northern virginia

iTrader: (2)

Garage List
2010 135i  [4.37]
Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
Well BMW have everyone brainwashed in to thinking their setup is right and that their engine placement is vital to driving dynamics but it's total and utter BS, Porsche place the 911's engine well beyond the rear axle but through engineering they have arguably the best dynamics of all.

What BMW do regarding where their engine placement works for them but their finer dynamics is more to do with their rwd setup than anything else because I'm not convinced the x-drive cars offer any better dynamics than quattro ones, in fact I rate them worse.
first off, I have no brand loyalty therefore your brainwash theory doesn't apply here. your porsche analogy works up to a point because of porsches rwd set up. however, even this set up has it's draw backs. I am sure you are aware of porsches mid-turn throttle off over steer issues. had a friend wreck his cayman S on the track right in front of me because of the same issue (I know mid engine setup). of course driver error played a major role but generally speaking front engine rwd setup is the proper setup for motorsports. audi makes great cars and I am a fan but until they address the front axle engine overhang I just can't consider such a setup for serious motorsports action.
__________________
"I would quote everything pixelblue said, but you've already read it. Take it from someone who's put the 1 through its paces"
Appreciate 0
      03-08-2011, 08:39 PM   #49
ptack
Brigadier General
ptack's Avatar
United_States
47
Rep
4,267
Posts

 
Drives: 135i
Join Date: May 2008
Location: NJ

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2008 135i  [3.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
Clearly you having hear or experienced this engine as of yet.

All I can say is you will love it's note and plain dead for it's poke because this is one really special engine.



It's a misconception that the A3 chassis is a poor one, mainly rumors spread by BMW fans but the reality is that it generally outperforms the equivelant 1 series with similar power to weight which suggests people need to stop listening to rumors.

http://www.fastestlaps.com/compariso...udi_s3_8p.html

Facts are that the A3 will understeer at the absolute limit and quattro can only curb this ever so slightly which is why Audi fitted this tyres combination which might appear odd at first but actually works surprisingly well.
The problems or challenges just get magnified as you try to push performance. I completely disagree that the forward engine placement is performance neutral. It's more to overcome. That doesn't mean you can't do it, but it help explains why it might make a hatchback cost $50k.
__________________
135i, SGM, Coral, Sport Package, Auto, Premium Hifi, USB/ipod, Apex EC-7s, PPK Stage II
Appreciate 0
      03-08-2011, 09:31 PM   #50
Year's_End
RWD only.
Year's_End's Avatar
United_States
329
Rep
12,334
Posts

 
Drives: '08 E92 335i
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: St. Pete, FL

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
Well BMW have everyone brainwashed in to thinking their setup is right and that their engine placement is vital to driving dynamics but it's total and utter BS, Porsche place the 911's engine well beyond the rear axle but through engineering they have arguably the best dynamics of all.

What BMW do regarding where their engine placement works for them but their finer dynamics is more to do with their rwd setup than anything else because I'm not convinced the x-drive cars offer any better dynamics than quattro ones, in fact I rate them worse.
I can't agree with your comparison of BMW's FR to Porsche's RR setup. The fact that the engines are based around entirely different ends of the cars makes it impossible to draw a comparison of the effects their exact placement relative to the axles might have.

Having a majority of the weight behind the center of the car, no matter how big or small, would be more optimal than having it over the front. The more forward that mass happens to be, which having an engine directly over or past the front axle will easily create, is inferior. You know better than anyone that Audi's AWD tech and creative use of differentials allows them to overcome these issues under situations involving throttle, but the absolute limits will end up in time-sapping understeer more often than not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelblue View Post
first off, I have no brand loyalty therefore your brainwash theory doesn't apply here. your porsche analogy works up to a point because of porsches rwd set up. however, even this set up has it's draw backs. I am sure you are aware of porsches mid-turn throttle off over steer issues. had a friend wreck his cayman S on the track right in front of me because of the same issue (I know mid engine setup). of course driver error played a major role but generally speaking front engine rwd setup is the proper setup for motorsports. audi makes great cars and I am a fan but until they address the front axle engine overhang I just can't consider such a setup for serious motorsports action.
Can't agree with this either. All of the top-performing motorsports incorporate mid-engined, RWD setups. Balance is optimal, typically being a little rear-biased, with better traction for the rear wheels and better overall braking capabilities and more neutral cornering attitudes.

Front-engined RWD setups are best for drifting. I can't see that setup being superior to any MR setup on asphalt from a speed standpoint.
__________________
E92 335i: Space Grey|Coral Red|Aluminum Trim

Future Ride: 2015 Mustang GT Premium |Guard|401A|PP|Recaros|6MT
Appreciate 0
      03-08-2011, 09:47 PM   #51
pixelblue
Colonel
pixelblue's Avatar
37
Rep
2,236
Posts

 
Drives: the silver bullet
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: northern virginia

iTrader: (2)

Garage List
2010 135i  [4.37]
^ I agree in theory mid-engine setup is ideal but if you follow any of the FIA GT races or even ALMS races you can't draw a distinct advantage to the mid-engine setups. Corvettes, Astons, M3 & even the GTRs compete and win just as much if not more than the Ferraris, Lambos or the Ford GTs. although the Maserati MC12s has been the car to beat in the last few years
__________________
"I would quote everything pixelblue said, but you've already read it. Take it from someone who's put the 1 through its paces"

Last edited by pixelblue; 03-08-2011 at 09:54 PM.
Appreciate 0
      03-09-2011, 06:25 AM   #52
footie
Major General
footie's Avatar
No_Country
154
Rep
7,507
Posts

 
Drives: ????????????
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: BMW M3 will get a V6TT

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2008 E92 M3  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelblue View Post
first off, I have no brand loyalty therefore your brainwash theory doesn't apply here. your porsche analogy works up to a point because of porsches rwd set up. however, even this set up has it's draw backs. I am sure you are aware of porsches mid-turn throttle off over steer issues. had a friend wreck his cayman S on the track right in front of me because of the same issue (I know mid engine setup). of course driver error played a major role but generally speaking front engine rwd setup is the proper setup for motorsports. audi makes great cars and I am a fan but until they address the front axle engine overhang I just can't consider such a setup for serious motorsports action.
You talk about the 911 throttle lift off oversteer as if it defined the car, sorry but this isn't as noticeable as you are suggesting here, the 997Mk2 is a perfectly behaved sportscar now which was what I meant by engineered, Porsche have engineered the natural flaws out of it's chassis and now many regard it as the greatest driver's car of them all. As for the Cayman, well driver error was totally to blame there and it's mid-engine layout was not the cause, I know as I have spent time with Porsche, on their track with their tutors throwing every possible situation at the car and see what happens, with the Cayman I can't think of one car that behaves better or that I would trust at the limit.

Next the engine placement of the RS3, it isn't hanging out in front of the axle, it rests on the axle itself. Now to the whole fwd not being considered for serious motorsport action, hello, have you ever heard of the British Touring Car Championship (BTCC) or World Touring Car Championship (WTCC) both of these championships field fwd and rwd cars that complete in the same category, if you take the time and read the results over the years you will see that fwd is very competitive indeed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ptack View Post
The problems or challenges just get magnified as you try to push performance. I completely disagree that the forward engine placement is performance neutral. It's more to overcome. That doesn't mean you can't do it, but it help explains why it might make a hatchback cost $50k.
Not what I said, yes the RS3 will naturally understeer and that it's quattro system will improve this but only up to a point which is why they are using the tyre setup they are and it will behave much better than you would ever have thought possible. But ultimately if you prefer the feel of a rwd car then the RS3 won't appeal to you at all, but if you are more open-minded then you may well like what you see.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikkahtropolis View Post
I can't agree with your comparison of BMW's FR to Porsche's RR setup. The fact that the engines are based around entirely different ends of the cars makes it impossible to draw a comparison of the effects their exact placement relative to the axles might have.
It was a simple example of how engine placement isn't as important as what BMW have tried to suggest in all it's years of marketing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikkahtropolis View Post
Having a majority of the weight behind the center of the car, no matter how big or small, would be more optimal than having it over the front. The more forward that mass happens to be, which having an engine directly over or past the front axle will easily create, is inferior. You know better than anyone that Audi's AWD tech and creative use of differentials allows them to overcome these issues under situations involving throttle, but the absolute limits will end up in time-sapping understeer more often than not.
Having the weight in the middle or closer to the middle is better, no denying that, though it's not to say that any weight position can't be overcome to achieve the desire results. There is a sweet spot that is much greater than most would think and it's in either direction, the TT-RS has shown that this nose heavy setup can achieve blindingly good results, on par with the M3 and extremely close to the Cayman S, so we all need to accept that in terms of lap time the weight distribution isn't that vital at all.

I will give in that AWD cars in generally will ultimately understeer, though not all, but definitely the ones which place the engine in the front will. Though you need to look at the data and see when the understeer occurs and at what speeds, look at the lateral-g data for an M3 or TT-RS and see which grips the longest because it's the nose that eventually lets go on both, I think you will be surprised by the results.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikkahtropolis View Post
Can't agree with this either. All of the top-performing motorsports incorporate mid-engined, RWD setups. Balance is optimal, typically being a little rear-biased, with better traction for the rear wheels and better overall braking capabilities and more neutral cornering attitudes.

Front-engined RWD setups are best for drifting. I can't see that setup being superior to any MR setup on asphalt from a speed standpoint.
You are 100% right here and this holds true even when discussing AWD cars. Front-engined RWD is great for drifting and at this I personally thing BMW's 50/50 setup is most desirable which is why it might be so appealing as people (especially the younger ones) love to show off, I know I did a few years ago.
Appreciate 0
      03-10-2011, 08:52 PM   #53
A4rings
First Lieutenant
6
Rep
354
Posts

 
Drives: 07 Space 335i
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: SBizzle

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bavarian III View Post
Eh, also noticed the 5 cylinders. Why the hell does that sort of engine even exist? I'm turned off.
Haaaa you must not be into audis at all huh? what about the inline 5 turns you off? the fact that it sounds 100x better than a n54/55?
Appreciate 0
      03-11-2011, 01:59 PM   #54
Verbiage
I swag on 'em.
Verbiage's Avatar
Jamaica
117
Rep
8,143
Posts

 
Drives: N54B30
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: MD

iTrader: (5)

Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelblue View Post
That's the only redeeming thing about this car. The engine is basically 1/2 of the V10 engine. I think it won the engine of the year title last year
Word?

Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
Clearly you having hear or experienced this engine as of yet.

All I can say is you will love it's note and plain dead for it's poke because this is one really special engine.
I think it was a bias my dad had underscored a while back about not liking 5 cylinder engines lol. So that was my first reaction. But I'd be more that willing to give this a shot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by A4rings View Post
Haaaa you must not be into audis at all huh? what about the inline 5 turns you off? the fact that it sounds 100x better than a n54/55?
You must not have read my previous posts about liking the car lol. and 100x better is a bit.. much? You must not be into BMW's at all, huh?
__________________
Peep my music shit here
Appreciate 0
      03-11-2011, 02:11 PM   #55
footie
Major General
footie's Avatar
No_Country
154
Rep
7,507
Posts

 
Drives: ????????????
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: BMW M3 will get a V6TT

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2008 E92 M3  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bavarian III View Post
I think it was a bias my dad had underscored a while back about not liking 5 cylinder engines lol. So that was my first reaction. But I'd be more that willing to give this a shot.
Hope I didn't come across as ill-mannered, just saying that when you get to actually hear it for real it's quite memorable and then when you get to experience that punch of it's acceleration you WILL be won over.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bavarian III View Post
You must not have read my previous posts about liking the car lol. and 100x better is a bit.. much? You must not be into BMW's at all, huh?
Yeah a 100 times better is a bit mental but it is sonically better no doubt.
Appreciate 0
      03-12-2011, 01:27 AM   #56
wuufer001
Colonel
wuufer001's Avatar
Taiwan
55
Rep
2,305
Posts

 
Drives: 2006 E90 M/T
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: DFW, TX//Taiwan//South Africa

iTrader: (5)

Garage List
2006 325i  [4.67]
looks sweet for a little car
those seats don't look comfortable but surely looks like it can hug you real tight
__________________
Appreciate 0
      03-13-2011, 01:04 PM   #57
Verbiage
I swag on 'em.
Verbiage's Avatar
Jamaica
117
Rep
8,143
Posts

 
Drives: N54B30
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: MD

iTrader: (5)

Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
Hope I didn't come across as ill-mannered, just saying that when you get to actually hear it for real it's quite memorable and then when you get to experience that punch of it's acceleration you WILL be won over.
No worries, man.

I hope to experience it one day, I'm sure it would be a blast!

Quote:
Yeah a 100 times better is a bit mental but it is sonically better no doubt.
__________________
Peep my music shit here
Appreciate 0
      03-15-2011, 12:29 PM   #58
henry418
Captain
henry418's Avatar
17
Rep
739
Posts

 
Drives: 2011 335xi Coupe
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Vancouver, Canada

iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tvrfan View Post
I completely understand what they're saying
Appreciate 0
      03-15-2011, 12:38 PM   #59
ptack
Brigadier General
ptack's Avatar
United_States
47
Rep
4,267
Posts

 
Drives: 135i
Join Date: May 2008
Location: NJ

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2008 135i  [3.00]
I understood the words "extra power", but that's about it.
__________________
135i, SGM, Coral, Sport Package, Auto, Premium Hifi, USB/ipod, Apex EC-7s, PPK Stage II
Appreciate 0
      03-16-2011, 02:45 PM   #60
Verbiage
I swag on 'em.
Verbiage's Avatar
Jamaica
117
Rep
8,143
Posts

 
Drives: N54B30
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: MD

iTrader: (5)

__________________
Peep my music shit here
Appreciate 0
      03-16-2011, 02:46 PM   #61
Verbiage
I swag on 'em.
Verbiage's Avatar
Jamaica
117
Rep
8,143
Posts

 
Drives: N54B30
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: MD

iTrader: (5)

I am not a fan of the black with red time attack. At all.

Motor Trend has also reviewed it.

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...ive/index.html
__________________
Peep my music shit here
Appreciate 0
      03-16-2011, 03:40 PM   #62
Robert
Major General
116
Rep
6,902
Posts

 
Drives: 135i, current is350
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Socal

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelblue View Post
I had a B6 S4 prior to my 135. Loved the fit & finish and overall quality but I can tell you my 135 is a far more dynamic driving experience. mind you I have close to $10k invested in my suspension. I just don't understand why audi insists on placing the engine a head of the front wheels. major design flaw imo
I think that's the 10k upgrade doing the talking. My stock 135i's suspension were good comparatively against other luxury cars but it was by no means good for a sports car.
__________________
- There's nothing in my pocket other than knives and lint
Appreciate 0
      03-16-2011, 04:31 PM   #63
pixelblue
Colonel
pixelblue's Avatar
37
Rep
2,236
Posts

 
Drives: the silver bullet
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: northern virginia

iTrader: (2)

Garage List
2010 135i  [4.37]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert View Post
I think that's the 10k upgrade doing the talking. My stock 135i's suspension were good comparatively against other luxury cars but it was by no means good for a sports car.
agreed. my car feels like a totally different car now but somehow the rwd experience is way more exciting
__________________
"I would quote everything pixelblue said, but you've already read it. Take it from someone who's put the 1 through its paces"
Appreciate 0
      03-16-2011, 05:46 PM   #64
Raine
Captain
Raine's Avatar
Canada
17
Rep
843
Posts

 
Drives: '11 E82, '04 E60
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Toronto

iTrader: (3)

Apparently it's 70k USD LOL
__________________
AW/Coral Red | Premium | Sport | HK Sound | AA Tune | E93 M3 Front Sway | BMW Performance Exhaust
Appreciate 0
      03-16-2011, 05:53 PM   #65
Garduna
Brigadier General
Garduna's Avatar
Canada
51
Rep
4,009
Posts

 
Drives: 128i Sedona Red
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Toronto

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raine View Post
Apparently it's 70k USD LOL
That's a direct conversion from the euro cost. I honestly don't get why so many people get the this confusion of trying to figure out a north american cost with a euro/dollar conversion. That is never the case and it is a guarantee that our prices over here in NA will always be better priced than that of our European counterparts.

-_-;

Last edited by Garduna; 03-17-2011 at 09:14 AM.
Appreciate 0
      03-17-2011, 04:33 AM   #66
footie
Major General
footie's Avatar
No_Country
154
Rep
7,507
Posts

 
Drives: ????????????
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: BMW M3 will get a V6TT

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2008 E92 M3  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raine View Post
Apparently it's 70k USD LOL
Where did you puck that price from, never mind I don't want to know.

Anyway, not on the Autocar website review of the RS3 but in the magazine article is the most revealing statement of all about the abilities of the RS3.

"I'd bet that on a road like this, an equally matched driver in a BMW M3 would struggle to see which way it had gone."

I've made this very argument about all RS models against their M model equivalents but was laughed it, well now Autocar are making the same sweeping statement and who's laughing now.
Appreciate 0
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:50 AM.




e90post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST